I get that the Lone Wanderer is useful but so was Frank Horrigan and do you honestly think he'd have been kept around in a post-Project mainland? I can also easily see Eden's cold robotic logic sacrificing his own people to allow for the completion of his goals but once that goal has been accomplished there's no reason to have the Lone Wanderer around. He is despised by everyone in the Enclave, nobody certainly treats him with anything other than contempt in Raven Rock after the President gives him the all clear; and then post-Project where he has killed even more people, all those garrisoning the Purifier?

I would hazard a guess that Eden would just write them all off to the larger Enclave public as Autumn traitors, my point is that the people in the Enclave would never accept him - we see that in-game Eden's blessing makes them only tolerant. At best he would likely be shunned by everyone in the Enclave - who the hell would want to be near someone who had been shooting them up?

Eh, I don't think Eden would care if the Enclave citizens met TLW with hugs rainbows and kittens. If TLW was worth 50-100 troops alone, then his use is more important than his publicity. I mean even Eden seemed in awe at TLW's capabilities.

On that note, I never got tired of walking up to every soldier I met 'If you're supposed to be meeting the President then go do it, get away from me.' Priceless the way the PA troops end the line :laugh:

Plus, we can only run on hypothetics, if we put TLW at Horrigan status, he'd be of two camps, the camp that adores him as the fists of the Enclave, and the other who sees him as a mutant attack dog of the President. I know which camp you believe him to be so I neednt ask. :laugh:

Still, my idea is that he risks civil unrest by such un-necessary trust. What the Enclave would need after the Autumn Heresy - assuming that he's dead - is a strong replacement, whilst I can - unfortunately - see a dramatic increase of faith in Eden, a strong leader is needed to replace Autumn; that outsider who killed his way out of Raven Rock isn't it, everyone will know everyone in such a small and communal community and it will be impossible for any cover story Eden gives to gel.



I know, it's so damn strange to hear the same guy in Skyrim voicing jovial shopkeepers and high-strung Bretons O.o


Nope you needed :disguise:

To be fair, the troops at RR got what they deserved as they were going against President Eden by listening to a Colonel. Those breaking chain of command must be punished. :nono:


This just makes me want Skyrim more now. :cryvaultboy:

Unfortunately that can never really be clarified, thiers just as much credence - if not more, given that Eden can watch and hear everything in Raven Rock - that the troops were completely in the dark. Eden says that most people never question his lack of a physical appearance because all they need is a strong voice of authority. I think it's more than likely that they were acting under the belief that they were stopping a threat.

The vistitor from Vault 101 apparently has hostile intentions, the President is taken to saftey - notice that Eden never tries to publically countermand Autumn - and Colonel Autumn has assumed temporary control as is his likely duty.



"Welcome to the Riverwood Trader; best prices in Skyrim and you'll believe it, in a body-bag if necessary."

American should never fight American, especially soldiers who are just following orders. I would, being a humble Private, follow my military superiors any day than take orders from a politician I didn't vote for and who I have never seen.
No matter how justified I will never forgive Eden for mass murdering Enclave soldiers to protect a met-five-minutes-ago terrorist who has more dead Enclave soldiers in his conscience than anyone else, sans the Chosen One maybe.

God Bless America.

Likewise I cannot forgive Autumn for his threats to blow up the President of the United States and take Raven Rock along with it (along, more than likely with any Eden supporters or people who couldn't get out in time before the self-destruction of the base).

Personally I think that's a good trade-off.

A little confused as to what this is about but I think the enclave are the best choice for the cw the bos don't seem organised they'll stem the flow of muties but what about trarde and farming have they even considered that ?

Justifications and motifs aside, Eden actually went through it and did what he was planning. Whatever Autumn was planning never made past blueprint phase - we will never know whether he would actually have murdered Eden for whatever reason.
But, ask those dead Enclave soldiers in Raven Rock who made the right call that day...

Got to say I'm on Pistol's side here if for different reasons. There's more than enough evidence to give creedance to the idea that the trooopers fighting the Security Bots were completely clueless. 101 turns out to be a threat, President is presumed to be taken to a safe area and Autumn assumes command - Eden never makes any attempt to correct the mistake does he?

Eden gunned down his own people for an outsider - even if no other course of action was available due to Autumn planning his coup - and that can never be excused or properly justified.

Though I do have to say Pistol, the troopers dedication to the cause and un-questioning loyalty is what allows them negate having never seen Eden; Richardson was a political but I'd have no problem following his orders.

