-I never said it was their only customer, just that it was by far their greatest. Also, Bethesda canonizes everything, every quest, every guild pltoline, they all happen.

-Which is something we can be thankful for I guess, we may actually get something interesting in the NCR/Legion areas post-Fallout 2. According to NV, the MWBoS still covers all the area from Chicago to Denver.

-Not true, the NCR existed because they had expansionist desires beforehand. Without said desires, which no city in the C.W. is shown to posses, even with the coming of a Vault Dweller/Chosen one/Lone Wanderer, a nation could have easily been averted, and even without ones coming, a nation could have arose, it would have arose differently, and taken longer, but it still could have arisen one way or another.

-And all those nations means is more wasted space that could be better put to use with no nations existing in them. I honestly dont get why people want to write off so much possible game territory by making up all these nations.

-Paradise Falls was, yes, but not the Pitt operation. Before Ashur and the BoS, The Pitt was nothing but a lawless collection of [censored] gangs, wildmen, and troggs. Paradise Falls also had a problem of being abel to sell slaves, one of thier previous leaders ate the ones he couldn't sell, they clearly lack such a problem by the time of Fallout 3 however.

That's not true. Harmon Juley (the Cannibal) ate slaves that Paradise Falls couldn't sell, yes. But that means people like Breadbox. I.e. the old, infirm, and weak or sickly. Ones that aren't very marketable in other words but ended up in the slave pens by some manner or another.

That doesn't mean they couldn't find enough buyers so he started eating the extras....

I never saw expansionist desires in Shady Sands during Fallout 1. And actually Rivet City working to take over the Water caravans indicates expansionist desires.

No they try and write quest lines so there are conflict's allowing all of them to be completed even if it wasn't the player character who did it. But when quest lines conflict they tend to write the sequel in such a way so we never have to find out the outcome. So the next SP Eldersrolls game will tell use the Dragonborn fought off the World Eater... but it won't say who won the Civil War making the choice irrelevant.

Losing your greatest customer doesn't mean you go out of business or your doomed.

Because we want our heroes to make a difference in the world. I played Fallout 1 and then Fallout 2 before Fallout 3. When playing Fallout 2 and seeing that the actions of the heroic Vault Dweller allowed the rebirth of civilization on the west coast was very gratifying it meant that our actions could have a lasting impact on the world.

Well it a good thing FO isn't TES and hopefully Bethesda will also notice this and give us what FO fans want, which is canon events. Well at least what most FO fans would want, and not have the FO series turn into a bunch of random adventures that never connect or impact one another, as that would svck.

-Rivet city doesn't WANT to take over the water caravans, its being forced on them by the BoS since THEY don't want to deal with the water caravans.

-Actually, the chioce would be irrelevant if you helped the side that lost in canon win in-game. Not specifying makes the choiche actually matter to some extent, becuase now you can actually play a senario where its psosbile they won.

-When that customer mades up the avast majority of your known slave trade... it kinda does, it wont be immediate, the slavers will have many long years of being a sliver of what they once wre, but without the Pitt, thier fates are utliamtly sealed since they wont have the money, or the ammo, coming in from The Pitt anymore.

-There is more then one way to make a difference in the world. Simply hearing stories about how people benefit from your character's actions is fine. What you propose is on the same level of all those TES fans who want each character to become king/emperor. You dont need a nation to know you have done something, you dont need to become king to be a hero.

Nothing to indicate they're being forced. How would they force Rivet City to take over?

Wrong because you'd know what your non-canon choice prevented from happening. Rather then the current model where either outcome comes to the same conclusion.

Its a stretch to assume they couldn't find other buyers, or that it was a vast majority, business would be down but unless you go in and wipe them out they'd continue the business. And remember the only difference between slavers and raiders in the former try and leave a few people alive.

Did I say you become king? no I purpose nothing on that scale so don't strawman me. The Vault Dweller only became leader of one community and an obscure one at that, he faded into legend. But even though your traveling in a different part of California in Fallout 2, the effects of his actions are evident eighty years later. Even New Vega dropped hints as to the actions of the protagonists of Fallout 2. I'd prefer the main character NOT become guild leader in the Elder Scroll games because it serves no real purpose as you never actually lead those guilds. But Bethesda doesn't do hints as to the player's actions in the previous games. They intentionally write the sequel so it never comes up.

