The Soviet Union in Fallout

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:14 am

One of the prerolled Player Characters in Fallout was Natalia, the granddaughter of a Soviet diplomat who went into Vault 13 at the time the war happened. The soviets are also mentioned in the tech museum in F3. It's easy to assume that the soviet union fell on hard times in the Fallout universe without collapsing altogether, while China filled the void left by the USSR without capitalist reform.


That would be best explained by Perestroika and Glasnost.
User avatar
Lily Evans
 
Posts: 3401
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:10 am

Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:19 pm

Since the Soviets we're one of the super powers in the Cold War, I expected something more about them in Fallout.
User avatar
Allison Sizemore
 
Posts: 3492
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:09 am

Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:03 pm

Since the Soviets we're one of the super powers in the Cold War, I expected something more about them in Fallout.


since there was practicly no oil left and the soviets rely on a huge war machine more then on advanced weaponry like the US, it's safe to assume that their military might collapsed because of the lack of resources, the USSR was never a stable union, without the army to control the mass, the USSR could have fell apart alltogether
User avatar
carly mcdonough
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:23 am

Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:01 pm

since there was practicly no oil left and the soviets rely on a huge war machine more then on advanced weaponry like the US, it's safe to assume that their military might collapsed because of the lack of resources, the USSR was never a stable union, without the army to control the mass, the USSR could have fell apart alltogether


Remember the Soviets had the largest army in the world, and prob were stronger then the U.S.
User avatar
Jamie Moysey
 
Posts: 3452
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 6:31 am

Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:25 pm

Remember the Soviets had the largest army in the world, and prob were stronger then the U.S.


as i said, the USSR outnumbered the US in terms of soldiers and material, but the US are hightech, look at the first ussr atom bomb, they took over 10years to build their first one, the us army probably implemented fusion power in their amry, but the ussr would problably take more time to create own alternative power sources, what the US lack in military numbers they make up in advanced technology. that's why the ussr army is the weakest, they take much more time to addapt and create new technologies
User avatar
NIloufar Emporio
 
Posts: 3366
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:18 pm

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:31 am

as i said, the USSR outnumbered the US in terms of soldiers and material, but the US are hightech, look at the first ussr atom bomb, they took over 10years to build their first one, the us army probably implemented fusion power in their amry, but the ussr would problably take more time to create own alternative power sources, what the US lack in military numbers they make up in advanced technology. that's why the ussr army is the weakest, they take much more time to addapt and create new technologies


Don't forget the Rosenberg case, the gov't thought they gave our atomic secrets to the Soviets, and before that the americans believed the commies would take a long time, then one day bam atomic testing.

But we got the Hydrogen bomb before them.

And with advanced agencies, the NSA, and CIA we got a huge edge in information warfare which was the name of the game in the Cold War era.
User avatar
Deon Knight
 
Posts: 3363
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:44 am

Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:11 pm

Don't forget the Rosenberg case, the gov't thought they gave our atomic secrets to the Soviets, and before that the americans believed the commies would take a long time, then one day bam atomic testing.

But we got the Hydrogen bomb before them.

And with advanced agencies, the NSA, and CIA we got a huge edge in information warfare which was the name of the game in the Cold War era.


the agencies were so good the ussr agents had a bug in a painting in the capitol :P(or was it white house) :P
User avatar
Ross Thomas
 
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:06 am

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:59 am

the agencies were so good the ussr agents had a bug in a painting in the capitol :P(or was it white house) :P

Your house :P

But since the Soviets and America were having diplomatic relationships I guess the cold war was shifted to the Chinese and the Americans?
User avatar
An Lor
 
Posts: 3439
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:46 pm

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:50 am

Your house :P

But since the Soviets and America were having diplomatic relationships I guess the cold war was shifted to the Chinese and the Americans?

i guess that is the case, like we see now china is becoming a super power to be reckoned with...maybe the exact same thing happened in the FO universe
User avatar
R.I.P
 
