The Story Behind Skyrim v2.0 : V

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:38 am

After all the discussions I've read in the Skyrim Trailer Breakdown threads and the The Story Behind Skyrim thread I have come up with a new theory for the story in TES V: Skyrim.

Thanks to Iconoklast and Perilisk :hugs: You two gave me the idea, and deserve the credit. :trophy: :bowdown:

Okay. Where to start? Well we're going to cover everything I came across that allowed me to come to this conclusion so I guess it doesn't matter where we start from. However this time I'll keep most of the info in spoiler tags so it's not all cluttered for those who don't want to read it all, but I recommend you do.

Most the Spoiler tags will have info from different lore articles explaining how I came to certain conclusions. So please do read them.

So without further ado lets get started :user:

The Backstory: Reasons this is happening.

The backstory is about what Lorkhan did when the world was created. Click Below.

Spoiler

Before the universe existed there was Anu, the unchanging stasis. Into this stasis came Padomay, the agent of change, and thus the universe was created. _{(More on this later)}

From the chaos of creation came the et'Ada, formless spiritual beings, to populate the universe. Also known as the Aedra.

The Aedra are one of the two broad groups of magical or supernatural beings which existed within the universe of which Tamriel is a part. _{The name is from the old Aldmeric tongue, and translates roughly into "our ancestors". The term refers to a specific subset of the beings (called et'Ada, "original spirits", in Aldmeri) that were the original inhabitants of the universe.} The other group of original spirits are collectively referred to by the name Daedra, _{"not our ancestors", by the mortal inhabitants of Nirn.}

Now let's move on to the specific Aedra Lorkhan and Akatosh because they play a key role in all of this.

Lorkhan is one of the divine Aedra, and the one most directly responsible for the existence of Nirn. His most popular name is the Aldmeri 'Lorkhan', or Doom Drum. (Remember the latter name for later reference)

According to legend, Lorkhan approached his peers (the Aedra spirits) with a plan to create a new plane of existence, and to create and populate it with lesser beings of their own design. He was able to convince a group of his fellow spirits to help with his plan, while others suspected a trick or were simply uninterested and were kept out.

Lorkhan's plan was executed, resulting in the creation of the mortal plane/planet of Nirn.

During this process, it became clear to the Aedra that their own divine energy was being drained to help infuse life into the world.

Some of the Aedra managed to escape the mortal world, most notably Magnus.
_{Those Aedra who managed to escape the mortal plane before being completely trapped created the night sky. Mundus was still close to full strength when he fled, and in doing so, punched a hole in the night sky directly through to the Aetherius itself, which mortals see as the sun. The other Aedra were considerably weakened by the time they fled, and their escape caused much smaller rifts in the sky, making up the multitide of stars.}
Some of the Aedra drew back from creation in time to maintain some degree of their divinity, leaving them bound to Nirn but still powerful relative to the mortals. Most notably of these is Akatosh.
A few Aedra continued to sacrifice their divinity to finish the creation of the planet, leaving them weakened and unable to interact directly with the world. The last of these was Lorkhan himself, who is usually said to have died, with his body becoming the physical mass of Nirn.
After the world was materialized, Lorkhan is separated from his divine center, involuntarily, Altmer legend details the anger the remaining Aedra had towards Lorkhan once Nirn had been created. As punishment, they imprisoned him and tore out his heart, intending to destroy it. However, the Aedra were present on Nirn, and Nirn itself was the remnants of Lorkhan's body. (Thus his Nordic Moniker of God of the Underworld) His Heart was literally the Heart of the World, and it could not be destroyed. Instead, the Aedra threw the heart down to earth, intending to bury it forever.
One last group of Aedra continued to weaken, even after they had determined what was happening. These beings realized that, in order to maintain their existence, it would be necessary to procreate and bring forth future generations. Each generation took more and more of the divinity of their ancestors, until finally they had weakened to the point of being mortal beings.
(More on this group below, they are a major part to this)
- http://oblivion.wikia.com/wiki/Aedra

Is Lorkhan good or bad?

