First, let me be clear - you mod makers deserve a TON of credit for your efforts and creations. I have seen many games but none with as much sophisticating modding as Oblivion has done to it.

That said... let me lay the Smack Down...

The average SHMOE like myself who is new to the game and wants to add mods to the game is NOT going to understand your guys terms, how utilities work, all the little tidbits of information that is so critical and if overlooked can render the game useless!

To those who love to drop the line (in a sophisticated English snobby tone) 'Well sir, maybe you should read up on the documentation etc first so you can achieve our nirvana state of modding blah blah blah'
SAY WHAT? Not everyone wants to spend a MONTH learning all this crap just to install some mods for crying out loud! You guys (and girls) who created so much have my UTMOST respect but to expect others to reach your level of understanding is unrealistic!

When I walk into McDonalds and ask for burger, I don't want to be thrown in the kitchen with a BEEP here and BEEP there - noise everywhere! Hell, its stressful just watching those people while in line let alone being stuck back there but THATS kind of what some of you modders are asking us newbies!

Don't get me wrong, I TOTALLY appreciate the advice but DUMPING an EASY 100 pages of reading material related to mods, utilities, install instructions etc etc on someone and expecting them to learn it - You GOT to be Kidding Right??... (I can already see some smart shmucks replying 'oh, but I did it, no problem') - well KUDOS to you buddy, but for most normal people the wall of learning is simply OVERWHELMING!

AND I know I am not alone in this regard... I have read countless posts by others who are TOTALLY turned off by the sheer complexity of adding these mods. What a waste if so much man hours are put into these things and yet many people do not get to enjoy them...

That is the ENTIRE reason why I started a thread to slowly step by step add mods to my game and ALREADY I am running into problems. This mod has been updated, new patch here that conflicts with that patch there, if you install this then you can't do that, but wait one guys says yes you can, aaaAHHH HELL WITH IT is what I say!

I am a *UNT HAIR away from taking this game and throwing it in the trash then taking some of you mod makers and squishing your heads (thinking the scene in Casino) until one of your eyes pop out!

Okay, so thats a bit extreme but at least you get a sense of the level of frustration the current process causes...

SO - IF anyone finds ANYTHING agreeable with this 'charged' post, and IF You have the ability to simplify the current process - DO IT.
This game does NOT need more mods, more this or more that but what it DOES NEED is a process which is simple enough for most people follow....

(NOTE - incase you did not catch on, a lot of what I put in here is my attempt at DRY SARCASTIC HUMOR - please do not be offended)

Nope, not seeing any humor there.

Mods are not easy to make, and mod creators get nothing for making them other than occasional kudos and, frequently, complaints. Therefore there is no possibility that they will be easy for everyone to use. Deal, or go play on the Xbox.

Tough. You don't like learning how to do things, don't do them.

Either way, don't complain and then tell us how we should do stuff. I really don't like your attitude. If you can't be bothered to invest some time in using mods, then I see no reason why you should expect to enjoy them.

SickleYield is right, mods are not easy to make, and us modders put in a rediculous amount of time to do so. The motives may vary, and that doesn't really matter, because at the end of the day, you're still getting to enjoy the fruits of our labour for free. Although I am in favour of any simplification process (gotta fight that entropy, ), documentation and the reading of it is vital to understanding.

For you to learn information, you must either experience it first hand, or it must be communicated to you. Since the former is impractical in this case, the latter must be used. Of the latter, there are two primary standards: audio and visual. Obviously we can't speak to all our users, so recorded sound is the other option for audio. This is disgarded, along with video, as its information conveyed to size ratio is far inferior to the written word. Hence, readmes. These documents are crafted to give you vital information about specific subjects (in this case, mods and utilities), enabling you to quickly and effectively use them without resorting to hours of time consuming trial and error, which has the potential for causing large problems. Therefore, I see it as no great task to read this documentation - the time saved doing so is far greater than the time spent reading it.

As for your inability to process such information when so many people can, I have know answers. Perhaps practice reading, as the more you do so, the quicker you will get. As for the 'most normal people...simply overwhelm[ed]' comment - I think it is safe to apply the Homogenity Of Space to the human species, in that we are all broadly the same. Unless you are severally disabled, you should therefore have no great difficulty in processing this information. And that's coming from someone who does suffer a slight disability (if you see it that way, personally, I don't) themselves.

I disagree.

I wish I knew when I started playing mods for Oblivion.... Let's go by my Tesnexus join date: March 1st 2008. It took me till around October, December to finally install any type of serious overhaul, and that was only because I HAD TO for http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1032826&hl= I agreed to beta test. Now over a year later I've only recently in the past 2-3 months installed MMM and OOO.

Basically, if you don't understand, it's your own fault. To continue your food anology, you don't walk into a restaurant and order the whole damn cow as your appetizer. You start off with a salad, a small burger, come back to the restaurant again if you liked the food, make it a normal routine, and when you finally think you are ready it is THEN that you order the whole damn cow.

