1. The bulk of in-game evidence and quotes from - especially from President Eden - suggest that the Enclave was formed from multiple pre-war Bunkers - that were in-contact and used the Raven Rock ZAX as a relay - who then went West decades after the war.

“The ZAX series of computers was introduced in the years preceding the war. The government installed many of them to help automate various systems. This facility was designed for Continuity of Government, in the event that a catastrophe occurred. My terminal was installed to oversee the basic functions of the facility, and to act as a relay between other installations around the country. Data was acquired, anolysed, and stored. In the decades following the war, I watched as the remnants of the Government retreated to the West Coast."

He later indentifies the same "remnants of the government" as those who developed the Project. Ergo, the Enclave Oil Rig had a direct connection to Raven Rock - even in Fallout 2 the PoseidoNet connects the Oil Rig to NORAD and SAC. It is an official installation.

2. The UN collapsed before the war, therefore the concept of International Waters no-longer exists; any nation could claim anybody of water with the only determining factor being that they could hold it.

Until you provide proof there was no concept of international waters after the UN's collapse, I can't acknowledge your claim. It's obvious the location was in an area outside of officially defined US borders otherwise the Chinese wouldnt have been able to claim that location (which they had until the US sabatoged their claim, which fuelled the Anchorage invasion) Poseidon Energy as an entity can claim a spot as a site they can use, but that location is still in non-US territory. SOOOOOOOOOOO, Enclave citizens arent US citizens. Prove me wrong milk drinker. :hubbahubba:

Battle-born please.

The United Nation enforces International Waters, if there is no UN as an over-all deterant the only thing stopping any country from claiming and - if need be - conquering any territory is any opposition and the conquers ability to hold it. If the US had been building the Oil Rig and then the Chinese Navy came along and blew evrything up before building their own and claiming the territory, in their law it would be a legitimate claim as would the US's claim.

Even violating International Law is only violating International Law, the deterant against breaking it is the combined power of the UN but within the US's own law the claim would be valid.

If we must consider the Timeline as canon it says that the US moved the 5th and 6th Fleet into the area of the Oil Rig - thereby enforcing their claim. The US could have claimed all the free ocean in the world if they had wanted but given that they wouldn't be able to enforce that claim it wouldn't fly.

And Continuity of Operations projects are intended to allow for the government to continue to govern the country and its citizens. Y'know, to protect them and allow to rebuild the country from the ashes of nuclear devastation? The moment the Enclave started serving the interests of its own members, rather than the surviving population of the United States of America, they ceased to have any legitimacy.

Quote from the constitution: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The moment any government or government-related organization suspends the Constitution or ceases to work in the best interests of the United States' citizens, they cease to be legitimate and become tyrants. I can sympathize with Autumn's Fallen (my name for Augustus Autumn's organization), as despite the fascism, they ARE the best hope for the disorganized, lawless East Coast. And they don't want to kill everyone (if you ignore Bethesda's design and go by Autumn's declared goals and script), just unite them, by force if necessary, under a common banner.



And how does that disprove my point? If anything, it proves that the Enclave has created an artificial construct to justify isolating themselves from the rest of humanity and then genociding them. There is no functional difference between wastelanders and Enclave personnel, to the contrary, they are both the same species, both are capable of greatness (creating advanced power armor and creating an entire new Republic from scratch) and both are capable of great wickedness (slave and drug trafficking, terror campaign against the Vault City).

Furthermore, judge people by their deeds, not their goals. You can use the same logic to excuse the actions of Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, their subordinates, hell, every megalomaniacal murderer in history. Doesn't mean it's logical or right.

Again, I can understand, if you support Col. Autumn. I support him too, he doesn't want to murder everyone (that's Eden's idea, which he vehemently opposes). I can't understand supporting the bastards on the Oil Rig, who came close to murdering every last surviving human in the entire world.




First, prove that the Constitution was amended to exclude the CORE elements that form the basis of the United States law.

Second, you obviously don't know anything about how law works. United States law clearly states that any children of United States citizens automatically receive US citizenship, regardless of whether or not a government actually exists and is able to enforce existing law. This doesn't matter for governments formed after the War that don't claim any continuity (eg. the NCR, which credits pre-War America with inspiration, but does not claim to be its continuators, merely heirs of its legacy), but for the Enclave to be a legitimate continuation of the government it's the absolutely most basic requirement.