Depends on who your asking as the Mer and Mankind have two different views on this.
Spoiler

[list]
The Mer believe they were robbed of their immortality by Lorkhan, whom they reviled as a trickster. To the High Elves, he is the most unholy of all higher powers, as he forever broke their connection to the spirit plane. The Mer are seeking always to bridge the gap between mortality and divinity.
Men believed that they were created from nothing by the et'Ada responsible for Nirn, and thus considered their existence a gift and Lorkhan a hero. Men do not believe themselves to be descended from the Aedra. They believe themselves to be created from nothing by Lorkhan, and thus owe their entire existence to him. In their opinion, Lorkhan is the hero of mankind, and they object to his mistreatment by other races (Mer/Elves) They know him as Shor (God of the Underworld). -http://oblivion.wikia.com/wiki/Lorkhan

In the legends, he is almost always an enemy of the Aldmer and, therefore, a hero of early Mankind.

So to Mankind, _{and to Nords specifically}, consider Lorkhan or Shor as they know him, the Hero of Mankind. Atmoran myths depicting him as a bloodthirsty warrior king who leads the Nords to victory over their Aldmeri _{(the early elven race that through cultural diffusion evolved into the various present day Mer/Elves)}.

One Major Example of this being when...

Spoiler

Orkey (Old Knocker) another member of the Skyrim Pantheon _{(Pantheons of Tamriel being the major deities and saints worshipped in the different provinces and races of Tamriel. These gods play a major role, or have a major influence, on a game's storyline.)}

Orkey is a loan-god of the Nords, who seem to have taken up his worship during Aldmeri rule of Atmora. Nords believe they once lived as long as Elves until Orkey appeared; through heathen trickery, he fooled them into a bargain that 'bound them to the count of winters'. At one time, legends say, Nords only had a lifespan of six years due to Orkey's foul magic.

Shor, the Nordic version of Lorkhan, showed up, though, fought Alduin and removed the curse, throwing most of it onto the nearby Orcs.

EDIT: More in depth explanation of this http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1152130-the-story-behind-skyrim-v20/page__view__findpost__p__16865167.

Lorkhan/Shor takes the side of Men and saves them from a curse. First example of Lorkhan/Shor being on the side of Man and helping them, remember this.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:32 pm

Who is the Dovahkiin?

This part is the part I'm the least bit sure about... But I got many guesses...

I believe he could have something to do with Tiber Septim directly, a reincarnate perhaps, especially if the other Nine Divines kicked him (Talos) out of the Mythic like the steps quote indicates).

Why would they FEAR him?

They would fear him not as a mere lone threat but as a coming leader of the mortal men and mer united under a new empire. Starting a new bloodline, the dragon born moniker is said to belong to the bloodline of kings to the Cyrodiil Empire.

The Dovahkiin, whoever he is, is the 4th dragonborn.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3593710/Skyrim-Wallpaper2.png) I think those are the other three previous Dragonborns and the previous rulers of the other Cyrodiil Empires.... First being Alessia, the second being Reman Cyrodiil, and the last being Tiber Septim.

Hinting at how this Dovahkiin or Dragonborn will dawn a new empire and start the 4th era.

The Dragons/Aedra gods would fear this person because they want to “regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit" and not be trapped on the mortal plane of Nirn any longer

My Idea for who the Dovahkiin is

Well my idea, and this is just a guess, the Dovahkiin has something to do with Lorkhan/Shor.

Shor (God of the Underworld): Nordic version of Lorkhan, who takes sides with Men after the creation of the world. Foreign gods (i.e., Elven ones )

Spoiler

They primarily worship those Aedra which removed themselves from the creation process in time to save their divinity.

As with nearly all Tamrielic religions, they revere Akatosh, whom they call Auri-El, as their chief deity.

conspire against him and bring about his defeat, dooming him to the underworld. Atmoran myths depict him as a bloodthirsty warrior king who leads the Nords to victory over their Aldmeri oppressors time and again. Before his doom, Shor was the chief of the gods.

So the history of him vs. the other Aedra would give him more then enough motive to help out the humans with a hero when the time comes that the other Aedra want to destroy him and Nirn (possibly the same thing) and go back to where they came from as free spirits.

I think he is sending another Shezzarine or avatar down.
He has a history of helping out the three other emperors with shezzarines and/or demi-gods.