EDIT: Eden is a souless machine, humans may be pathetic creatures of meat and bone but nothing is so absolute that it can be governed purely by logic.

Regardless I have my plans for Eden and Autumn, my own way of resolving this mess of bad-writing that will ultimately leave both parties satisfied. http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1171818-the-life-and-death-of-alan-sutler/.

I won't pretend that Eden made a good call. Indeed, his actions on that day highly a major fault in his character (but one that doesn't stop me from supporting his ideals and what he is trying to accomplish).

Eden (being an AI) more than likely calculated that the LW's combat experience and abilities made him worth a hundred or so Enclave soldiers (which in-game is an unfortunate reality, given how the LW virtually guns down everyone in AAFB). Thus Eden placed the necessity to "get the LW on their side" above the lives of his own men, its a cold and calculating call, and I don't agree with it, but I can't argue that it couldn't have achieved desired results. After all, if the LW is on the Enclave's side, that's the only way they are able to pull out a victory in some form or another.

Although I will say this, we really don't know what those soldiers would say. Yes I'm sure they'd have some choice words about Eden if they found out he made that call (but keep in mind they likely have no idea he was behind the Sentry bots, since how could they?) but frankly some may be just as angry at Autumn for causing the rift with the President in the first place. Had Autumn not countermanded the order to "leave the LW alone" then no-one would have had to get killed. There would have been no confusion, and no futile attempt to kill an apparent demi-god.



I do agree here.

I also agree that the Enclave soldiers more than likely didn't know what was going on. Unfortunate victims I suppose. After all, I've said before that I can't imagine they'd turn on the President like that so readily.

However Autumn's words of "you are hearby ordered to ignore the President's previous directive", do make things a bit complicated. How he words it seems to indicate an obvious direct break in the chain of command, but perhaps that wasn't immediately apparent to the soldiers.



While that's true, its also equally likely that the LW took advantage of Autumn's carelessness and blew up Raven Rock with Autumn's own self-destruct code. Certainly leaving the destruction sequence for your capitol in an average locked footlocker in your unguarded room was a poor call on Autumn's part?

Yes, Autumn never went through with his plan to kill the President (on his own terms) and blow up Raven Rock but the fact that he seemed to be seriously considering it is enough for me.



I do hope that is the case. I'd like to read a fiction which gives both Autumn and Eden justice in their own right.

In my mind, their character's deserve it considering they are the last real tangible leaders of the Enclave (that we know of).

Well there's no way in hell that I'm letting my character conform to the cavalcade of nonsense and confusion leveled at us from Fallout 3, as far as I am concerned I have a much better idea .

Glad to hear that. :foodndrink:

For someone who cites Fallout 2, you hardly paid attention to the game. FEV Curling-13 kills any human that comes in contant with it with 100% lethality. The only way to prevent death is to inoculate against its effect (similiar to how one is inoculated against viral and bacterial diseases nowadays). Otherwise, why did "pure" humans on the oil rig die after exposure to the modified virus?

Bottom line: Don't use a biased Enclave scientists words as any kind of proof. The "pure human" term is an artificial construct made up by the Enclave to justify total genocide. Same as with the Third Reich and their racial theories, though taken to an extreme.

And by the way, given that Fallout's biochemical technology is about six decades ahead of our own (if not more), real-time mutation isn't out of the question.



See above.

Which is exactly what I said. Curling never even pretends that the virus seeks out "pure-humans", nor does Richardson; hell he says as much that anyone can be successfully innoculated - as we see in-game.

So I don't understand your point on Enclave propaganda giving how it is never once said by anyone in Fallout 2 that pure-humans are safe - that's the whole reason that the Enclave created a vaccine in the first-place; seems like a pretty obvious and immediate conclusion, not this un-founded evil Enclave, nazi dictatorship, propaganda story. If it requires such a [censored] justification in the first place then why would it be done?

EDIT: Thanks for taking the time to read my post, I won't "see above" because I was in complete agreement that the Curling-13 in no-way "tracks" pure-humans, though for more legitimate and logical reasons than just "the Enclave is evil and therefore lies to it's own people." Vice President Bird is regarded as a "National Hero" because he was one of the first volunteers for the vaccine human trials. There is no grand lie, as much as that might disappoint you.