And when you understand that point, you'll also realize that the Enclave in its Fallout 2 incarnation is a criminal organization, no matter how you twist words: it's always an elitist group of bastards plotting to commit murder on a global scale, including every US citizen in North America.




Correction: at least the Southerners let the black people live as slaves. The Enclave just wants to commit genocide on a global scale.




So? Again, you're using a very unreliable source as proof of a rather dubious claim. An Enclave-programmed Enclave simulation of an Enclave President will be pro-Enclave. What of it?



Uh, no, the UN doesn't enforce international waters. International waters (ie. waters beyond the coastal waters of a given nations) were always considered to be free, common-use waters. The concept of the free sea dates back to the earliest forms of government. You seem to be completely oblivious as to how law and international relations actually work. You should trust people who studied the subject.

Don't ask me pal, I'm not an American. IRL US has drilled plans - on a Presidential Level - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84 - presumably as long as it would take too return to proper operations I suppose.



Unfortunately there is little evidence to suggest that Autumn acted with any support from the people at all. Eden aptly says the following:

"Many people are content with a reassuring voice of authority, and never question the lack of public appearances."

How could Autumn organise any kind of rebellion when Eden can see everything in Raven Rock? Really it's more likely that the people assumed that President Eden had been taken to a safe location and Autumn had assumed command whilst an armed terrorist prowled the base. We hear that Eden later supports the troopers at the Purifier - and in Broken Steel Raven Rock continues to exist for another 2 weeks after the Purifier - and Dr Li also mentions that some sabotage has taken place on the Purifier when she's talking to you over the intercom at the end (you see my point, some troops down their took it upon themselves to sabotage stuff down there.



Hardly. We know that Eden gained sentience on his own and built his personality from studying historical archives, and how does creating Eden justify them? We do know however that the Oil Rig was connected to numerous US Facilities through Eden and that decades after the war orders were coming from somewhere to go to the West Coast.



I am not trying to forgive the Enclave of any crimes; just saying that they thought that they were doing good from their massively isolated position, thought that they were saving the human race. That's their motivation, not psuedo-Nazi racial genocide because they are the Master Race.



Autumn was hardly even completely opposed to Eden, his own words:

[Speech] “Why are you doing this? Why give your allegiance to a machine?”

“I am sworn to protect the Presidency. The chain of command must be upheld. I wouldn’t expect you to understand.”

“Eden betrayed you. See this vial? He trusts me more than he trusts you.”

“That’s not true. That plan was abandoned months ago. He would never go behind my back!”

“But you know he has. He sent me to do a job that you wouldn’t.”

“You could have stolen the vial… it means nothing. It proves nothing.”

“You know I’m telling the truth. Eden, the Enclave… both have betrayed you.”

“I am in charge here! I am the Enclave!”

“If you’re in charge, then you can stop the plans of some mad machine.”

“Stop? Now? Are you out of your mind? There’s nothing else to be done. We will push forward, and we will prevail!”

Guy seems to be under the impression that he's aiding Eden's cause, even to the point that he's in denial over Eden ever betraying him. My own explaination is that he never wanted to depose Eden just make him "see things his way"; it's likely that they had a more complex relationship than what we see. Ultimately - as far as I am concerned - Autumn got everyone under his command killed for seemingly nothing, doomed the Enclave and has the sheer balls to want to "leave in dignity" if you convince him that the Enclave betrayed him; I don't think Eden is great shakes either mind you.



See above, we know that Eden gained sentience and built his own personality; your just trying to find a way to discredit it as a source. You could go further and say that the Enclave programmed Eden to think that he did it all himself but in that vein I could argue that any number of Constitutional changes and Emergency Powers make the Enclave legitimate. There's only so much in-game infomation.

Why would the Enclave even programme a sentient machine on the other coast? What would be the point? Eden says he relayed communications and that decades after the war surviving Government Installations were seemingly ordered to the West Coast; oh wait the Enclave made it all up, how convenient.