I won't get into my credentials or background but I do know what I am talking about.
My humor, well that indeed may be questionable - but then it is Friday.

Most importantly though, my objectivity is dead on correct IF the aim is to bring these great creations to the masses. If however these mods are intended for the few elite who can understand how to install them then indeed their creators have succeeded.

I spent months learning how to use mods, and many moe months just picking and installing mods. If you don't like how hard it is, don't do it.

It's not even that hard to learn how. Infact, the time it took to wright that rant, you could have been learning how to work and install mods. You could learn in a few days if you put your mind to it.

ditto. I first started using mods 3 years ago the old fashion way...reading and experimenting (lol, actually i remember not realizing i had to unzip the fle, that not putting the meshes/texture file in in, etc. etc.) Modding is an artform. When you want to learn how to paint or sculpt of play an instrument you either read up on it and experiment, or u pay someone for lessons....and since nobody here is getting paid for this stuff guess what that leaves you with.

If some doesn't have the effort/patience to read and experiment what make you think we'd have the effort/patience to explain something that is constantly changing and takes a long as time to fully understand and perfect.

Just remember, beggers can't be choosers

well. actually they're intended for the few who are willing to take the time to learn how to use them...

Based on your comments regarding how long it took to familiarize yourself with the process - by the time you get past the salad the game will most likely be outdated.

You don't even have to focus on learning. My point was get small mods and just visit the forum occasionally, eventually you'll just pick up whatever you need to know in order to install these supposedly: "VASTLY complex, elite only, SUPER MODS!"And Oblivion isn't outdated already? My point is you don't NEED FCOM on the first day. Try out some smaller, easier to install mods, and you'll enjoy them just as much as you'd enjoy FCOM. As for me? I'm not you... I'm kind of a purist and didn't want any major changes for the longest time, you want them RIGHT NOW! My decision to wait so long was 10% because I didn't want to deal with the complexity, 90% personal choice.

<_<

Okay so here is the facts of the matter.

Every modder started as a downloader, myself included. Every single one of us learned how to install mods before we even started learning how to mod. We were not born knowing how to install mods.....we sat down and read the instructions and learned. We all did it and used the exact same process that newcomers to mods are using today, so we see no reason why you cannot do it.

So getting mad at modders is totally fruitless and uncalled for. Everyone here is willing to help you learn, because we all had to learn it to. We don't 'complicate' the process in order to sit and watch people suffer, this is how modding works and if you want to use mods you will have to get off your complaining expletive and put some effort into it, and there is nothing we can do to change that. So your complaining and physical threats will earn you nothing other then this...... :slap:

well the point of mods is to prevent the game from being outdated...take a look at Morrowind. I still love to play that game since all the mods have matured to a point where the graphic are damn close to oblivion;s and the scripting possibilities are endless.

It's really quite simple.

Don't install a bunch of mods at once.

Pay attention when people tell you what's necessary.

Realize that not every mod you want is going to work with every other mod you want. If they conflict....make a decision and live with it.

Otherwise, fix the process yourself. Or realize that if fixing could be done someone already would have.

BOSS, Wrye Bash, OBMM....these utilities already solve most of the solveable problems. Plenty of people want to help with other problems.

BUT NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE SOLVED.

PERIOD.

LIVE WITH IT.

How about a better anology than McDonalds?

You walk into a food pantry (one of the places that gives out free bread, cans of beans, etc to people in need) and demand that the volunteers running the place cook you a five course meal.

Seems my assumption was correct. Definitely camaraderie going on here which is understandable but when taken to far you have a kind of elitism.

Basically what you guys are saying is 'we spent years learning this stuff to enjoy it, so you must as well' - and you know what? You are perfectly within your right to think this way.

I have a different outlook, I think there is something to be said about creating something which the masses can enjoy relatively easily.

Anyways - I will make a quiet exit now.

Fact - we cannot change the game engine, mods work as they work and nothing will change that, and we cannot reach through your computer and install the mods for you and given your attitude we very likely wouldn't even if we could. So you are asking.....no....demanding the impossible.

Please spare us the 'elitism' rubbish. The fact is that you are demanding the impossible. Sit down and take the time to learn how mods work, it really is not as complicated as it sounds. I was completely computer illiterate when I start to download mods and I learned, now I can install any mod. But only because I took the time to learn. Like I said above everyone was willing to help you, you needed only to ask politely.

Btw, Oblivion certainly does need more mods.

My initial post here is off the wall but within it there is some very good points and truths if you are willing to see it. Anyway, lets leave it at that. I don't think you guys are wrong for not wanting to simplify the process or demanding others take years to learn it - it is your work and if it brings you more joy to know only a few elite can see your work then mission accomplished is what I say.

