Logical fallacy. Just because it was never said something happened does not mean it never happened. Besides, that doesn't even matter. If it is the Ka Po' Tun, they will be dragons. The Elder Scrolls told of the Dragons' return and the Ka Po' Tun are capable of turning themselves into dragons. Seriously, out of any of the Akaviri races attacking Tamriel, the Ka Po' Tun are the most likely because they are the only race that accounts for the dragons that are confirmed in the game.

People should discuss this...

you didn't put akavair in the post, because thats what I think what will happen

"First I want to point out. Ysmir is the Nordic name for Tiber Septim (Talos) Ysmir (Dragon of the North)"

Ysmir means Akatosh....... The Imperails mainly believe in Talos, and have forced there belief on every other race the Nord's have several other gods never mentioned in the TES games exept for the books.

It's an interesting theory, Cipher, but as I think through, I'm going to lay down arguments for and against both sides.

For your theory:
1. For those who say "you can't have Mer v. Man because it limits the player": recognize that Mer are not bees or ants. They don't have a hive mind completely bent to the domination of man. It's a massive part of their culture, but I'd venture the average Mer isn't too involved with any plans. Bethesda could handwave and say "you're not one of THOSE mer. You're one of the GOOD ones." (but see below) I mean, after all, in Oblivion the player, even if you wanted to be a worshipper of Dagon, still couldn't join with the Mythic Dawn. He was forced into working with Martin Septim.

Against your theory:
1. It would be very hard for Bethesda to handwave away the idea of a Mer who went against his race's majority standings. The explanation would ring a little bit hollow. "Oh, this is what everybody else in your race believes, but it's not what YOU believe." It would severely limit role-playing opportunities.

2. The only way to do the Meric plot thing well, and STILL allow players to play as Altmer and Bosmer (Dunmer are not part of the Meric religious family) would be to make it a plot of a small group of hard-core believers. Does that sound familiar? It was the basis of the plot of Oblivion.

3. The only OTHER way to do it completely satisfactorily is to NOT allow players to play as Altmer and Bosmer, which Bethesda would not do. Even though in a split second, there would be mods on the internet "enabling" those races for play, they wouldn't be "canon". And it would make the entire series irrevocably "human" sided.

To be basic, I think we're trying too hard to tie the story into existing lore. Bethesda is going to add reams of new lore. Reams upon ream. Remember, before Morrowind, there was no indication of what the game would actually entail. There were no Great Houses. In fact, there was an entire story that there was no proof of in Morrowind (Prince Edward (feel free to correct me. And I know that The Real Barenziah references it.)) There wasn't even a Temple, a Devil (Dagoth Ur was only present in Morrowind as a mountain.) Red Mountain was eternally erupting (something that we now know is a very rare occurrence, and a VERY big deal.)

Lore has been added and refined in every game, so while we can consider the basics of the story in existing lore, we also should recognize the fact that NEW lore is going to explain most of it, as Bethesda wants each game to be seperate. Plus, I don't think they'd spoil everything in previous games. Vague hints and such, probably, but not detailed outlines.

I chose other. I think that whatever is happening is going to grow out of what we know from Skyrim related rumors which appear after the Oblivion gates are closed. Those involve aggression by the Nords.

Awesome theory.
I doubt much of it will happen, but it is very well thought out.



It doesn't have to be a small group. The Mer population in Tamriel could be divided.

That way, it is not unrealistic for the player character to help Men and Mer and it wouldn't too much like the Oblivion plot.

Another possibility is more player freedom. Allow players to help Mer instead of Men. Many endings are fun. Daggerfall had alot as far as I know. Morrowind and Oblivion didn't. Don't understand why.

High Hrothgar is the settlement atop the mountain Throat of the World, where the Nords believe they were created.

There are different Holds, or Regions in Skyrim, and Hrothgar in this sense is what I think they are talking about. Winterhold and Solitude are two Holds that are fueding/Warring.

Yeah I knew about the Ka Po Tun and Tosh Raka wanting to kill the Tsaesci for what they did to the dragons of Akavir and then invade Tamriel. And I know what they wanted to turn themselves into dragons and Tosh Raka succeeded, actually is rumored to be the biggest dragon on Nirn.

BUT!

The trailer clearly states...


