The 85 spells (if they meant actual spells) : V - Skyrim

» Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:03 am

Funny how people still cling to the same spell effect categorization, how now every spell will have slightly different versions for them (DEPTH AND COMPLEXITY).

No, this is the beauty of this new spell system.
Not every spell will have touch/target/aoe/whatever, not every spell will work the exact same way, not every spell will require charge, not every spell need to be held down.

And yes, there is a difference between a fireball and a flamethrower they're not just one fire spell.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:51 pm

Unfortunately, this statement makes sense when Skyrim is taken into account.

The Nords are a primarily Warrior culture. Their focus on Honoarble Battle/Death-in-Battle plus their Ancestor Reverence (much like the Dunmer) leads them to not value magic much as a cultural identity. Sure, like the RL Gothi/Gothia from Norse Society, they do have a place for magic in their culture, as well as a fair number of practitioners. However those individuals are viewed most often as the few wise-men/women, but still looked upon with suspicion.

So it makes sense that magic would be taking a secondary role in Skyrim. I'd imagine that if we have an Elder Scrolls based in the Somerset Isles (Aldmeri Dominion now I guess...), that magic would be an over-riding theme, and physical combat would be secondary.

As crappy as that realization is, it does make sense given that societal area of Tamriel that we are going to be foraging new paths through.

:)

But that doesn't stop other races from using magic.

-Breton for one are naturally magic users. They are curious and greedy for new magical items and spells.

-Altmer also focus highly on magic as well.

So, just because it makes sense in the Nords homeland it doesn't make sense for non Nord races.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:59 pm

Great job, am I being silly or have you missed out burden and clairvoyance?

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:45 pm

I guess clairvoyance is no regular spell. If it is meant as a game play mechanism (just as the compass and map, and I think it is), it will not belong to any school or count as a spell. Also, it didn't seem to consume mana in the demos, which makes sense in this context.

As it was already mentioned, that Nord argument does not make much sense. Merari, on the other hand, is nothing but a troll.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:38 pm

I guess clairvoyance is no regular spell. If it is meant as a game play mechanism (just as the compass and map, and I think it is), it will not belong to any school or count as a spell. Also, it didn't seem to consume mana in the demos, which makes sense in this context.

As it was already mentioned, that Nord argument does not make much sense. Merari, on the other hand, is nothing but a troll.

I am not and I resent the statement.
Spellmaking has always been in TES, its a core feature, it is what lifted Arena above a mere dungeon crawler.
The removal of spellmaking is something I am very unhappy with and I express that, as is my right on a public forum.
I maintain that unless a lot of thought has been spent into making and balancing what spells we have left, mages are screwed.
Secondly, it is a mathematical impossiblity that the new system is a varied and diverse as the old one.
I really dont care about flashy looks.

Now kindly quit applying condescending qualifiers on a genuine sentiment.

» Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:52 am

Spell Effect is not how something is done but is what the effect is. Fire no matter what you do with it effects enemies by doing FIRE damage. Does not matter if you do it with a flamethrower, fireball, or firestorm. Same for Frost and shock. And we have seen a frost stream very similar to the Flamethrower btw so there is probably a force lightning spell.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:34 pm

You all might not think this, but I think their approach to magic is quite clearly a good one. I know it was fun in the other TES to do magic creation, but this time I think it's closer to how
we wish we could. Will and desire - rather than calculation, magic was never ment to be about numbers and I think Bethesda have made a great choice in trying, at least, to make it feel like creative freedom for magic... ice in one hand, electric in the other - massively different in character to the idea of fire in one hand and clairvoyance in the other.

I think what beth are going for here is brave, and I think they're going for an artistic feel for magic, so that you feel asif those powers can be called at your will. Remember imagining you were magic as a kid? (or still for some of you live rpers). It's not about calculating things, it's about the imagination of energy circling your hands as you charge a ball of ______ ready for your enemy to experience terror.

Well said

» Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:41 am

I maintain that unless a lot of thought has been spent into making and balancing what spells we have left, mages are screwed.

That's like saying people using guns in Fallout were screwed because they cannot design guns... for some reason.

But yeah, this doesn't make any sense unless this means "no more gamebreaking spells" and that would ruin mages, and if so, then there were serious problems.

Secondly, it is a mathematical impossiblity that the new system is a varied and diverse as the old one.

It is if you take difference between 20pt of fire damage and 19pt of fire damage.

I really dont care about flashy looks.

What about functionality?

Not every spell is now a magic bomb, that releases everything at once at contact.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:44 pm

the truth is there has been little confrimed about the spells available, "the number of Spells = 85" could be taken a number of ways (already has in this thread).