So who is going to discredit any territorial claim made by the Government? Who is going to enforce or oppose the US's taking
un-owned water? We know that no Nations oppoesd it at the time, hence why the Rig exists.

You'll have to forgive me for not knowing anything but I wouldn't have thought that the U.S. government claiming territory - may be illegal internationally - would be illegal within it's self. International Law meant nothing, remember the Nuclear War between the Middle East and Europe, whilst the UN still existed in the 2050's; that broke "international law" so are all those nations no-longer soverign.

I may be wrong but international treaties have been made and then broken again since the earliest forms of government. Given that your the one educated on the subject could you perhaps detail to me what parts of the U.S. Constitution state that claiming International Waters as Un-Constitutional and Illegal by U.S. Law - which is all that matters in this discussion as no nations currently exist in any form to accuse the U.S. of illegality, nor is their an International Court or an International anything. I am sure that the His Majesty's Government didn't recognise the U.S. sovreignity for a while but look where we are now.

The fact that the pre-war government ran what was essentially concentration camps for Chinese POWS and Chinese Americans as well as allowed for scientific experimentation to be performed on its citizens is really proof enough for me.

Although I can't prove it, I don't believe its logical to assume that in an alternate reality universe that the U.S. Constitution remains un-amended and unchanged from our own.

Indeed in many ways the pre-war government was just as bad if not worse morally than the Enclave in terms of what they did. Are they illegitimate as well? Is there no true U.S. Government in the Fallout Universe?



Oh I don't do I?

Yes Federal clearly states that any children of United States citizens receive citizenship. If you'll read the excerpt I posted, you'll notice that this is clearly addressed.

However, are the wastelanders citizens? No they aren't. Would a member of the NCR consider himself/herself to be an American Citizen? No they wouldn't. Would a member of the Brotherhood of Steel? No, they wouldn't.

Their parents were not U.S. citizens, they are not U.S. citizens, and they were not born in the United States ergo under current U.S. citizenship law they cannot be considered U.S. citizens. Because they can claim ancestry from individuals 200 years ago does not make them citizens or mean they have a right to citizenship.

Likewise simply because they were born in North America in what was once U.S. soil does not make them citizens, not at all.

And yes, a government is needed for citizenship to be valid. Americans (despite what some members of our country seem to believe) are not an ethnic group and you don't have "American blood." Citizenship in any nation is only valid if that nation still exists as a state. This goes for America as well.

Exceedingly interesting arguments going on here...

I don't know what the point of this "citizenship" debate is, but I do know that it doesn't seem logical to assume you can be a citizen of a state you aren't aware exists and/or are actively rebelling from. Particularly if the state in question does not control the area you live in.

-Nukeknockout

Ehh, you forget, when the USA sabotaged China's oil rig or whatever was over that reserve, the Chinese were royally pissed, and IDK how they did it since the UN was gone (I think) by the time this happened, but they made the accusation on the global stage that the USA sabotaged their attempts there. The Chinese responded in turn with the invasion of Anchorage. As much as I disprove of war, by definition their invasion is justified.


I disagree, by your logic, anyone who lives here does not hold right the name 'American' even those who are descended from Plymouth Rock's pilgrims because they were here before America existed. Ultimately you seem to think a government is what makes a national word. It isnt, it's an idea that makes a nation, it's a belief in the ideals that makes you a citizen. Maybe through modern law paper and an oath makes you recognized as one, but at the end of the day the Enclaves refusal to believe that those born in the US are not citizens would make the founding fathers role over in their graves. The US is not dead, it is injured, gravely so. It's citizens are sick, not mutants. The horrors created by Pre-War places like Big MT or radiation of the War are the enemy occupying the nation, but it's still a nation, just a broken one. If the Enclave were TRUE Americans, they'd recognize this truth and try to restore America, not their racist ideal of what makes an American.


Who knows, these things drag on forever when they happen :laugh:

I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion. Anyone who lives here is a citizen as long as they were born in the United States, had parents who were citizens, or were naturalized as a citizen.

And Its not my logic, its United States Federal Law. A person is only a citizen if

1. They are born in the United States

2. They have parents who are United States citizens.

3. They legally become citizens through the naturlization process.

That's the short version.