Posts: 3370
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:11 pm

Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:16 pm

Maybe China, but Russia today is still a nuclear power, and some say we are going into a new cold war today. Putin likes to see us fail, China wants a stable world though.
User avatar
Amber Hubbard
 
Posts: 3537
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:59 pm

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:52 am

you're right when you say that china wants a stable world, because their economy is based on export, but wait for 20years or so, when natural resources will probably be pretty scarce, everybody will make a claim and we will have WW III on our hands...and i think i know whop will be the major players
User avatar
J.P loves
 
Posts: 3487
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:03 am

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:32 am

you're right when you say that china wants a stable world, because their economy is based on export, but wait for 20years or so, when natural resources will probably be pretty scarce, everybody will make a claim and we will have WW III on our hands...and i think i know whop will be the major players


*Cough* Russia *Cough*
User avatar
Chloe Botham
 
Posts: 3537
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:11 am

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:08 am

Damn you all.

Is it not simple on why the Soviet union is not present


Did the bloody Korean war ring a bell?

Communist China invades the capitalist south alongside NK forces........

It was probally more to make a reference to the fact we were very close to nuclear war with China rather than Russia


General Macarthur was CIC at the time and he thought it was best if he nuked China to hell.

Lets not forget that the Soviet union was a heavy backer to China at the time.

If we screwed with either one, the other would bite back in your sorry ass.

-----------
Translate that into the fallout esque era


Soviet union stops is cash juggling campaign to fund China and lets it fly on its own wings with fairly friendly diplomacy.

China sets its sites on a country that can get it oil. When the U.S refuses to do so, it returns to the Korean war situation. Filling the real historical and the fictional gap pertaining to the "Korean" war as a whole.

I rest my case.
User avatar
AnDres MeZa
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:39 pm

Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:56 pm

The soviet union collapsed in 1991, the war happened in 2077. Of course, the timeline change might have prevented that, but since there is little mention of russia in fallout, there is a good chance that it happened the same way. I think the reason they have china as the enemy is because the original game came out 6 years after the collapse ('97), so china made more sense at the time.
User avatar
Cesar Gomez
 
Posts: 3344
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:06 am

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:08 am

I found it original of Interplay to have the Chinese the arch enemy of the United States before the Great War, and not the Soviet Union which in most media during the Cold War was the arch nemesis of the United States, anyone seen Red Dawn? Its a good movie from the 1980's.

Back on track, the purpose of this topic is what you think the Soviet Union was also against the U.S.? Do you think they might've fought the U.S. and helping there Chinese allies? Remember the U.S. at that time hated communists due to China invading Alaska, but it could just the Chinese and not the Soviets.

I know in the Fallout wikia that the Soviet Union and the U.S. had diplomatic relationships.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Soviet_Union

But since its from a wiki I doubt its creditbility.

I hope in Fallout 4 Bethesda might shed some light on the Soviet Union, maybe from a russian Ghoul. I'll think that'll be interesting, and also interesting to give some back story to the Soviets since they're the ones who made communism power to be reckon with.


Remember, this universe split away right after WW2. Its safe to say the Russians and Chinese never met on friendly terms, and the Russians and Americans became good allies with eachother. I think Russia was conserned with their own needs and problems at the time of the war, but could have supplied the Americans with intelligence or something. Its not even sure if Russia still backed the Communist Chinese during the Chinese Civil War that would have ended after WW2.

I highly doubt that since China makes its own varient of Russian weapons, and aircraft. Russia never supplies China with actual aircraft, even today. China is just given the blueprints basicly, and they make the Russian varient sutable for their pilots, and make some modifications. If you look at a Chinese MiG and a Russian MiG, they will be very different in some aspects like engines, control positioning and wiring from time to time (This can be said for the Chinese MiG-21).

Same with weapons, the Chinese Ak is smaller than the Russian Ak, and in some instances are completely different on the inside, but look the same on the outside.