Looking at the offical gameplay demos it would appear that spells require a certain level to use them (ala oblivion). (adapt to master) or that they gain in level through use ?

until we know the full facts of how the system works the "85" is pretty meaningless, for example take that 85 spells and divide it by the number of skill levels (adapt to master) and then against the number of schools.. that wouldn't be alot of varity would it ?

but lets face it, this is TES, i doubt very much like the magic system will svck. especialy with all the cash from the backhanders from microsoft :hubbahubba: :flamethrower:

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:39 pm

You all might not think this, but I think their approach to magic is quite clearly a good one. I know it was fun in the other TES to do magic creation, but this time I think it's closer to how
we wish we could. Will and desire - rather than calculation, magic was never ment to be about numbers and I think Bethesda have made a great choice in trying, at least, to make it feel like creative freedom for magic... ice in one hand, electric in the other - massively different in character to the idea of fire in one hand and clairvoyance in the other.

I think what beth are going for here is brave, and I think they're going for an artistic feel for magic, so that you feel asif those powers can be called at your will. Remember imagining you were magic as a kid? (or still for some of you live rpers). It's not about calculating things, it's about the imagination of energy circling your hands as you charge a ball of ______ ready for your enemy to experience terror.

I like my academic wizards. Not that I've anything against brutish sorcerers.

Dragon Shouts and most Powers are effectively spells, though. Dragon Shouts are lorewise literal spells, even.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:54 am

EDIT 2:
- ward disease, poison, paralysis (-3) removed, use cure instead
- added drain highest skill (+1), shield other and elemental shield other (+2), burden (+1)
- bound armor starts with curaiss = helmet, gloves and boots added at higher ranks (-3)
- removed restore magicka self(-1), added restore fatigue other (+1), restore magicka other (+1), heal other (+1)
- summon deadra now one upgrading spell (scamp, dremora, xivial) (-1)

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:13 pm

Reflect spell and reflect damage better be in as spells.

Imma be so pissed if they're not. So pissed.

Same for spell absorpbtion... Aswell as the elemental resist spells...

» Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:41 am

If the system works the way I think it does (spells level up as you level your skill), then all they've done is streamline it. And it makes perfect sense. There's no need to have a spellbook full of superfluous, low level spells when you're facing dragons at level 30-something.

And I'll say it again: the spellmaking system was never used for anything except creating god-mode spells. The most "creative" spells were just versions of "This spell summons an army of zombies, throws fire at everyone, shields me, does my homework and calls my mother to let her know that I'm doing fine."

Two-handed spell-casting, plus spells that level with you, means no need to have a bunch of weaker/stronger versions of the same spell effect.

Also: Dragon Shouts. And did you include runes?

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:59 pm

Sadly, they mean 85 spells.
The removal of spellmaking equals the removal of magic from TES.
We will just have to get used to magic now having none of its former glory or uniqueness and just hope that the generic pre-made spells are very, very well designed. If they are not and we get things like finger of the mountain, mages are screwed.

They did say they are unique. And the fact that you can level up individual spells as well as the level of the school you use too, it seems like it might work out okay. Yes the whole freedom and variety is gone from the spellmaking aspect, but I also think it would be kinda cool to discover an ancient tome from which you learn and incredible spell from. I doubt Bethesda have just chucked a load of spells in for good measure without really thinking about how they can be placed and earned through fights and exploration.

I'm looking forward to it tbh.

I just hope that they follow in Bioshocks footsteps a little more, and make it so that the visual effect of the spell gets better as the spell itself levels up from experience.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:01 pm

Awesome list, it makes sense, shame it probably doesn't mean spell effects, but that'd be asking for too much I think. I just hope that the scaling doesn't ruin mages, in any game I usually keep a low level spell I can reuse rather than get a big chunky only to be depleted of mana 2 seconds later.

Does anyone know if different spells can be combined for a new effect or was it just to have 2 spells at the ready? I think fusing spells would be pretty awesome, but I'm not sure how they could make it work (the demo had a good example of using both seperatly, but how would 2 work together [outside of destrucion]?)

On spellmaking, it's a shame because I would rather have a fire/paralysis combo and soultrap in the other hand to quickly dispatch of enemies and get a soul. Now I'll have to paralyse + soul trap then pause, navigate the menu and pull out an attacking spell, but as long as enchanting items is in I'm happy.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:45 pm

On spellmaking, it's a shame because I would rather have a fire/paralysis combo and soultrap in the other hand to quickly dispatch of enemies and get a soul. Now I'll have to paralyse + soul trap then pause, navigate the menu and pull out an attacking spell, but as long as enchanting items is in I'm happy.

Are they getting rid of hotkeys?