-By shoveling all the responsibility onto them? You know, like Bigsly was trying to do?

-Who cares that both paths have the same outcome? That's actually pretty realistic for most things people do.

-I never said they couldn't find other buyers, I said The Pitt was their main buyer by a larger percentage, and this is very easy to see based on slave numbers in th C.W.

-I said what you are asking about the nation forming is LIKE the TES FANS who ask to become King, not that you said you want to become king. Dont accuse me of strawmaning only to do it yourself. Also, both Oblivion and Skyrim drop many hints to the actions of the player characters from Morrowind and Oblivion respectively.

Oblivion had hints such as how Modryn Oreyn in the Oblivion fighters guild mentions how "a traveler from Morrowind" brought him his families ancetral helm, the helm of oreyn bearclaw(obviously refrencing the Nerevarine), and skyrim has books that mention the reofrmation of the Knights of the Nine, and sheogorath who hints he is the player character from Oblivion, amongst other things.

-If the leadership of Rivet City didn't want to do it, they would say no. As it stands, the only people who seem disgruntled about it are the security guards, who'd probably rather hang out on their safe boat or at least have some paladins in power armor to back them up.

-But choosing different paths to go down is the entire point of ghe game. It adds replayability and makes it more interesting (especially when you're considering your choices). Everything leading to thr same place is cheap and boring to me.

-The Pitt is undoubtably a major buyer for Paradise Falls but that doesn't mean losing that will be the end of them. Again, they'd likely be forcably dismantled by a force that sees it as unjust.

-Except there is a major difference in that a presedent has been set by the first game in the series for this to he a possibility and it is much less difficult to code into a gale (in that, it's a part of the lore ans canon for the next games instead of being a major part of the current game).

-I feel like he misworded his response. There are far more than hints in the early Fallout games. There's a statue of the first PC in the middle of one of the largest settlements in the game. The Vault Dweler left behind a journal that confirmed several actions he made and we learned about the rest of his life because of him founding a village, marrying, and having kids. We get similar things about Fallout 2 in NV, such as a confirmation that the Chosen One was also a man and he had a son with a member of the Bishop family, who took over.

And I don't understand what you hate about nations so much. I find anarchy horing because we've been living in it for several games now, it's been centuries since the apocalypse happened, and just killing raiders, slavers, and hostile mutants is boring and not morally challenging.

Nations can have many different moral standings and make you question it and yourself every step of the way. The NCR is generally viewed as good but comes with a lot og the problems of our world. The Legion is seen as horrific and brutal but some are attracted to that idea. House has a plan for progress far greater than the NCR's but comes at the cost of democracy (my personal favorite for NV). Indie is for everybody who doesn't like those choices and wants Vegas to remain in the hands of the people who live there.

This is far more interesting and complex than killing a raider in thr wastes and selling his stuff in a town.

Civilization doesn't have to be that advanced of course. I'd love to see more tribal lands and states that have risen but are destined to fall. I'd especially like to see a game where every side is not just morally gray, but morally dark gray. Would make it interesting.

As I sad before

Fallout 3 cities lacked that charm. Fallout: New Vegas perfectly captured the charm of Fallout and Fallout 2, maybe because the developers didn't build towns around gimmicks.

>Implying Novac isn't a gimmick.

In general New Vegas did the feel of towns much better (Goodsprings alone is a better more realistically designed town than just about anything in Fallout 3), but lets not pretend they didn't fall back into the same problems on occasion. Building a town centered around a giant dinosaur statue, and then having a quest-line involving using cheeky toy souvenirs from said statue's gift-shop to power a working space rocket is about as gimmicky as you can get.

Novac is a hub for scavengers in the Mojave, built around a recognizable landmark that's visible for miles each way. It's a natural hub for trade between all the communities between the McCullough mountains and the Colorado, offering shelter, food, medical care, and a market for scavenged goods to anyone who comes.

The difference between Novac and any other town in Fallout 3 is that the gimmick serves as flavor, rather than the main attraction of the town.

Except when the primary quest for the town involves jury rigging space rockets for a bunch of wayward ghouls using toys from its gift shop.

The main attraction of the town is the dinosaur statue and its relationship to the REPCONN facility, and by extension, the Come Fly with Me Quest.

Its a gimmick town.