Tell that to the immigration office.

Saying "but I believe in America!" isn't going to get you citizenship. It'd be good for a few laughs though.



I really don't understand where people get the idea that North America is still United States soil. Its not.

It would be rather arrogant of us to assume that this land is always going to be "America" and that the U.S. will always have claim to it. Its not the land that makes the country, its the soverignty of the state.



Aside from the Enclave, what other nation can even claim that they are the United States? The U.S. is a soverign nation, its not an "ideal" that will *wipes tear from eye* live on forever....

Is the Ottoman Empire "not dead but injured"? Can people still claim citizenship in the Empire simply because they were born in turkey or in lands formely belonging to the Empire (Egypt for example)?

No. This is exactly what we are talking about here. Unless you are going to tell me that nations like the NCR aren't really soverign nations, they are just "America is disguise" or something like that.

Simply because the NCR is democratic does not make it "the United States." As much as Americans want to believe it, we didn't "come up" with democracy. There were democratic nations before us, and its foolish to assume that if someone is democratic than they are "American for all intents and purposes."

No they aren't, they are democratic. As in the system of government.

I disagree with your sentiments. You see things from a law perspective, I see it from a human perspective. The Enclave was living on an oil decker outside of US waters, they are about as Wastelanders then. But ideal wise they are strongly patriotic.

Anywho, I don't believe NCR is 'America in disguise' since you can chime off that piece of paper to me, you clearly know American history. In my eyes America is waking up, new people arise, NCR, Vegas, D.C., all building on tech of the past to build a nation of new life. Over time I don't find it farfetched to believe with this kind of continuation the nation will be forged anew, the scars of the Old World will be reminders of the folly of a bygone generation and how we can avoid repeating their mistakes.

If I may be so bold, when it comes down to it. Its the law that matters. Not whether someone can believe hard enough that they are an American.



Doesn't really matter where it was, although we can assume it was more than likely U.S. territorial waters.

The government took control of the Oil Rig when Poisidon sold it to them, and when it became a military bunker, it effectively became U.S. soil. The U.S. Government currently treats its ships (naval vessels) as soverign U.S. soil, and Oil Rigs are included under this moniker.

Wrong, the Chinese would never have been allowed to set up a rig in US waters.

Again, the Enclave is NOT the American government, it was a shadow government organization of high up in the food chain corporate big wigs and politicians. Ergo it is not an official USAF military base, but a personal use bunker. IE: Not US soil, not US citizens.

The Enclave are a country there is nothing legitimant or illegitimate about it. People don't usually question if a country is legitimant they question if the countries government is legitimant. Usually when a dictator overthrows a democractic government he's called illegitimate. When the Enclave say the mainlanders aren't american they're right. America ceased to exist in 2077 with the possible exception of the Enclave themselves. But on that same token they have no claim on the country they abandoned for over a century.

I would question is Eden the legitimant leader of the Enclave? He was a machine whose purpose was to "ensure continuity of government in the event of national catastrophe". But he was a communications an coordination system. He became selfware and after the destruction of the oil rig he declared himself president in order to ""ensure continuity of government."

But is Eden the legitimant leader of the Enclave? only because they've accepted him their leader. But I'm guessing if his status as a Zax computer was public knowledge that would have changed.

I don't believe they did build it.

There was a "race to establish a platform" between the U.S. and China over that spot, but the Chinese lost out after the Americans "sabotaged their efforts."



Even if that statement is true (which by the way, I don't believe it is, since I believe there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Enclave is the result of COG intiatives):

A shadow government is still the actual government of the United States. IE. Shadow Government literally means "the ones really in power." Ergo, either way the Enclave is the United States Government.

More to the point though was the Pre-war government really that inept that it couldn't detect the construction of a massive bunker? Just more evidence that the Enclave was simply the U.S. Government.

Also if you get to use the non-canon evidence about the Enclave being referenced as a shadow government, then how is it explained that the U.S. President went to the Oil Rig at the onset of the Great War? Doesn't that suggest it was meant to be used as a COG location?