The Elder Scrolls told of their return.
Their defeat was merely delay

And the Ka Po Tun were never defeated and never invaded Tamriel before.

The Tsaesci did invade before once in 1E 2703 defeated by Reman I.



I also found a thing in the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-third-edition-all-eras-man-comprehensive-history-our-history under the The Second Era chapter



The word "again", indicates this Akavir invasion was the Tsaesci that invaded once before, not the Ka Po'Tun.

The only other people that have been defeated before involve the Mer.


The other Mer I was talking about refers back to Tiber Septim and the new Empire.


So technically the Mer were defeated by the Human Empire once before. That defeat could be considered merely a delay until the line of Talos and the sons of talos are no more. Which that time came at the end of Oblivion.



Tosh Raka is the only known Ka Po Tun to have succeeded in transforming into a Dragon.

The Dragons that are confirmed to be in this game are more likely to just be Tamrielic Dragons that do still exist.

You got links for how you came up with this?
Because when i read this my eyes lit up because the thing is the theory I'm coming up with about the Dovahkiin actually has something to do with being a Warrior of Lorkhan and I'de like to include this, with links, if you got them.

I voted other. Initially, I was thinking generic fantasy dragons in general, but I don't think it'll be that much of a drift. While I'm hoping for something that delves deep into Elder Scrolls lore, I'm guessing it will be somewhere in the middle. I really like the idea of the elven uprising, but I doubt that'll happen. More likely is an Akaviri invasion or reappearance of the Falmer. Of the two, I think I'd prefer the Falmer.

^ I think the Falmer race has mixed into the other Mer and might no longer be around.

Your looking too much into this. Tosh Raka, is the only one that has transformed into a Dragon. ONE! and I remember reading somewhere he might have something to do with the aedra Akatosh is why. Like a Mirror or something of him... I can't find the text.

The Dragons that are confirmed to be in the game are "MOST LIKELY" to just be Tamrielic dragons. "LESS LIKELY" to be Akaviri Dragons and "LEAST LIKELY" to be a fully transformed Ka Po Tun Empire of Dragons.

Some more things that I found that could lead more into the back story of why the Mer want to kill of Mankind...





Since the Septim line is gone now this Aldmeri Dominion could be thinking it's their time?

The next writings come from the journals of Eric of Guis, Reman's emissary to the Altmer, who lived among them ca. 1E2820:



The Scarcity of Elven Writings can be blamed on the Alessian Order, which was tireless in ferreting out and destroying Elven writings during its long dominance.

It is just from the uesp site - there is a page with some known words in different languages -

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ehlnofex_Languages

The sources speak of an Akaviri Force, not an Tsaesci Force, thus they could be anything that lives in Akavir. Sure, the great invasion that Reman I. crushed at Pale Pass was led by Tsaesci. But a interesting line in Mysterious Akavir reads like this:

"There are four major nations of Akavir: Kamal, Tsaesci, Tang Mo, and Ka Po' Tun. When they are not busy trying to invade Tamriel, they are fighting with each other."

It implies, that the other Empires besides the Tsaesci tried to invade Tamriel. The text also states:

"Who knows what the Akaviri think of Tamriel, but ask yourself: why have they tried to invade it three times or more?"

Wich means there was not just one invasion that was brought to a halt. One other Invasion is mentioned in Mysterious Akavir:

"Once Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal, a king among demons, attempted to conquer Morrowind, but Almalexia and the Underking destroyed him at Red Mountain."

So, all in all, it won't contradict lore to much if the Invasion is made by Ka Po Tun, wich possibly invaded Tamriel once before. And the Tsaesci were defeated at Pale Pass, but ruled the Empire after that. Doesn't sound like a crushing defeat to me.



Yeah, you stated it yourself, the only known one. But do we know all about Akaviri? No, we know really litte about them. If one succeeds, why shouldn't other Tsaesci follow his example? Mysterious Akavir was written some time ago, and the only recent interaction with Akavir known to us, is that the Nerevarine probably went there - but he hasn't come back since. Our sources are outdated.

Falmer sound like the most logic after the teaser but it could also be Ka Po' Tun since it fits with the hint about Dragons.

The trailer never claimed that the defeat was at the hand of the Empire (or a Tamriel faction), just that it slowed them down...

