That's just it, there was a witness: Dyus.

And Haskill for that matter.

One thing to consider is that indisputably you do indeed walk out of the Shivering Isles decked to the nines with new and powerful weapons, so at least something tangible did, indeed, happen there.

I'm not imagining my full madness armor or sword of jyggalag.

Or are you really out of that door? How can you be 100% sure that your eyes have not deceived you. In a land of complete madness, do you not find it strange that you are the only sane one roaming around? And yet, you were pronounced the Madgod at the end. It may actually be that you are running around naked, with a can on your head, and you are imagining everything. Oh, and those monsters and dungeons you are beating? Those may just be household items you are breaking, and you are actually inside your home. And the door leading back to Nirn could just be the door outside.

Remember, this is Sheogorath's land. You could just be completely delusional and this whole thing is a giant illusion.

EDIT: The only thing I can definitively say is that the CoC is completely out of the picture, and we may not know of his/her existence until the next game, or a dev comes along and tells us. Jyggy ends up with his own shrine, we can take what happened in SI with face value. If rumors appear that the CoC went inside some strange door and never came out, and there are no jyggy shrines, it could still be thought he is stark raving mad in SI, or he is the Madgod, and Jyggy just doesn't have a shrine yet.

EDIT2: Also, is that little passage about the Kajiit or something who partly defiled the CoC's statue, is that considered canon? I forgot the other details, other than that part. I think the statue was graffiti with the words "Skooma Cat"

you could be right about that!, like what happened to the others who went into the Madgod's realm, they lost their mind because they seen some crazy butt ugly stuff in their, and maybe the CoC did lose his mind and is roaming around somewhere around Cyrodiil.

You could, but it does strike me as rather unlikely. I could buy full well that you're insane, and when you leave you're marching around thinking you're Sheogorath, but you're otherwise marching around Cyrodiil behaving like a normal person...who thinks he's Sheogorath.

He is not a Daedra, but he is the god of that realm. Sheogorath isn't present from what we can see, and the Champion wields the "Heart" of the realm, the http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/si13.shtml. I think what the dev was telling us with the story was, that the Champ did what Tribunal did, he assumed the absent god's powers through the realm's heart: " 'But I'm not a Daedric prince.'
'True, but perhaps you can hold the throne -- provided that you possess the proper symbol of office.' "

God? Yes, we already knew that from the other instances in the game.

Daedra? No, and there is no mention of becoming a Daedra, but rather the Madgod. Holding the throne until he is reunited with his realm and staff again (which he won't be for quite sometime, as Jyggalag hates that place). Either way, a mad illusion or stewardship, is fine.

So part of my question will he live forever? (like the Tribunal) or will a new madgod have to be elected every hundred or so years?

We'll have to see about new pretenders :shrug:

Yes. Unchallenged, in the realm he is revered as Madgod, he will reign until Jyggalag is sealed once more, and Sheogorath is reunited with his pimp dadday cane.

Very nice. But why do you think Jyggalag is going to be cursed or sealed again or whatever? Is it mentioned anywhere that if he was released from Sheogorath that he'll be cursed again?

Why was he originally trapped in a bi-polar form? Was his order spreading too much and the other princes got pissed?

No it isn't, but I think it will be the task of the others to bind him again. It shouldn't prove a difficulty, because he is so damn predictable. The only problem is, he knows them as well.

Yes, that is the simple version of why. I think the dev's intent was the conspiracy to bind Jyggalag was a mirror of the Aedra's conspiracy to bind Lorkhan. Sheogorath is to Jyggalag as the moons are to Lorkhan.

Or perhaps when he dies in the real world he'll race to Oblivion, take the throne and never be able to leave if it isn't raining? Just a guess, since that's all we have at the moment: guessing.


Actually, I don't think Jyggy's a threat for now. after all, if one of his calculations was wrong, he'd need to recalculate the new variables that had arisen and how they will effect things from now on. Or perhaps now that he and Sheogorath exist seperately (or might, anyways. Again, guessing) he'll be forever stuck recalculatiing as personal choice cntinually defies his ideas.