According to Autumn (verbetim):

"When the Enclave fell on the west coast, Eden was next in line for the Presidency."

Autumn here directly references the presidential line of succession, meaning that Eden was placed in the line by someone (likely Richardson after supposedly naming him a Presidential Advisor).

Autumn, even though he "rebels" (athough he really doesn't), recognizes Eden's authority saying:

"I am sworn to protect the Presidency, the Chain of Command must be upheld."

Futhermore, Autumn Sr. when he arrived knew that Eden was an AI, and still recognized him as President. The Enclave soldiers don't know he is an AI, but then again we really don't know they wouldn't have accepted him. Given that everyone who knows has obeyed him as President (aside from the exception of the LW). Col. Autumn for instance, obeys Edens order to "come up to his office immediately" even when he didn't want to (he was interrogating the LW).

Clearly, according to the Enclave, he is the legitimate President. I'm not going to argue that Eden could be President in our day and age, but keep in mind, 100 years ago many Americans would have thought it complelely unthinkable that a black man could ever become President, yet now we have one. So I wouldn't put it out of the question that hundreds of years down the road, extremely advanced AI's could as well.



Indeed. Which is why the Enclave see their mission as one of reconquest rather than "we are your government, listen up." They know they don't have control of the contintenal former U.S.

The Enclave isn't the wastelanders government, they are the Enclave citizens government (as American citizens).

In the grand sceme of things the question of is the Enclave the "legitimate" U.S government is irrelevant. As the United States with the possible exception of the Enclave ceased to exist in 2077. After two centuries does the Enclave have any claim of rulership over what once was the United States. Countries are drawn on a map by governments with the military power to back it up.



Here's where your argument falls apart. Only Autumn knows that Eden isn't human. Why cover it up unless its a problem. You say clearly to the Enclave but all I see is according to Autumn.(and the guy kept the self-destruct code around just in case). The Enclave aren't aware there president is a Zax computer. The fact that Eden's true nature is covered up is evidence he wouldn't be accepted.

Eden was never elected in this thirty years as president.(something he admits to when confronted). Richardson may have served six terms but he was elected for those six terms. Eden inherited the position and never gave it up. He's legitimate because the Enclave have accepted him as president for life.

But really the fact you can convince Eden that he is wrong, the Enclave is wrong and it should all be blown to hell is the greatest piece of evidence that he's only legtiimate because they accepted him as the leader in there darkest hour. There leadership was gone, they had no home but Eden offered a refuge. Autumn Sr may have accepted Eden as president because the Enclave had nowhere else to go.

Meh, whatever, this is just a debate of circular robot logic. Not going to waste my time hearing the verbose equivalent of 'NUH UH....BECAUSE.....I SAID!'

And the circular robot logic is one of the three ways you can destroy Eden.

To bad same can't be said of this debate. It's just a constant loop, it goes to point a, then b, and right as point c is almost made, they fall back to square A. :banghead:

Personally I don't know, because frankly I don't think it should be a problem.

Although possible reasons include for moral purposes. Perhaps Eden/Autumn/Autumn Sr. wanted to spare the soldiery the realization that the last member of the former administration is an AI. That the Enclave government truly broke apart until no-one but Eden could take command.



And Autumn Sr., his father. Unless we assume that Autumn and Autumn Sr. just decided it would be fun to have an AI as President, I'd say there was fairly clear indications to them that Eden was entitled to the Presidency by succession protocol. They also obeyed him, which means that he wasn't a "puppet ruler" to them.

Not only that, but Autumn (the man who supposedly rebels) defends him in the end, saying he is the rightful President (and that you "wouldn't understand.")



Presidents don't need to be elected. Eden didn't need to be elected as he assumed control through COG protocols (the line of succession). Futhermore, a state of emergency has more than likely been enacted and the 22nd amendment suspended.

More to the point, the Enclave soldiers never question his leadership. Eden says they are more than content with a "reassuring voice of authority."

They often die with his name on their lips. Its exceptional devotion.



I don't see that as definite at all. There are multiple reasons why they might want to keep it hidden.



The fact that the LW (who knows nothing really about U.S. politics beyond "YOU AI, YOU NO BE PRESIDENT!" is proof?

