Is the sniper rifle bugged? : Fallout: New Vegas

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:13 am

I also didn't use a hollow point in my experiments as obviously it be near useless against a heavily armored ranger, so I don't know where he's getting that conclusion.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:30 pm

What you don't realize is that DT is applied before an ammo's damage multiplier.
So in the case of JSP ammo its 42DMG -DT x1.5. The pip boy only displays the damage vs an unarmored target.

JSP has DT x1.5? Doesn't say that in the description. Did someone forget to add it in?

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:17 pm

JSP has DT x1.5? Doesn't say that in the description. Did someone forget to add it in?

No, you misread my post, the damage multiplier is factored in AFTER the targets DT adjusts the base damage.
Lets assume your using This Machine 55dmg, and facing a viper with 10DT
(55dmg, -10DT)x1.5=67.5dmg
Its not 55x1.5-10DT

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:25 am

What is the condition of the Sniper Rifle?

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:00 pm

What is the condition of the Sniper Rifle?

100%
Please don't take me for some stupid noob. I worked hard on my living anatomy tests.
I would only fire the weapon once before reloading to ensure maximum condition.[that and performing a test with a pissed off ranger wielding an anti-material rifle is really hard]

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:32 am

OK, I fixed it!
I noticed the All-American with AP ammo easily kills ranger vets, so I did some checking on some different weapons.
The Light Machine Gun only has 5 less DAM than the All-American... and with AP rounds can still penetrate ranger vet armor.
With 100% CND, 100 Guns, and .556 AP I can do 20 DAM, 242 DPS, and -15 DT.

The Light Machine Gun (when used close to mid range) eats veteran rangers for breakfast.

On a side note: with regular .556 ammo the DPS is high enough to still kill the ranger vets with 90-100 rounds(all of about 10 seconds) - not as efficient as AP ammo, but it will work in a pinch.

So at this point I have to ask myself - why even bother with the sniper rifle?
I can snipe with the All-American, and for 1 shot kills I could just use the AMR.

I know SOMEONE will say "but its not silenced"... I say shoot them from far enough away it doesn't matter... or shoot and move - like a real sniper would.

And that's my new opinion... .556 is superior to .308 - at least in Fallout NV.

Also just in... I tested the LMG w/AP against BOS Paladins and Deathclaws... this gun will tear through anything you point it at.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:48 pm

OK, I fixed it!

Bob if you would go back and read my Living Anatomy post you'd see it has nothing to do with the sniper-rifle the rangers themselves have protection beyond DT most likely DR. Even an unarmored ranger takes significantly less damage from a weapon then it should. The DR reduces the damage below the rangers DT, making the damage practically nothing. A fast firing weapon using AP rounds, simply doesn't suffer from the ranger protection as much.

You bother with .308 ammo because the problem only exists with rangers.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:40 am

Bob if you would go back and read my Living Anatomy post you'd see it has nothing to do with the sniper-rifle the rangers themselves have protection beyond DT most likely DR. Even an unarmored ranger takes significantly less damage from a weapon then it should. The DR reduces the damage below the rangers DT, making the damage practically nothing. A fast firing weapon using AP rounds, simply doesn't suffer from the ranger protection as much.

You bother with .308 ammo because the problem only exists with rangers.

I hear you... .308 is still useful for other enemies.
But at the same time the sniper rifle has a pretty low DPS, and I like to carry weapons that are useful against the widest variety of foes possible.
I think with the All-American & the Light Machine Gun, and a good supply of .556/.556 AP; I could effectively engage every enemy in the game, from any range.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:54 am

You bother with .308 ammo because the problem only exists with rangers.

Um, why? The .44 round is more powerful than the .308 in New Vegas (scoped trail carbine > sniper). It's not even close with the Cowboy perk.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:42 am

Um, why? The .44 round is more powerful than the .308 in New Vegas (scoped trail carbine > sniper). It's not even close with the Cowboy perk.

Were you using the .44 MAG SWC? Very good DAM, -6 DT also helps.

My Idea for a good .308 weapon:
-Take the marksman carbine - chamber it for .308 & keep the rate of fire the same.
-DAM should be a couple of point lower than the Sniper Rifle to account for the short barrel.
-It already has an Acog
-make a silencer mod available for it.

Say 35 DAM, 6 shots per second equals 210 DPS.
And it has a silencer and a scope.
And your choice of .308 JSP or .308 AP.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:29 pm

Um, why? The .44 round is more powerful than the .308 in New Vegas (scoped trail carbine > sniper). It's not even close with the Cowboy perk.