China doesnt use up to date aircraft. They use the "old school" models that used to be in use by the Russians. The Chinese also develop a varient of the M16, but its only purpose is for export, not for their own military use.
User avatar
Trista Jim
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:39 pm

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:58 am

Damn you all.

Is it not simple on why the Soviet union is not present


Did the bloody Korean war ring a bell?

Communist China invades the capitalist south alongside NK forces........

It was probally more to make a reference to the fact we were very close to nuclear war with China rather than Russia


General Macarthur was CIC at the time and he thought it was best if he nuked China to hell.

Lets not forget that the Soviet union was a heavy backer to China at the time.

If we screwed with either one, the other would bite back in your sorry ass.

-----------
Translate that into the fallout esque era


Soviet union stops is cash juggling campaign to fund China and lets it fly on its own wings with fairly friendly diplomacy.

China sets its sites on a country that can get it oil. When the U.S refuses to do so, it returns to the Korean war situation. Filling the real historical and the fictional gap pertaining to the "Korean" war as a whole.

I rest my case.


Just a minor thing, General McArthur wasnt our Commander in Chief. That title is reserved for the President of the United States, not a commanding officer. General McArthur was the commander office for all US forces (and South Korean I think) in Korea. The Soviet Union probably stopped funding and sending supplies to China like you said, and then cut all ties with the nation and became allies with the Americans, or the Soviet Union just collapsed and stopped being a World Power.
User avatar
Charles Weber
 
Posts: 3447
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:14 pm

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:01 pm

I highly doubt that since China makes its own varient of Russian weapons, and aircraft. Russia never supplies China with actual aircraft, even today. China is just given the blueprints basicly, and they make the Russian varient sutable for their pilots, and make some modifications. If you look at a Chinese MiG and a Russian MiG, they will be very different in some aspects like engines, control positioning and wiring from time to time (This can be said for the Chinese MiG-21).

Same with weapons, the Chinese Ak is smaller than the Russian Ak, and in some instances are completely different on the inside, but look the same on the outside.


Chinese made or designed Soviet/Russian military equipment are: 1) Kit assembled or Soviet/Russian made. 2) License built in larger degree by China. Essentially licensed copy. 3) Unlicensed copies. 4) Localized variants based on license or unlicensed copy.

Modern Chinese tanks are good example, they are evolved from fifties Soviet tanks not from newer Russian designs. Technically pretty close to same level in sophistication as what Russians make in many ways. Another good example is Chinese J11, it's local variant of Su-27. First production batches were basically Russian made planes that were assembled in China, those had some Chinese parts. Later production batches have included more Chinese made parts and sub systems. Many of ingenious Chinese designs use Russian parts and sub systems, J10 fighter is good example of this. Current models use Russian AL-31 engine as it's lot better performer than current ingenious Chinese engines. Chinese WS-10 engine has theoretically better performance (higher thrust, better fuel consumption), but it's FADEC (basically computer that controls engine and it's accessories like fuel pumps) isn't fully mature design yet so it doesn't reach that performance in suitable time witch makes AL-31 lot better in reality.

Basically all older Chinese Soviet designed military equipment is from era before Chinese-Soviet relations went down. Soviet transferred most of documentation and toolings for MiG-21F before that, it took China fifteen years to actually start producing copy of it. Cultural revolution slowed it lot. Still Chinese didn't have expertise in designing relatively modern fighters so J-7 was hopelessly obsolete when it entered service in late 70's, it was inferior to newer versions of MiG-21 like bis or PM. China later had access to newer Soviet gear thru third parties like Egypt and Iraq.

Difference in Chinese AK's and Russian AK's isn't really size but measurements of certain parts. Stock length isn't that important issue technically, it's important to ergonomics but that is entirely different thing. Measurements of some internal parts are different, those are different mostly due to non functional reasons like production costs. Some parts of Chinese AK's and Russian AK's are still compatible. Most important difference between Russian AK and Chinese AK is quality control and materials, Russians have bad quality control and but use relatively good materials in production and Chinese have downright horrible quality control and use low grade materials. Difference in accuracy when compared to western assault rifles is mostly production tolerances, not due to design even when it is minor contributor in certain features like balance shifts due to heavy slide or not direct recoil transfer, those mostly affect in rapid single shots. Finnish 7.62rk62 and 7.62rk95 are AK's made with high production standards, those are amongst most accurate assault rifles there are in world.