Each one of the three previous dragonborn Emperors was helped by a Lorkhan or Kynareth before.

Alessia had the infamous Pelinal Whitestrake, who was sent to Alessia to become the leader of her army. Pelinal was a demi-god possibly the son of Lorkhan.
Reman Cyrodiil was actually a son of the gods himself! The http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-remanada-1 describes him as the product of a union between King Hrol (and the Spirit of St. Alessia. And http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-remanada-2 links him to Tiber Septim even. Reman instituted the modern coronation rites, such as the Dragonfires. Known as the Culture god-hero of the Second Empire, Reman united Cyrodiil and led its armies to victory over the Akaviri (tsaesci Invasion) the same invasion that his father King Hrol had visions of. Reman defeated the Akavir and then accepted the fealty of the invaders and accepted their military and strategic input for the good of the newly formed Second Empire. (Worth noting the dragon symbol and the blades and all that came from this) The http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reman_Dynasty was ended by the Dunmeri Morag Tong at the end of the first era.

Spoiler
When I found out about King Hrol it got real interesting because when doing a google search for his lore page it suggested King Harold. King Hrol to a known Shezzarine, Harrald Hairy Breeks. - http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-timeline-series

Ragnar Lodbrok (Ragnar "Hairy-Breeks", Old Norse: Ragnarr Loebrók) Ragnar was a Norse legendary hero from the Viking Age who was thoroughly reshaped in Old Norse poetry and legendary sagas.
and
Harald Sigurdsson, later given the epithet Hardrada (Old Norse: Haraldr hareráei, roughly translated as "hard ruler") Harald's death is often recorded as the end of the Viking Age.

Could Harrald Hairy Breeks be a combination of the two? or at the least be inspired/named from them as we know Norse Mythology has played a role in the backstory of the Nords in many different ways.

Just thought I'de share.
Tiber Septim had Ysmir who was a avatar of Shor/Lorkhan to help him out. (Backstory on this Shezzarine http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1150358-skyrim-trailer-breakdown/page__view__findpost__p__16838257.)

And more importantly they each conquered or united all of Tamriel under one Empire and started a new era. Another Hint as that's what the Dovahkiin is to do.

Another God that might play a role in this is Kynareth.

Kynareth, whom the Nords called Kyne, was a widow of Shor maybe that's where the lyric "sole-single son" comes from? Making the Dovahkiin the son of the two? or just a shezzarine (avatar) sent by either one of them?

Kynareth sent Alessia a son, the Nordic demi-god hero Morihaus, to advise and aid Alessia. He helped her to rally the other slaves to her cause. From that moment Alessia was known as the Slave-queen. Alessia had Kynareth also sent Alessia visions that would aid her fight against her masters. The third of these visions was of another legendary figure of the First Era, the infamous Pelinal Whitestrake, who was sent to Alessia to become the leader of her army.

Who or What are the Dragons exactly?

Remember the one group of Aedra that that continued to weaken, even after they had determined what was happening to them. These beings realized that, in order to maintain their existence, it would be necessary to procreate and bring forth future generations.

If the Dragons are not these Aedra themselves they are an offspring of them.

The next line being the important indication of this.

With each generation took more and more of the divinity of their ancestors, until finally they had weakened to the point of being mortal beings.

This indicates to me that the “FIRST” of these offspring of these Aedra were not Ehlnofey but something else, Dragons perhaps. Because that above three steps quote says, “The world of mortals will be over.”

but after more and more generations of offspring of that group of Aedra the children became less and less divine and eventually the mortals were formed.

These beings were called the Ehlnofey, the "bones of the earth", and were the first inhabitants of Nirn.”

Eventually, the Ehlnofey would diverge into the various races of man and mer. The Aldmer, or First Ones were direct descendants of the Ehlnofey. These Aldmer are the ancestors to the race(s) of mer on Nirn.

The Altmer actually consider themselves direct-line descendants of the Aldmer and thus more divine then the other Mer. According to Altmer legend, the Aldmer were one of the two direct descendants of the Ehlnofey, the other being the proto-race of man. _{(They are mistaken here though as there were two groups of Ehlnofey not two different descendants, but the Aldmer are descendants from the first group of Ehlnofey and the races of Man are descendants from the other, more on this below in the Anuad)}

Mankind's beliefs differ from the Mer interpretations of the creation myth. Men believed that they were created from nothing by the et'Ada responsible for Nirn, and thus considered their existence a gift and Lorkhan a hero.