Well first off the damage difference is practically nothing, and secondly. .308 JSP ammo increases the damage by 1.5. So the sniper rifle's damage is 63, while This Machine would deal 82dmg. Without increasing DT. Or taking the cowboy perk.. There are also no armor piercing .44 rounds, the closest you come is SWC. If you do have the cowboy perk then your probably going to be using the Brushgun for your stand-up fights.

Anyway the point here is not to debate ammo, its to explain why ranger veterans appeared to take so little damage from an attack. I believe my living anatomy test has proven they must have DR ontop of DT.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:24 am

Well first off the damage difference is practically nothing, and secondly. .308 JSP ammo increases the damage by 1.5. So the sniper rifle's damage is 63, while This Machine would deal 82dmg. Without increasing DT. Or taking the cowboy perk.. There are also no armor piercing .44 rounds, the closest you come is SWC. If you do have the cowboy perk then your probably going to be using the Brushgun for your stand-up fights.

.44 MAG SWC
DAM X 1.20
Target DT - 6.00

+ cowboy's 25% DAM increase.

Trail Carbine + Cowboy + .44 SWC = 68 DAM, -6 DT
Sniper Rile: AP = 40 DAM, -15 DT; JSP = 64 DAM, and no -DT

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:37 am

Well first off the damage difference is practically nothing, and secondly. .308 JSP ammo increases the damage by 1.5. So the sniper rifle's damage is 63, while This Machine would deal 82dmg. Without increasing DT. Or taking the cowboy perk.. There are also no armor piercing .44 rounds, the closest you come is SWC. If you do have the cowboy perk then your probably going to be using the Brushgun for your stand-up fights.

Trail Carbine + Cowboy > Sniper rifle + JSP

The 1.5 multiplier from JSP is misleading, because apparently it gets factored in AFTER the base damage is modified by DT. So in every respect, the trailcarbine deals more damage shot-per-shot than the sniper rifle, even if we don't consider DPS.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:18 pm

.44 MAG SWC
DAM X 1.20
Target DT - 6.00

+ cowboy's 25% DAM increase.

Which is still less then This Machine with JSP rounds vs soft targets or AP rounds vs heavy armored targets. And as I said if you have the cowboy perk then the Brushgun dominates the trail carbine.

And as I said before debating ammo isn't the point, the point is you experienced the sniper rifle dealing far less damage then it should vs the ranger veterans.
I was then able to discover the issue wasn't the gun but the target. The Trail Carbine using regular .44 rounds would deal no more damage then the sniper rifle.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:54 pm

a sniper is meant for distant kill ing not close range there also meant for sneak attacks

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:38 am

Which is still less then This Machine with JSP rounds vs soft targets or AP rounds vs heavy armored targets. And as I said if you have the cowboy perk then the Brushgun dominates the trail carbine.

And as I said before debating ammo isn't the point, the point is you experienced the sniper rifle dealing far less damage then it should vs the ranger veterans.
I was then able to discover the issue wasn't the gun but the target. The Trail Carbine using regular .44 rounds would deal no more damage then the sniper rifle.

Just ran the calculation, Brush Gun + Cowboy + SWC should do 112 DAM & -6 DT
Which I think should out DAM and out DPS this machine right?

On topic with the ranger vets: Trail Carbine w/.44 SWC killed the ranger vets in 8-9 rounds to the chest -no sneaky- compared to the 20 or more they soaked from the .308/sniper rifle.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:12 pm

Sniper Rifles were adjusted in the new Patch, so their destructive power was reduced.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:27 pm

Well first off the damage difference is practically nothing, and secondly. .308 JSP ammo increases the damage by 1.5. So the sniper rifle's damage is 63, while This Machine would deal 82dmg. Without increasing DT. Or taking the cowboy perk.. There are also no armor piercing .44 rounds, the closest you come is SWC. If you do have the cowboy perk then your probably going to be using the Brushgun for your stand-up fights.

Anyway the point here is not to debate ammo, its to explain why ranger veterans appeared to take so little damage from an attack. I believe my living anatomy test has proven they must have DR ontop of DT.

Yep thanks for the living anatomy tests both you and sniper bob, I've known ( well suspected ) this for a while.

The new ammo system seems to be the reverse of the old FO's where HP's where usefull against everyone, and AP were nerfed.
Now with AP and DT as it is taking normal rounds on a lower tier gun will do the same or less than a AP round on even a slightly armoured foe I've found in some cases.
Against ramped up foes with odd perks of their own such a rangers AP rounds are the only serious way to damage them.
Which is fine for a automatic but high powered rifles at range should beat their DT without the use of AP and deal at least the same amount of damage imo.