Edit: In general I agree with you here, but I think Novac is on par with places like Megaton or Tenpenny Tower in Fallout 3.

Dem's fighting words.

Novac has an established position, connection to the gameworld, and makes sense. That's the key difference. I certainly understand why you might think it's a gimmick town, but it's far better written and designed than any Fallout 3 settlement.

If it wasn't for Come Fly with Me I'd agree with you, but as it stands that quest ruins the town for me. Its the Superhuman Gambit of Fallout New Vegas.

http://www.falloutnewvegastour.com/2011/04/location-08-novac.html

I personally also liked Boone's quest and No-Bark. Repconn isn't the only thing that comes to my mind when I think of Novac. Not even the first.

Boone's quest is a companion quest for Boone and his backstory, which is what makes it what it is. Not him sniping from the Dinosaur. No-Bark is a hokerr, but not exactly redeeming.

My problem is not with the Dinosaur itself, which I'm aware is based on something IRL. My problem is Come Fly With Me, which is inherently tied up with the fate of Novac (depending on what happens to the ghouls, Novac can change. Either from the ghouls coming back, somehow, and helping the townspeople, or from the Rockets crashing and contaminating the area).

You use toys from the giftshop in the town (its most notable feature) to fuel the rockets, and depending on what happens to those rockets, the town's future is altered. Ergo, its a major part of the town.

While I do agree that Novac is pretty gimmicky as a town and being one of the worst written places in the game, it's still pretty well written and decently complex.

It's not like Megaton, where they decided to live near a nuclear bomb that has been giving off radiation for two centuries and there are no glaring plotholes, like how unbelievably old that lady who tells you about the history of Megaton's father and grandfather must've been.

I did raise an eyebrow at the use of the toy dinosaurs to fuel a rocket but that's really the only time that town actually took me out of the game.

To get back on topic, I wonder what the state of the rest of Canada is (assuming Ronto is in fact Toronto, Ontario).

It's probably mostly just tribes, settlements, and wasteland like the US is with a rising nation here or there but perhaps having a literally winter coupled with a nuclear one made that more difficult.

Now that's just uncalled for. The quest works in the context and it's certainly no more crazy than recovering a crashed B-29 or reactivating a Securitron army.

Crashed B-29, maybe, I have my own problems with that quest but its a bit more believable so I let it slide. At least the Boomers have a reasonable method of creating bio-fuel and enough spare parts in their hanger to make it passable. Reactivating a securitron army? Not at all. House had everything pre-planned. Its as simple as upgrading a software component. Its not like the securitron army came out of thin air or just suddenly came into existance somehow.

Taking minuscule amounts of fuel from toys in order to power rockets? That's just ridiculous and, yes, just as bad as the Superhuman Gambit. I can't imagine how anyone could defend that quest as being anything more than gimmicky. Complete with a rendition of flight of the Valkyries for effect.

I was talking about One for My Baby, not I Forgot to Remember to Forget. Former is tied to many characters from town (including Boone, because whether you like that or not he had been denizen of this town before you recruited him. So was his wife).

I was as well. Ultimately its still Boone's quest. Its his backstory with his wife being sold into slavery, and discovering who it is. Yes he's a resident of the town, yes the quest involves members of the town, but its not a questline which determines the fate of the town or alters it in any way aside from the death of Jennie (a character who's only importance is her relationship to Boone). Its Boone's quest. Not Novac's quest.

Come Fly With Me has a direct impact on the town of Novac itself. How you perform the quest determines whether or not the town is helped (by the Bright Followers) or completely abandoned (if the Rockets crash). Inherently its a far more important quest to the town than One For My Baby.

What's not believeable about Come Fly With Me?


I always track down the fuel drum, never bothered with the memorabilia. Never felt it being gimmicky either.

What's not believable about a gaggle of religious ghouls being able to successfully restore, relaunch, and fly pre-war space rockets using minuscule amounts of toy fuel found in memorabilia as an ignition agent? And somehow manage to land saftely somewhere to come back if the rockets aren't sabotaged despite have little to no training on flying or operating said rockets (no simulations for them).

Nothing at all I guess.

If that's believable. What's not believable about Super-human Gambit?

C'mon they had a vault mechanic with them. And we don't know what happens to them. I bet they all end up dead no matter what.