You can speech check people into killing themselves, Does that mean that it was the "right" course of action? People can be convinced of all sorts of things. Doesn't mean those things are correct.



If that's where you want to draw the line, that's fine. As long as we recognize he was the leader of the Enclave in Fallout 3.

Until later on down the road, we find out that Enclave soldiers are going "yeah that guy was never my president" or "god I hated that guy, he wasn't even supposed to be President and here's why:" I see no reason to doubt that he was supposed to be the Enclave's President. The soldiers recognize him ("For the President!" and "For Eden....") as well as Autumn.



Welcome to Enclave debates.

I hope you didn't take any of my statements personally, I just enjoy debating is all. And it takes quite a bit for me to back down from my position.

I would conclude that that is the reason he's stayed in power. The Enclave leadership completely collapsed and there is no one but Eden to take the reigns. He offered the Enclave a home when the Oil Rig was destroyed. When they arrived Autumn Senior discovered that Eden was a Zax computer and the truth was covered up for morale purposes.



Richardson was elected to six terms so clearly the 22nd was suspended as some point, but Eden was never elected he inherited the position. He was never elected to anything. He's said to have been a presidential advisor which makes his rise to presidency seem more spiritual then a political line of succession. The way I see it when disaster struck the Enclave he was a light in the darkness offering the Enclave a new home. He took control during a crisis and was accepted as the legtimate leader of the Enclave because of that.

Eden was built to maintain the Continuality of Government(COG) by coordinating communications the protocalls didn't call for him to become president. He was a monitoring system. He was never elected to any postion he was simply an advisor. (once again he admits to having never been elected)
Like many self-aware machines in fiction he took one aspect of his programing and expanded on it to his own logical conclusion. Kinda like VICKI in I Robot.


The Lone Wanderer was educated in a Vault he could know plenty about U.S politics.


That is where I draw the line, he's the legitimate leader because he's accepted as such. Doesn't matter how you came into power if the people accept you your legtimate. Where Eden and the Enclave run into problems is they try to enforce their legtimacy through the muzz

Nah, you and Enclave are cool guys, I just can't stand debates because you two never admit when your logic is flawed. :cryvaultboy:

Reasonable suggestions. I won't pretend that they aren't at least plausible.

Truthfully, we really can't be sure one way or the other, since Bethesda never went that deeply into the specifics (and we only got to talk to Eden for less than five minutes throughout the entire game).

I think my ideas have enough evidence behind them to warrant my belief in them, but I really can't be sure. We may just have to wait until more information comes out to make a final conclusion (if that ever happens).



Vault Education seems fairly limited to me. Aside from what can be considered "necessarily skills" I doubt they get that deeply into anything. Their ultimate purpose there after all is to work.

But I won't split hairs with you on that. I still maintain though, that simply because the LW can argue it, doesn't necessarily make it right.

The LW tends to BS alot when it comes to speech checks after all.

Which royally pisses off Congressmen and US citizens. The fact that drills are run doesn't mean that the Constitution would be ultimately suspended - or that these plans actually call for it. If you want to argue, then show a link to a declassified Continuity of Operations plan where it is explicitly stated that the Constitution is to be suspended indefinitely. Don't link Wikipedia as an argument.



You seem to forget that Enclave troopers in Raven Rock had no trouble breach a Presidential order to permit the Vault 101 Kid free passage through the base when Autumn simply ordered them to ignore it and kill:

"Attention! This is Colonel Autumn! You are hereby ordered to ignore the President's previous directive. The prisoner from Vault 101 is to be shot on sight. I repeat, shot on sight. This is an order!"

So, any claims of Enclave soldiers recognizing Eden's authority are baseless. As the game clearly shows, they only follow Eden's order as long as Autumn agrees with them. It's kind of a no-brainer: any soldier will follow a tangible commander, rather than a President he never saw (Bethesda's schizophrenic writing nonwithstanding).

That's the problem: Fallout 3's writing is schizophrenic. Eden is inconsistently portrayed as both Eden's opponent AND supporter, at the same time. Enclave soldiers in turn are written and designed as brainless mooks dying with Eden's name on their lips, despite the fact that they have no problem ignoring his orders when their tangible commander tells them to.