It's not a issue of difficulty as even a mid level unarmed build can take down three of the ranger elites ( trench coat armour ).
It's just odd that the system says AP does less damage, when in fact in most cases if a creature has any DT it does more than a normal round that would beat the DT anyway.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:34 am

The Trail Carbine using regular .44 rounds would deal no more damage then the sniper rifle.

Try it - it does. If the 1.5X JSP multiplier is applied after the DAM is modified by DT, then the trailcarbine with Cowboy perk mathematically should do more damage than the sniper rifle.

Sniper Rifle max DAM (with perks) - 45.36
Trailcarbine max DAM (with perks) - 59.85

Ammo: SWC (1.2x) and JSP (1.5x) applied after DAM modified by DT

Trail carbine vs. Sniper rifle
(59.85-DT)*1.2 vs. (45.36-DT)*1.5
or simplified
59.85*1.2 - 1.2*DT vs. 45.36*1.5 - DT*1.5

If we were to make the comparison using normal ammo (as you suggested), the results would only be slightly less lopsided in favor of the trail carbine.

If I had NV on PC, I would do it myself.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:59 pm

Just ran the calculation, Brush Gun + Cowboy + SWC should do 112 DAM & -6 DT
Which I think should out DAM and out DPS this machine right?

Did I not say if you take the cowboy perk your going to use the Brushgun and not the trail carbine? So comparing the trail carbine with cowboy to the sniper rifle was silly.

On topic with the ranger vets: Trail Carbine w/.44 SWC killed the ranger vets in 8-9 rounds to the chest -no sneaky- compared to the 20 or more they soaked from the .308/sniper rifle.

So you compared SWC to regular rounds? try the trail carbine again with normal .44. It should have the same weakness as the sniper rifle. Because of the DT penetration coupled with the slight damage increase. It gets by the rangers special defense. Against non-rangers you would probably fine JSP ammo more effective on soft targets, an AP ammo on armored targets.

As I already proved the rangers must have DR in addition to any DT.

Removed Flamebait

Explain why the rangers are taking so little damage then, when the weapons work fine against other targets.
Explain how 45dmg-24DT=9.

I'm reposting the results of my living anatomy test.

Spoiler

First test was against against ED-E who has a DT of 8. and as a companion I could easily view his HP
*with companion nerve DT of 12*
I did this before taking the perk as Living Anatomy increases the pipboy display of damage but doesn't actually robots.

Sniper Rifle 42dmg:
Regular .308:31DMG. (42-12DT=30)
AP Round 41DMG. (42 x0.95=40)
JSP Round 46DMG (42-12DTx1.5=45)
All of these mathematically were off by only a single point of damage. However a stray decimial point normally hidden from us caused by lord of death can easily account for that.

After getting living anatomy the real testing began first on some nearby fiends.
Base DMG 45
Fiend=DT 5. 70HP
Regular .308:40DMG. (45-5DT=40)
AP Round 42DMG. (45x0.95=42.75)
JSP Round 60DMG (45-5DTx1.5=60)

But how does it fair against those guys in black armor? My test subject had 270HP and a DT of 24.
Regular .308:9 DMG. (45-24DT=21)
AP Round 21DMG. (45-9DTx0.95=34)
JSP Round 9DMG (45-24DTx1.5=31.5)
It didn't appear to matter if my sniper rifle was silenced, unmodded or the gobi.

I then tried other weapons, like the dinner bell loaded with slug rounds. Its listed damage was 80. And as a slug DT would be applied once.
Dinner Bell 80dmg base[*remember slugs are a single projectile*)
Slug: 31dmg (80-24=56) The damage is off by 24.
Mysterious Magnum: 45dmg base
.44: 9dmg

From here we can tell the problem isn't the sniper rifle, I tried a couple other weapons and the damage was still off.

So then I moved on to a nearby unarmored ranger.
She had 195HP 0DT
Sniper rifle dealt 35dmg.
Mysterious Magnum: 35dmg
Dinnerbell: 56dmg

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:13 am

Alright I leveled up the old save and took Living Anatomy and did some intensive testing here are the testing results.

First test was against against ED-E who has a DT of 8. and as a companion I could easily view his HP
*with companion nerve DT of 12*
I did this before taking the perk as Living Anatomy increases the pipboy display of damage but doesn't actually robots.

Sniper Rifle 42dmg:
Regular .308:31DMG. (42-12DT=30)
AP Round 41DMG. (42 x0.95=40)
JSP Round 46DMG (42-12DTx1.5=45)
All of these mathematically were off by only a single point of damage. However a stray decimial point normally hidden from us caused by lord of death can easily account for that.