Where is the evidence to say that "pure-human" is an artificial construct? The Master didn't think so when humans who had lived in Vaults and been exposed to less radiation reacted differently to the FEV that wastelanders. Pretty clear indication of some difference if you ask me. All that "Prime Normal", "Tell us where your Vault is", the whole plot of Fallout 1 really gives creedance to actual differences between wastelanders and "pure-humans" - a term never used by the Enclave anyway if I recall, it was humans and "near-humans". "Pure-humans" was probably just coined so people could argue a largely un-founded Nazi similarity - despite the obvious differences in motivation and basic ideology.

Not that the Project is based on some seething racial hatred anyway, it's an incorrect and stupid act of self-preservation on the Enclave's part. The whole racial arguement is used by people who either don't look into things or so blinded by bias that every-other reason is just lies and Enclave propaganda.

I wouldnt say it's racial at all. It's more an act of.....correction? They see the average Wastelander as being sick, and they have proven it's true because Enclave subjects, due to living in their little sterilized bubble, are Pre-War genetic people, as such, they are truly pure humans. Wastelanders are all either descended from Vault Dwellers who exited their Vaults, people who managed in Fallout Shelters, or were far enough to be lucky, or unlucky pending your attitude, to survive the Bomb. As such, due to the FEV and radiation in the global atmosphere, it's inextricably bound up for all those not in a 24/7 purified station to become genetically altered over generations, such is what living in background radiation can and will do.

However, despite the Enclaves resources, if they are on par with a Vault Dweller, it's likely they'd die in the Wastes. Look at Doc Mitchell, his wife died from her poor immune system, courtesy of life in an air purifier. In many ways, you could argue it's Wastelanders who are 'genetically superior' to the Enclave citizens.

An irony not lost on Richardson if I recall.

Richardson makes it clear that what the Project is is an irrational over-reaction to the perceived mainland threat, they believe that should the Enclave try and expand on the mainland that the mutants would destroy them; he says that "muties and men could get along for a time but the numeric pressure of your kind would tell". It's not "we're above mutants" but "the mutants would overwhelm us."

Yes, there is racial motivation but not in the sense that "hur dur, we're the master race." What they actual think is that the human race is doomed if they don't act. Yeah it's massively wrong but from their perspective it's right; they think that they are saving their species itself not conquering new lands. Still evil of course but actual intent counts for something.

With as little a presence as the Enclave has, it's fallacy to believe they'd do mainland trading. Yes there was the Salvatores, but in general, they did little more than terrorize communities. Ultimately, if the Enclave REALLY wanted, they could have turned old coastal ships and et cetera and turned them into trading posts. Ultimately the Enclave is just....nonsense. Their end goal is understandable, but it's point B between A and C that's hard to follow, as it amounts to little more than mass hysteria.

I don't understand why you hate them so much to remove them. The Brotherhood is useful to the Enclave in a similar way that satan is useful to god. Bros hoard their tech and share it with no one, the Enclave can point and declare to the wasteland public how the Brotherhood are greedy parasites who don't care for anyone's hardship and how the Enclave is / are here to solve everyone's problems by 'fighting against' thier injustice ( just enough to be heroes ).

Unless you're into it enough to want a resolution to this. Unfortunately, Fallout: New Vegas happened and replaced the metal-clad Enclave with funny men wearing Halloween costumes shouting Avé led by a bald idiot who doesn't bother to check if his orders were obeyed, and in his own back yard no less.

:shrug: Nobody said they were perfect. Mass hysteria and paranoia indeed, it's just one of those things. Any mainlander involvement wouldn't involve trading, it would involve them trying to govern and lead the mainland mess; they're hardly likely the recognise the NCR are they?

The human/near-human dichotomy is even worse than the pure human/human version, so you're actually strengthening my argument.

As for the rest: the Master didn't create any abstract human/near-human division for purely propaganda purposes. The "prime normal" moniker was reserved for normal humans who provided prime stock for creating mutants, namely had a higher likelihood of succesfully undergoing mutation. The key here was radiation count. Not radiation-induced damage to DNA (as the FEV comes pre-loaded with its own), but radiation count. Consult the timeline.

Now, the Enclave. I don't know why you claim that the Enclave isn't inherently evil. They are a band of raiders, granted, with technology, weapons and armor, but raiders nonetheless. Maybe, in the early years, they were composed of actual government members and elected representatives, but by 2242, they are a bunch of usurpers claiming to be the United States government.

However, they are not. They have absolutely no legitimacy, due to the lack of constitutional mandate given to them by US citizens. And before you ask, no, Enclave members aren't the only United States citizens. The US Constitution clearly states that citizenship is obtained at birth or through naturalization. A majority of wastelanders in post-nuclear North America are descended from US citizens, making them citizens as well. Even IF the Enclave was (due to a continuity of operations act or something similiar) the legal US government, then the extrajudicial killings commited on US citizens on the mainland, trafficking in slaves and drugs, and finally, conspiring to commit total genocide against mankind, including a large number of US citizens, make it criminal and illegal.