You do realize that I am referring to the pseudo-scientific artificial human/nearhuman division coined by the Enclave, right?

I am sure that the Nazis thought they were doing the best for humanity too. Subjective evaluation of a given action does not absolve anyone from guilt. Especially not bastards planning to kill every surviving human in the world based on fabricated pseudo-scientific evidence.

There are genetic differences between Europeans, Americans, Africans, Asians and Australians. That doesn't make any of them more or less human, just different human types. If there really were significant genetic differences, enough for wastelanders to be an entirely different species despite having an identical phenotype, do you think Charles Curling's fragile human/near human construct would fall so easily after pointing out that wastelanders are just a different type of human than he and the rest of the Enclave?




If anyone killed the Enclave, it's Bethesda's bad design and aforementioned schizophrenic design. And the Brotherhood's aggression, justified by Li's "[The Enclave controls the Purifier.] It's just wrong!" As for Autumn not opposing Eden:

"I'm not entirely sure Eden can be trusted. And I think he knows I don't trust him. But I don't think he knows I have the emergency destruct sequence for his console. "Priority Override, Authorization code 420-03-20-9" and... boom. It'd have to be a last resort, of course, but at least the option is there."

And you seem keen on adopting one particular interpretation of his words. Ever consider that Autumn is surprised to find himself outwitted by a personality simulation he thought he had bested? He even outright states that HE is the Enclave. Of course, we ARE basing this entire argument on Bethesda's evidently poor storytelling and writing.



Uh, subverting existing governmental infrastructure instead of having to create everything from scratch sounds unlikely to you?



International treaties exist based on mutual cooperation. Yes, they can be broken, but apparently you are a proponent of the rather primitive "Might Makes Right" rule. Sure, it sometimes does. But you seem to have missed how violations of international law (war) have led to humanity's downfall in late October 2077. Precisely because America and China thought that they might show that they're right through force.



The US rounded up Japanese nationals during World War II in internment camps and experimented on its own soldiers (nuclear tests) as well. Bad calls and decisions made in violation of the Constitution were made, but in the interest of the US and her citizens. Enclave's decisions are made in the interest of a small, elitist group of citizens and serve to destroy the significantly larger population of US citizens on the mainland (starting with some 700,000 NCR citizens).



Again, you missed the point. Successor states (such as the NCR) aren't a continuation of the USA. However, organizations (such as the Enclave) that CLAIM to be a direct continuation of the pre-War US government, in order to have any claim to legitimacy, are required to recognize the 2077 borders of USA and the entire common law system, including rules as to obtaining citizenship. You seem to fail to understand that citizenship is granted automatically to children of US citizens. If one is descended from US citizens and was born in US territory, no matter how much time has passed, he is an US citizens, regardless of whether or not he knows that.

This is how it works. The fact that you don't control the entire territory and can't enforce law effectively doesn't mean that it ceases to apply. It's a binary situation: either you estabilish yourself as the US government and continue its work, with all the duties it entails (Autumn wanted to) or you're just another band of raiders with fancy titles and better than average guns.



It is quite logical. Infants aren't aware that they were born and live in a particular state; does that mean they aren't citizens of said state? Rebels are also citizens; if they weren't, how would they be tried for treason? Citizenship is essential in prosecution.

Aren't infants entrusted to the care of others who are aware the state exists and are not actively rebelling against it? It does not seem logical to me to assume that the continuation of citizenship can last more than one or two generations after the state has ceased control of a territory. Hence why the people of India are not citizens of Britain, but India. The same applies for the NCR, Legion, and any other nations that arise in the North American territory.

I didn't get the impression that Lt. Andronicus was a proponent of "Might makes right"- rather, I got the impression that Lt. Andronicus was explaining that this was the state of the world before the bombs fell.

And I don't think the Enclave has to recognize the 2077 laws of America- If they are the direct continuation of the U.S. Gov't, then they could have made any number of policy changes since then. You try having a nation exist for 200 years without significant policy changes, including to it's founding documents.

I don't have any proof, and this is all that occurs to me as an outside observer.

-Nukeknockout