After getting living anatomy the real testing began first on some nearby fiends.
Base DMG 45
Fiend=DT 5. 70HP
Regular .308:40DMG. (45-5DT=40)
AP Round 42DMG. (45x0.95=42.75)
JSP Round 60DMG (45-5DTx1.5=60)

But how does it fair against those guys in black armor? My test subject had 270HP and a DT of 24.
Regular .308:9 DMG. (45-24DT=21)
AP Round 21DMG. (45-9DTx0.95=34)
JSP Round 9DMG (45-24DTx1.5=31.5)
It didn't appear to matter if my sniper rifle was silenced, unmodded or the gobi.

I then tried other weapons, like the dinner bell loaded with slug rounds. Its listed damage was 80. And as a slug DT would be applied once.
Dinner Bell 80dmg base[*remember slugs are a single projectile*)
Slug: 31dmg (80-24=56) The damage is off by 24.
Mysterious Magnum: 45dmg base
.44: 9dmg

From here we can tell the problem isn't the sniper rifle, I tried a couple other weapons and the damage was still off.

So then I moved on to a nearby unarmored ranger.
She had 195HP 0DT
Sniper rifle dealt 35dmg.
Mysterious Magnum: 35dmg
Dinnerbell: 56dmg

My conclusion is that rangers have a built in damage resistance, one that is probably applied before DT.

My response to Granite and the thefalloutfanboy

Spoiler

Mathematically speaking a 50% increase in in dmg should counter the armor almost as well.
45-24DTx1.5=31.5
45-(24DT-15AP)x0.95=34.2
IE 45-9DTx0.95
Your completely missing his point to, he's saying the damage vs a ranger is FAR lower then it should be and he's RIGHT, I just proved that using Living Anatomy.

And the point of all this is what?....to make a point? You could just turn down the difficulty if its this much of a problem because all those equations seem like a waste :shrug:

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:04 pm

And the point of all this is what?....to make a point? You could just turn down the difficulty if its this much of a problem because all those equations seem like a waste :shrug:

You don't think that knowing why a weapon is completely ineffective when logically it should work fine is important information? The reason why your weapon's damage is reduced to 20% even when its damage should be above the targets DT. The fact that a unarmored ranger will shrug off 30% of all damage is something you might like to know. 80dmg -0DT does not equal 56.

Sniperbob questioned, why the sniper rifle appeared to do so little damage against ranger veterans. Why would a 40+dmg weapon deal only 20%dmg against a target with 24DT using normal or JSP ammo. That's not important to know?
I tried to find out why. To see exactly how much it dealt per shot I used living anatomy and found it dealt only 9dmg, Which made absolutely no sense. I had already tested it on my companions and the damage made sense. I tried some other weapons, same effect. I tried the weapons on some fiends, everything worked mathematically as I'd expect, so the conclusion is The rangers had a defense beyond DT. Knowledge is power, and knowing that rangers have 30% o 50%DR on top of there armor's DT[if any] is certainly important information in deciding how you handle them.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:00 am

Back on topic...I tried the sniper rifle with .308 JSP vs BOS paladins...bypassed DT just fine. (open combat to the chest)
The ranger vets must be the ONLY enemy with special DT/DR.
I figured the BOS paladins would be good test subjects because surely, if ANYONE was going to have a super high DT - it would be the guys walking around in t51b's.

Side topic -
If Rangers have DR in addition to DT - is there any apparel, perks, or chems that would give ME DR?

So semi-summary: To kill Ranger Vets - use a high DPS weapon capable of penetrating as much DT as possible.
If you can overcome their DT, all that is left to do is pour on the lead to overcome their DR.
- Quantity has a Quality all its own.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:10 pm

Back on topic...I tried the sniper rifle with .308 JSP vs BOS paladins...bypassed DT just fine. (open combat to the chest)
The ranger vets must be the ONLY enemy with special DT/DR.
I figured the BOS paladins would be good test subjects because surely, if ANYONE was going to have a super high DT - it would be the guys walking around in t51b's.

Side topic -
If Rangers have DR in addition to DT - is there any apparel, perks, or chems that would give ME DR?

Med-X would give DR of 25%, assuming it works for us the same way it does for the rangers it will reduce the damage before DT is applied, the rebreather also applies 3DR.

» Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:43 pm

wow. As many times as I have seen Med-X, not once did I look at it and see it did damage reduction. I always assumed it granted an extra 25 DT.
Does medicine skill affect Med-x effectiveness?

My new idea for a character:
STR 10, END 10.
Toughness X2
Sub Dermal Armor Implant
Phoenix Implant
Uses Med-x
Wears power Armor
Life Giver Perk

LMG
This Machine
Oh Baby!

Should be pretty effective...