If by Dragons you mean one dragon then yes but then it could also be Alduin aka Akatosh if they just meant one dragon. I really think the dragons will be the tamrielic dragons that still exist just shapeshift or hide in the mountains. What else are they going to have in the mountains?

Guys, are you really not reading my posts? So long the only answers i got were made in the Morrowind Subforum, is my writing really this bad?

The Tsaesci are described in two common ways:

• Humanoid, but covered in beautiful golden scales,
  
• Humanoid upper body, but serpentine lower half, covered in golden scales.

The common being the golden scales, which could more likely be a refrence to the scale like Akaviri armor. Their name also implies snakes and serpents, which would fit with the reference to several artifacts like the Ring of the Vipereye. Also, Septim V's invasion of Akavir was demolished almost instantaneously by Tsaesci. These alone make the Tsaesci the likely invaders.

The Tang 'Mo are monkey like, and are only known to fight with the Kamal that invade every once and a while. The Kamal are demons apparently, and thaw out of their frozen hell every once and a while to attack the Tang 'Mo, and dont seem to be the type to fight with the Tsaesci. The Ka Po' Tun likely, due to their love of Dragons, dislikes the Tsaesci, who apparently killed all of the black dragons and most of the red dragons, and would likely not fight with them.
Leaving two species from Akavir to invade Tamriel:

• Mankind, in some form
  
• The Tsaesci Empire

The major thing being, in the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Akaviri_Diary_Translation, which suggests that the invaders where bi-pedal, due to the messenger's leg being injured, so you can assume either:
A) Tsaesci are not snake-like in body. B ) The term that they "ate" man, more likely means that they merged societies with the men of Akavir, and Man fought in their armies, or where sub servant to them.

I like the second choice because apparently the Men of Akavir where quite strong, and would likely not go down easily. If you consider that the Tsaesci are apparently Vampiric in nature, they could have some kind of vampire infection to mankind, or adapted man into their society for their skills at war.

The invasion of Akavir was stopped at Pale Pass, at the border of Cyrodill and Skyrim, implying that the Tsaesci fought in Skyrim.

So in the end, the people who invaded most likely had something to do with either the Tsaesci or men controlled or allied with Tsaesci.

The only one I completely disagree with is Dragons. Could be any of the others, although I voted for Falmer. I will say this, I know enough lore to get myself into trouble, but I've never read any Nordish lore that would lead me to believe Dragons would have a motive to attack them. Plus, I'm thinking the Dragons would need some human element to pull off any plan. There must be deceit and trickery and Dragons are exactly suited for that. I guess Dragons could be used by someone to further their plans, but to be the ultimate bad guy, I just don't see it.

Yeah it's been long rumored that they can shapeshift and are very intelligent. I could see them playing a lesser role in it all with somebody else being the main enemy or threat, actually I think that's what it will end up being.

Yes I read your posts and you make valid arguments.

Alternate theory: Akatosh was tied to all dragons (in the same way that Dagoth was tied to the entire sixth house, and in the same way that the Dwemer were wiped out at once, and in the same way that the orcs were transformed at once, and so on). The Amulet of Kings, containing a portion of his essence, presented a means to bind all dragons to the service of the empire, and to use their power to maintain the Dragonfires; the price was placing Akatosh at the head of the human pantheon and strengthening him through collective belief.

The destruction of the Amulet of Kings effectively terminated this pact on both ends, though it took some time to for faith in Akatosh to fade and the power of the dragons to return. Dragons no longer are compelled to serve anyone, and thus can do as they please. What pleases them is creating a new empire where they are in charge.



Alternate-alternate theory: The greybeards are actually shape-shifted dragons. Thu'um is breath-magic (for example, breathing fire). Talos was the offspring of a human and a shapeshifted dragon, and was able to learn this ability from them. The plot of Skyrim represents a civil war between dragons (with the greybeards on the side of the protagonist), mythically represented by competing interpretations of the dragon-god, as World-Destroyer Alduin, and World-Protector Akatosh/Auriel.

ok so i thought i was a fan of OB because it is my ultime favorite game i spent over 600 hours on it but i didn't know that any of that existed with like all that stuff sorry i don't even know how to summarize that. CIPHER IS A G.. i really don't know what you said in the beginning it was way over my head looks like i need to read up on the lore (Who are the ku po tang?) so im just gonna take our word for it because it was ridiculously detailed and sounded very intelligent..good job