So, if the Shivering Isles is the realm of Sheogorath, who was originally Jyglyaag (Yeah, I have no idea how to spell it) does that mean that before his transformation, the SI (I'm just gonna abbreviate it, the subject-verb agreement is making my head hurt) was in fact, some sort of Orderly, crystalline place? Or if not, what was Jyglyaag's realm/sphere/whatever?

I would venture that it was some orderly crystalline place.

Well, if:
1, Jyggalag was before Sheogorath
2, Sheogorath was created when Anuil/Lorkhan went mad at "Creation"
3, Daedra Realms were created after "Creation"
...Then Jyggalag would not have had a realm of his own.

I could be totally wrong about this, though, especially the part of Sheogorath coming from Anuil/Lorkhan - I based that totally on my dim memories of conversations in this forum, and my memory is not known to be that great in the first place.
So this really needs some kind of confirmation from the Lore-Khans.

You're off on #3. There were realms before the creation of Mundus. The Anuad mentions the twelve worlds of creation and Vehk mentions them in general. Though considering the et'Ada are their plane(t), that there were et'Ada means there were planets.

Though I wouldn't worry too much about the Shivering Isles. It seems to have it story set up in a vacuum, making it irrelevant outside of that.

u are also off at number 2. the other princes cursed jyggalag with maddness b/c they feared the power he was gaining, and thus he becomes sheogorath. his head tells u this after u beat him.

I always thought of those twelve worlds to be the equivalent of the "Kalpas" of Nordic myth, where the world was made out of small pieces of the previous ones. Only in the Anuad's case, it is made from the shattered pieces of worlds that existed as the same time.
edit: What I mean is that things did exist before the creation of Mundis, but not in the same kalpa or "timeline."

Off course, I cannot argue with the et'ada thing. Especially since the rest of the et'Ada left suspiciously plane(t) formed holes in the sky. :foodndrink:



Not really (or rather, only). If we build upon the original story (where Sheograth is "symbolising" the madness of Anuil/Lorkhan), instead of simply retconning it, then Jyggalag could easily be interpreted as a manifestation of Anuil/Lorkhans peace-of-mind, his sanity (and his order).
Then the "cursing" of Jyggalag into Sheogorath would be explained by Anuil/Lorkhan "going insane".

Myths varies depending on who it is that tells them. I wouldn't say Jyggalag is any more credible than the rest.

Also, the entity credited with the removal of Lorkhan's heart now exists as a daedroth.

The problem with Jygallags explanation is that it was done in the form of plot exposition and in a way that doesn't leave room for doubt. He tells you personally what he has seen, after all he was there to witness it and it's about time that you get to hear why Jyg is Sheogorath.

While it's somewhat a tradition to take our sources with a grain of salt, we also rely heavily on the implicit trust between the reader and writer that everything that isn't countered somewhere else is true. Without that we wouldn't be pulling on vague references to see if they meant something, we'd dismiss them as gibberish right from the start.

Now I know about all those lose ends that fly around about the origins of Sheogorath,but they can't be connected to Jygallag.

It would have worked if Jyg didn't mention the other Daedra, that he encountered something he couldn't predict. It would have worked if Jyg said that he had always been part of Sheogorath and would perhaps see the Champion of the Isles again in a thousand years. It would have worked if he said et'Ada instead of Daedra.

Just about everything would have worked, just that one explanation doesn't because it involves the Daedra. This makes every connection to the Dawn Era purely coincidental because it doesn't reference the spirits involved there, but explicitly mentions those who aren't involved.

Now, bear in bind I'm simply playing devil's advocate, but...

IIRC, Jyg doesn't explicitly state it was the daedra. He says "other princes". He may be referring to et'ada as other princes. However, we're left to believe he means the other daedric princes. What else could he mean, right?

Like I said, just messin with ya'. But you have to understand, there is very little exposed during this exposition. Implications aside.

Nice try but it has plenty of context to support Daedric Princes.

:SE04JyggalagTopic:
Another Daedric Prince. Not a nice one. I don't think ANY of the other Princes like him, actually. I mean, Malacath is more popular at parties. - Sheogorath

:SE13JyggalagSpeech:
(...) It was not always so. Once, I ruled this Realm, a world of perfect Order. My dominion expanded across the seas of Oblivion with each passing era. The other Princes, fearful of my power, cursed me with Madness, doomed me to live as Sheogorath, a broken soul reigning in a broken land. (...) - Jyg

I'm not sure what you mean by implications aside, there were no implications. It was a rather straightforward explanation of what happened. Not that there was a very deep plot to expose, but that is another discussion.

edit:

It doesn't help that when the connection between Sheogorath and Mundus is brought up in the Interview with Dyus and Haskill that it gets dismissed as mortal obsession with the mortal world. While at the same time there is the suggestion that the the player character (and thus by extension the whole of Nirn) can't be accuracy predicted.

You can stick the Letter-of-uncertainty principle of the Ruling King from the Sermons in there only to have it waltzed over in the plot exposition. How is anybody supposed to take it seriously then?

Touche`. LOL. Like I said, playing devil's advocate.

Our understanding of a what a "Daedra" is, is so low, we can't come to any conclusions about what the SI offers. For all intents and purposes "Daedra" were pretty much redefined in SI (at least that's how I see it).

Why was Jygolag not known about before SI?
And how could they "doom" Jygolag, I mean, he was a Daedra Prince.

Jyggalag as a character did not exist before SI. He had not yet been developed.

However, if I'm not mistaken, the name "Jyggalag" is from Daggerfall or Arena. He was left undeveloped so that he could be used if needed in future TES games.
Or so I heard. Have no facts or sources.

He was mentioned in a Daedra Prince list in one of the books from Daggerfall IIRC yes. That's about it tho, nothing else was known about him, not even his sphere or personality.

IIRC, Jyggalag has been touched upon in a few in-game texts (On Oblivion), but never developed. Sheogorath has always been associated with Madness (or at least his sphere has been obscured to mortals and is associated with insanity...). The SI expansion I think was supposed to develop Jyg as a legitimate Daedric Prince (his sphere being Order, etc), but unique in the way that he and Sheo are one and the same (Jyg later stays as Jyg, and the player essentially becomes Sheo - which is a completely different discussion). The SI expansion was meant to clear up some ambiguity concerning that part of TES lore and at the same time give the player something to do.

i c wat u did thur

Well, If Sheo is Jyg and Jyg is Sheo, in essence, wouldnt you be working for two complete opposites both at once? and when you beat one you beat both? Why is this jyg/sheo conversation even needed if you all realize what the game says, you all have the same ideas, all worded differently.

You know, I loves SI. Some might argue that it broke lore, but we can't know that yet. And when it comes right down to it, I'd be 100% fine if the answer is that your character was driven insane by Sheogorath and spent the rest of his or her life only thinking they were really the Madgod.

And that would be horrendously boring to me. That just seems MUCH too simple. And the theories that some of the other users (myself included) have discovered are much deeper AND have a nugget of believability to them to those in the know.