Like you said weapons may look similar but may be entirely different inside, better example than Chinese and Russian AK could be difference between AK and Vz-58. Weapons with exactly same design but not compatible parts is another thing, difference between metric and imperial measured FN-FALs is good example. British L1A1 is made with inch based measures where most of other FN-FAL's are made on metric (original, Austrian StG-58), differences are tiny and basically impossible to see without comparing.

Actually the QBZ-95 and QBZ-95B is a varient of the British Bullpup Assault Rifle, licensed by China. It is not a Chinese varient of the French FAMAS.


Wrong. It's Chinese design, not license made. Bullpup is basically just lay out of design, one that places trigger in front of action. It's not even British invention as far as I know. UK just came up with typical modern form in rifles as first with EM2 prototype assault rifles in late 40's and early 50's. First bullpup rifle that saw somewhat widespread use was German paratroopers rifle FG-42, that one wasn't assault rifle as fired full powered rifle round (7.92x57 Mauser) but closer to light machine gun in it's tactical role. It's magazine was on side of stock behind trigger and pistol grip.

In our world, they had lots of ideological differences and territorial issues that strained their relationship quite heavily.
In 1966 they even ceased all diplomatic relations with each and did not restore them before 1987 !

At one time China even accused the Soviet Union of "social imperialism" :lol:

In 1969, the situation deteriorated so much that both came to the brink of war. A few shots were fired over a dispute about the Zhenbao (or Damanskiy) Island.

You see, i would not take it for granted that they must have been allied in the Fallout world. ;-)


Besides own small border dispute Soviets and China had different allies. Pretty much only communist country that had good relations with both was North Korea. Vietnam witch was supported and supplied in war against USA by both choose Soviets as an ally. China supported Cambodias Kmehr Rouge, probably most murderous regime that has ever ever existed*, that was taken down due to too bad human rights violations by Vietnam witch intervened to Cambodian civil war in 1979. That led to border war between China and Vietnam. China attacked when most of Vietnamese army was involved in Cambodia, got stopped probably largely due to Soviet pressure. Both sides claimed victory, border remained same and Chinese casualties were higher.

*Pol Pot and buddies killed probably between 1/4 to 1/3 of population that lived under their rule depending on estimate. Hitler, Stalin and Mao seem to be n00bs when compared to proportional body count/death toll.

In Fallouts alternate timeline Soviet neutrality would seem to make sense in plenty of ways. First is diplomatic relations with US during war. Another small hint could be AK-112 assault rifle, that is in FO and FO2. Even that bit strange assuming few things common with Soviet small arms designations that in usually go by format type of design, initial of (chief) designers surname or by combination of designers if there is multiple designers and if there is numbers it's in most cases year of that weapons acceptance to service. AK implies Automatic (rifle) Kalashnikov and 112 could be 2012. There is plenty of those in USA and it uses same caliber rounds as definitely US weapons. But I have to say that designers of Fallout didn't seem to be having clue about weapons design (technical) and history at least based on descriptions of weapons and images used. Stuff like G11 being modern, in real life designed in 1970's and 80's, so it's just about hundred year old design at start of war. Another small things like sniper rifles caliber, 7.62x51NATO (aka .308Win) isn't FO but in FO2 it's there. Another thing that makes me wonder a bit how many 5.56NATO (.223Rem) guns are more powerful than 7.62NATO ones. Bozar being 5.56 machinegun and using picture of Barrett M82 that is 12.7BGM sniper rifle. You know, details.
User avatar
jodie
 
Posts: 3494
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:42 pm

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:29 am

Even right now Russia and china arent in such good relations. Just think with logic, wont you want to have good relations with your potentaly deadly neighbor? both of the countries try not to anger each other and just become better friends, in which i doubt.