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:25 pm

Does anyone know if different spells can be combined for a new effect or was it just to have 2 spells at the ready? I think fusing spells would be pretty awesome, but I'm not sure how they could make it work (the demo had a good example of using both seperatly, but how would 2 work together [outside of destrucion]?)

On spellmaking, it's a shame because I would rather have a fire/paralysis combo and soultrap in the other hand to quickly dispatch of enemies and get a soul. Now I'll have to paralyse + soul trap then pause, navigate the menu and pull out an attacking spell, but as long as enchanting items is in I'm happy.

Spell combos are definitely not happening I'm afraid, although supposedly the favourite system means switching between spells is much quicker and easier than before.

» Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:19 am

well with those 85 what more would you need? so long as they all scale to your level of course.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:27 pm

We heard there is around 85 spells in Skyrim so I did a bit of research and I think I've got it..

Destruction 24:
- Fire spells = 5
- Frost spells = 5
- Shock spells = 5
- (target, touch, circle, stream, aoe)
- Damage (health, magic, stamina) = 3
- Drain (health, magic, stamina) = 3
- Drain skill (highest skill) = 1
- Weakness (elemental, weapon) = 2

Illusion 12:
- calm, frenzy, rally, demoralize = 4
- command creature, humanoid = 2
- invisibility, chameleon = 2
- light, night eye, silence, charm = 4

Alteration 12:
- feather, burden, paralysis = 3
- elemental shield, shield = 2x2 (for others) = 4
- water walk, breathe = 2
- telekinesis, detect, open = 3

Restoration 21:
- absorb (health, magic, stamina) = 3
- fortify (health, magic, stamina) = 3
- heal self, other = 2
- restore stamina self, other = 2
- restore magicka other = 1
- dispel (offensive, deffensive) = 2
- cure (disease, poison, paralysis) = 3
- turn (undead, circle) = 2

- resist renamed ward with perks for reflect spell (magic) and damage (weapon)
- magic, weapon, spell (absorb) = 3

Conjuration 16
- bound bow, dagger, axe, mace, sword = 5
- bound armor (upgradable), shield = 2
- soul trap, reanimate = 2

Summon spells are probably leveled and there are about 7 of them
- skeleton as one spell (normal, guardian, hero, champion)
- zombie (normal, headless, dread)
- ghost (normal, new, lich)
- wraith (faded, normal, gloom)

As for deadra probably
- atronach (fire, frost, storm)
- creatures (clanfear, daedroth, spider)
- deadra (scamp, dremora, xivial)

Total 85

So what do you think??
I removed absorb skill and fortify skill, leveling conjuration types (otherwise over 30 spells just in conjuration).

I believe you spent a lot of time on this but I'm sorry to say that your argument of 85 spells is flawed.

Some examples are:

Conjuration-You definitely will bound more than 2 armors (helment, gauntlet, bracers, Cuirass/greaves, boots). OT You never could before but I never understood why we can't summon light armor).
You forgot about Flesh Atronach, Imps, wolves, bears, tigers(sounds cool though), dark seducers, golden saints, winged twighlight, Centurion Sphere, and other creatures that will surprise us in Skyrim.

That's just conjuration, can someone else help out with the other schools because it definitely won't be 85, just 85 spell effects.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:42 pm

Are they getting rid of hotkeys?

Nope, hotkeys are in according to all of the demos. In the demo on the 360 pressing Y will assign that item/spell to a hotkey.

» Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:39 am

I believe you spent a lot of time on this but I'm sorry to say that your argument of 85 spells is flawed.

Some examples are:

Conjuration-You definitely will bound more than 2 armors (helment, gauntlet, bracers, Cuirass/greaves, boots). OT You never could before but I never understood why we can't summon light armor).
You forgot about Flesh Atronach, Imps, wolves, bears, tigers(sounds cool though), dark seducers, golden saints, winged twighlight, Centurion Sphere, and other creatures that will surprise us in Skyrim.

That's just conjuration, can someone else help out with the other schools because it definitely won't be 85, just 85 spell effects.

actually i never got why it wasnt an all in 1 spell... like the armor the assassins wore at the beginning of oblivion.

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:41 pm

Wow, i never even realised it could be divided that way, now i'm worried..

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:57 pm

Wow, i never even realised it could be divided that way, now i'm worried..

...why?

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:42 pm

very good list BUT i think we will see more cause I THINK they meant spells and not effects

BUT I could be wrong

» Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:50 am

I am not and I resent the statement.
Spellmaking has always been in TES

I did not say that because I disagree about the Spellmaking topic, but because you say that in almost every post, whether it is related to the topic or not. Srsly, get over it.

Back to topic: I want a spell that restores mana and drains (my own) life.