As for your second statement, that's very clever. And guess what, even if it wasn't the dev's intention, it may well be the truth now.

"what matters in a story is not it's truth, but if people believe it."
-I forget who said it.

This looks seminal - from Dyus's instructions - in questing to create a new staff apotheosis is achieved.

If what has already been said holds true CoC will not die while he holds the Staff and Throne in Oblivion because his questing raises him to a form of Godhead (that's what apotheosis is) - and Sheogorrath has 'failed' before - but what's to say that the same being did, can or will return?

I'm inclined to trust Dyus - while remembering that his vast store of knowledge is from Jyg.

The question of a parallel with the Heart of Lorkhan is interesting ... but Jyg and Lorkha are totally different beings and their fate does not seem to hold parallels so much as points of comparison.

This enthronement of the CoC is apparently something that has happened before and it is clearly built into the nature of Sheogorrath's Realm - so it is not desecration but rather fulfillment or an essential part of a cycle.

Sheogorrath may be insane - but nothing says that the CoC has to be insane. Like the Nerevarine he is 'born' to his destiny as required by a Daedric Prince ... and there are others there who are not insane.

Has anyone considered that the staff is simply a receptacle of power and that the nature of that power may be determined by the nature of its creator and holder. It would not be the first time that a Prince of Oblivion has changed the nature of things - Daedroth are normally said to be agents of change so a non-daedroth mortal holding a throne in Oblivion could be expected to impose his nature on it.

@LN- I didn't say he'd be a threat, I said he is so damn predictable, but that he knows the other Princes too. He's a chess master, not a Magnificent Bastard.

Perhaps that Sheogorath is merely a title, and a different person takes the title and so forms into Jyggalag to die, and a new Sheogorath is named?

P.S. Am I right in saying that Jyggalag was the original daedric prince, not Sheogorath (as we know him)?

No.

Yes.

Lol, it was just a thought, I didn't say I thought that's how the story actually is...

What I don't understand is how there can possibly exist a Padomaic/Sithic/Daedric being whose sphere is order.

Wouldn't an order-god be aligned with Anu? So what gives there?

Order and stasis aren't the same thing. Maybe Jyggalag's order is what we think of as decreasing entropy. That's still a form of change.

And stagnant order too. :shrug:

Well if he truly has the powers of a Daedric Prince then the CoC is lost to us and can reform the isles and himself in anyway. I believe it is likely that the dev's will use this to create a new face for Sheogorath and any interactions with him in the future will show him in a certain way. Either that or people will just continue to worship his images as he was before the CoC took his throne.

Or better yet.. we get to see what happens when someone of sanity takes the thrown of madness.

I would feel cheated if none of this really happened. I think it's exciting that there is a new daedric prince and a new demi prince.

Jyg is the personification of what you get without Static Change being in the equation of Existence.

Also, try seeing Daedra as those elements of Existence that couldn't necessarily "give" themselves to Creation. Boethiah's sphere of Conspiracy ain't the same as Aka's sphere of Time or Kyne's sphere of Air.

edit: Ain't jack crap gonna change with the CoC as Sheog. It's gonna be as if Sheog never left, unless someone screws with the lore of TES in TES V.

Because Padomaic and Daedric aren't synonyms, they just tend to correlate. Heck, Lorkhan could be considered a Padomaic Aedra, so an Anuic Daedra isn't outside the realm of possibility.

Remember, as with Norse mythology, the gods CHOSE to be associated with whatever they are associated with, in terms of sphere and whatnot.

He wouldn't be sane. The Fall of Vitharn book makes it abundantly clear you'll eventually be blessed if you stay there long enough.

I agree that if the whole thing was faked, I'd feel cheated, but really who'se to say? Would you believe someone if they told you that they come from a magical place where two conflicting hlaves of Madness are embodied in the land itself which is ruled by a replacement mini-Dadra guy who also saved the world from certain destruction, probably more than once? No. So if someone says that, we'd know it, but any NPCs or someone who didn't play SI would say the same thing: The guy's a nut.