Right now there is that thing that many people call the "Chinese Covert Invasion" right now in southern russia there are a lot of chinese citizens and at least 80% of them are imigrants. i heard in one place that only in the most southern point of the country there are over 5 million chinese people. that would get every leader of a country worried... illigal mass border crossing.
User avatar
x a million...
 
Posts: 3464
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:59 pm

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:57 am

Back on track, the purpose of this topic is what you think the Soviet Union was also against the U.S.? Do you think they might've fought the U.S. and helping there Chinese allies? Remember the U.S. at that time hated communists due to China invading Alaska, but it could just the Chinese and not the Soviets.


Presumably, the USSR was on China's side and got nuked. But the fact is, if you actually look at their respective 20th century histories, China and the USSR didn't get along with one another at all. The USSR saw itself as the first and final bastion of socialism, and seemed to think it had the right to dictate terms to communists all over the world, creating puppet states out of all of its next nearest neighbours, making them answerable in practice to Moscow, not their own people, which is the whole point of communsim. Anyways, there was a lot of friction between Moscow and Beijing over their handling of lots of events, but basically, it all boiled down to resentment between the two, (China resented Russia's attempted control, and Russia resented China's lack of submission).

Therefore it's possible that China was at war with the USA without the USSR being involved, (that is, assuming the creators knew about this).

I get the impression though that they made China the main counterbalance to the USA simply because that is how they are seen today.
User avatar
Jordan Moreno
 
Posts: 3462
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:47 pm

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:18 am

yeah, it is very much possible. At that time the USSR and china didnt have good relations at all. as was said in an earlier post, it was even developed into few fire fights. there was almost a war... it could be possible that Russia actualy sided with the USA in the war against china, that is if china was a truly deadly threat to them.
User avatar
natalie mccormick
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:36 am

Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:47 pm

There's probably no answer really. As much as I respect Fallout for being a game in which one can immerse themselves, the fact is that there is not a huge amount of lore to the game. I think this is due to a mixture of laziness nd unwillingness to step on the toes of the earlier writers.

The most glaring omission from the game is books. Books exist, everywhere, and them, along with contemporary, (to the war period) newspapers could add so much more to the game if you were able to read them...but you can't.
User avatar
Glu Glu
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:39 am

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:16 am

Yeah, this way you could "see" what was here before you, what was in this ruined building or so. Maybe in one of the future fallout the game would take place outside of the US. This would be a... interesting change. A whole new place, culture, weapons and mutants, could be interesting :)
User avatar
Nikki Lawrence
 
Posts: 3317
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:27 am

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:40 am

A potential outcome for the Soviet Union, in 2077.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjDRkcroBpM
User avatar
Melanie Steinberg
 
Posts: 3365
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:25 pm

Post » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:12 pm

Now that I think about it, if the Soviet Union didn't collapse, wouldn't terrorism across the board drop significantly? I mean, a majority of terrorist attacks involving infantry fighting used the AK47s that happened to get spread to God knows where, and sold. So, of course it's not like the lack of freely-available AK47s would halt terrorism, but I should think it would have at least reduced the number.


Not at all. Ak47s were abundant because they are cheap to buy and make. Russians dont supply terrorists with weapons. Terrorism probably stayed the same, but not just as radical as it is in the real world. Theres other weapons that terrorists use as well...
User avatar
Harinder Ghag
 
Posts: 3405
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:26 am

Post » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:46 am

If you remember your Cold War history, the USSR would underwrite any nation that opposed US/NATO. With that being said, if we are also to assume that the European Powers kept their colonial interests, then it could be quite likely that many Marxist and other left wing groups, up and until the "Great War" had significant supplies of AK's.
User avatar
jasminε
 
Posts: 3511
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:12 am

PreviousNext

Return to Fallout Series Discussion