I feel some pity for you, I suppose. Using mods in Oblivion is far easier now than it has ever been, with tools like Wrye Bash's BAIN, BOSS, BSA Redirection and even OBMM around to help you. Back when I was a lurker on these forums, and before I discovered here, I remember using mods was a lot more complex, having to manually update your ArchiveInvalidation.txt, and manually install mods, and generally do everything by hand yourself. And that was just trying to use the mods.

Nowadays, all you have to do is download the mod, read it's readme for info, install as instructed, perhaps helped using BAIN/OMODs, and then sort your load order using BOSS. Perhaps a few extra steps like rebuilding your Bashed Patch are needed, but what of it?

Apart from that, the only part I deem necessary is the installation of Wrye Bash, OBSE, BOSS, TES4LODGen and OBMM, which takes about 5 min. On top of that, now that I mod, I also have TES4View/Edit/Trans, the CS, TES4Gecko and various other utilities to install too.

---------------------------------------------

EDIT: Just saw your reply:

I apologise if I appear full of myself. I find that it's usually best to assume that whoever you are speaking to about a complex subject has no knowledge of that subject, so you start from the basics, explaining key points, and work your way up from there. I thought this approach would be best as you appeared in over your head and further jargon would just confuse you. But I do know exactly as much as I appear to, so I'm not trying to sound more knowledgeable.

As for your background in game design, I would have thought that any experience in such a lengthy, difficult process so akin to modding would give you greater patience and understanding. As what I assume to be some form of developer, I would have thought that you would know all about the need for consumer support and clear communication between developers and the community, as well as the stresses of this relationship. Obviously I was wrong, and your background appears to have taught you nothing of those subjects, my mistake.

And I have already stated that we're always looking for ways to simplify the process and spread the joys of mod using to others, so your parting comment is both null and an unecessarily vicious stab at us.

NO WE ARE NOT.

We are saying "We've made it as simple as we can make it." That's all there is to it. This is as good as it gets.

There are a lot of reasons for that. Some things can't be done for technical reasons. Some for legal reasons. Some just because of common courtesy.

Nobody can make a mega-installer that will install the perfect game for you. Nobody has the correct permissions, and nobody knows what a perfect game is for you.

Take FCOM as an example. People have wanted a mega-installer for ages, but Dev_akm doesn't have permission to modify Fran's or WarCry, so it can't be done.

Nobody's trying to punk you, or make you go through "frosh week" hazing. People want to help. But there are limits to what can be done.

And limits to people's patience. If your previous comments have had your "sense of humour" displayed, I don't doubt that people gave up on you quickly.

I wonder if I'll post this before the thread is closed?

Hi ray007

While I have no problem understanding your frustration, I think your post completely failed to achieve anything close to what you want, because you haven't provided a single solution or even something close to suggesting an idea for a solution.

You post as if you think we want our mods to be difficult, but that's nonsense. Most of us spend lots of time making our mods as easy to install and use as possible, but the fact is that there is no easy solution.

...or people get annoyed when you attack them for something that's not correct.

This is completely wrong. Basically we say that this is darned difficult if you're going to use many mods. If you think it can be done easily, then please tell how, because I don't know.

That's good. Now please tell us how.

It is not a case of not wanting to simplify it, we cannot simplify it and it does not take years to learn it. You are being rediculous and not listening and I am beginning to think 'troll'.

There's a good idea. Bearing in mind that mega-installers are impossible (not difficult, impossible) give us a suggestion on a way to make things easier for new users.

Oh, for crying out loud. A small group of people dedicated to an obscure, difficult hobby are not "elites." They are hobbyists. Which puts us in the same basket as the http://www.aka.kite.org/, not MENSA.

I, too, have "dealt directly" with gaming companies. Specifically, I directly downloaded two DLCs from Bethesda Softworks. I'm sure many of us here can say the same.

Just in case my reply got lost in the deluge:

I apologise if I appear full of myself. I find that it's usually best to assume that whoever you are speaking to about a complex subject has no knowledge of that subject, so you start from the basics, explaining key points, and work your way up from there. I thought this approach would be best as you appeared in over your head and further jargon would just confuse you. But I do know exactly as much as I appear to, so I'm not trying to sound more knowledgeable.

As for your background in game design, I would have thought that any experience in such a lengthy, difficult process so akin to modding would give you greater patience and understanding. As what I assume to be some form of developer, I would have thought that you would know all about the need for consumer support and clear communication between developers and the community, as well as the stresses of this relationship. Obviously I was wrong, and your background appears to have taught you nothing of those subjects, my mistake.

And I have already stated that we're always looking for ways to simplify the process and spread the joys of mod using to others, so your parting comment is both null and an unecessarily vicious stab at us.

So I have been asked, what do I think would enable this process to be made easier?

Why not group a number of mods into single larger mods then offering easy one click installs for people?

The only one so far that has come close to this in my view is OOO. Nice package, simple one click install and presto. Why not expand on what he has done but keep it as simple as he has?