And Enclave's plan for total genocide is entirely based on its racial doctrine:





Now tell me how exactly is Enclave's logic any different from the racial doctrines of the Third Reich? Both base on the assumption that a certain group (Aryans/Enclave members) is superior and requires the removal (or, better, extermination) of lesser people for their success.

If anything, you're blinded by your love for the Enclave that you miss glaringly obvious facts about their operations.

The Enclave's legitimacy is largely removed from this debate, continuity of operations have given the real U.S. Government the power to suspend the Constitution and appoint military officials to elected positions in the 80's; when it comes to the survival of government they'll bend-over-backwards to save themselves.



Hardly, I like the Enclave for a variety of reasons both objective and sympathetic. If we're using Richardson quotes:

"Sure muties and men could get along for a while, but before you know it, the numeric pressure of your kind would tell."

Immediate proof that the Enclave was never above working/governing over the mainland populace just because they were superior; it's the numbers of the mainland that frighten them not the fact that the mainlanders are different. Yeah of course they're is some anti-mainlander sentiment but at it's most objective level, they are out-numbered and worried about their future, not waging some racial genocide campaign for it's own sake.

"I don't think this tired old planet's big enough for two top dogs. If it's us or you.... Well, I'm going to choose us."

"As the embodiment of the executive branch, I bear the burden of ensuring the survival and prosperity of the United States and of humanity itself. A heavy burden and yet if it means the return of the earth to our children and to their children, I bear it gladly."

It's not racial supremacy, it's just - whether correct or not - us or them. The racism arguement insinuates something insideous that I don't believe entirely correct.

To them it's a war for survival and they've gained the upper hand, just as the enemy - the mainlanders - equally seek the Enclave's destruction to ensure they're saftey. Yeah the Enclave insigated the conflict in the first place but due to their own lack of knowledge and paranoia. They believe that they are defending the human race against another invading race and - whether correct or not - that is their ultimate motivation. There is a difference, either side in any conflict is furthering their own interests regardless of who are the "good guys" or who is right from an objective view.

Incorrect.

As per Federal Law:

A person is a U.S. citizen from birth if they are

-"a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"
-"a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe".
-"a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States"
-"a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person"

An individual can attain citizenship through parentage as well (something you are claiming the wastelanders achieve by merit of them being "descendant from U.S. citizens):

-If both parents are U.S. citizens, the child is a citizen if either of the parents has ever legally resided in the U.S. prior to the child's birth
-If one parent is a U.S. citizen and the other parent is a U.S. national, the child is a citizen if the U.S. citizen parent has lived in the U.S. for a continuous period of at least one year prior to the child's birth
-If one parent is a U.S. citizen and the other parent is not, the child is a citizen if the U.S. citizen parent has been "physically present"[6] in the U.S. before the child's birth for a total period of at least five years, and
at least two of those five years were after the U.S. citizen parent's fourteenth birthday.

There is no such thing as being a U.S. citizen if you are descendants of individuals 200 years ago who were once U.S. citizens. The law only provides for your immediate parents being U.S. citizens.

Thus, since sovereign U.S. soil has been reduced to only areas that the Enclave control, those born in the wasteland are not born in the United States. Another point is that the Enclave doesn't regard them as humans (near-humans) thus rendering the debate mostly mute.

Also, I find a problem with claiming the Enclave is illegitimate based on the status of the United States Constitution as it is today. Since it is very likely that in the Fallout universe, the constitution has been drastically changed. Unless you are wanting to claim that the pre-war American Government is illegitimate as well.

Incorrect. The Enclave is not a legitimate power, it is a paramilitary orginization who believe they alone carry the burden of America, they are not to different from the BoS or any other radical right wing paramilitary group in the United States. That said, the Enclave does recognize the USA as the USA, ergo they are the citizens, but the Enclave is basically treating Wastelanders the same way the USA treated black slaves and citizens, as chimps to experiment and supress. I'm not playing a race card, just using a comparison. By your logic, even the Enclave arent American seeing as they were in international waters.


Eh, we can't argue about the constitution in the Fallout Universe being different as so far best we can do is assume the constitution was never rewritten so it's similiar to ours until further proof. Then again, I honestly don't give two cares about the IRL constitution, let alone the Fallout version.