What is a Ehlnofey?
Read more about them and how they came to be in the Anuad below.

The Anuad (The More Info I talked about, same color)

Spoiler

The first ones were brothers: Anu and Padomay. They came into the Void, and Time began.

As Anu and Padomay wandered the Void, the interplay of Light and Darkness created Nir. Both Anu and Padomay were amazed and delighted with her appearance, but she loved Anu, and Padomay retreated from them in bitterness.

Nir became pregnant, but before she gave birth, Padomay returned, professing his love for Nir. She told him that she loved only Anu, and Padomay beat her in rage. Anu returned, fought Padomay, and cast him outside Time. Nir gave birth to Creation, but died from her injuries soon after. Anu, grieving, hid himself in the sun and slept.

Meanwhile, life sprang up on the twelve worlds of creation and flourished. After many ages, Padomay was able to return to Time. He saw Creation and hated it. He swung his sword, shattering the twelve worlds in their alignment.

Anu awoke, and fought Padomay again. The long and furious battle ended with Anu the victor. He cast aside the body of his brother, who he believed was dead, and attempted to save Creation by forming the remnants of the 12 worlds into one -- Nirn, the world of Tamriel. As he was doing so, Padomay struck him through the chest with one last blow. Anu grappled with his brother and pulled them both outside of Time forever.

The blood of Padomay became the Daedra. The blood of Anu became the stars. The mingled blood of both became the Aedra (hence their capacity for good and evil, and their greater affinity for earthly affairs than the Daedra, who have no connection to Creation).
(_{I believe Anu is Lorkhan and Padomay is Akatosh being the names we know them to be.})

On the world of Nirn, all was chaos. The only survivors of the twelve worlds of Creation were the Ehlnofey and the Hist. The Ehlnofey are the ancestors of Mer and Men. The Hist are the trees of Argonia. Nirn originally was all land, with interspersed seas, but no oceans.

A large fragment of the Ehlnofey world landed on Nirn relatively intact, and the Ehlnofey living there were the ancestors of the Mer. These Ehlnofey fortified their borders from the chaos outside, hid their pocket of calm, and attempted to live on as before.

Other Ehlnofey arrived on Nirn scattered amid the confused jumble of the shattered worlds, wandering and finding each other over the years.

Eventually, the wandering Ehlnofey found the hidden land of Old Ehlnofey, and were amazed and joyful to find their kin living amid the splendor of ages past. The wandering Ehlnofey expected to be welcomed into the peaceful realm, but the Old Ehlnofey looked on them as degenerates, fallen from their former glory. For whatever reason, war broke out, and raged across the whole of Nirn. The Old Ehlnofey retained their ancient power and knowledge, but the Wanderers were more numerous, and toughened by their long struggle to survive on Nirn. This war reshaped the face of Nirn, sinking much of the land beneath new oceans, and leaving the lands as we know them (Tamriel, Akavir, Atmora, and Yokuda).

The Old Ehlnofey realm, although ruined, became Tamriel. The remnants of the Wanderers were left divided on the other 3 continents.

(_{Hence why the Mer were first on Tamriel and the Nedic people came from Atmora})

Over many years, the Ehlnofey of Tamriel became:
- the Mer (Elves),
- the Dwemer (the Deep Ones, sometimes called Dwarves),
- the Chimer (the Changed Ones, who later became the Dunmer),
- the Dunmer (the Dark or Cursed Ones, the Dark Elves),
- the Bosmer (the Green or Forest Ones, the Wood Elves), and
- the Altmer (The Elder or High Ones, the High Elves).

On the other continents, the Wandering Ehlnofey became the Men -- the Nords of Atmora, the Redguards of Yokuda, and the Tsaesci of Akavir.

The Hist were bystanders in the Ehlnofey war, but most of their realm was destroyed as the war passed over it. A small corner of it survived to become Black Marsh in Tamriel, but most of their realm was sunk beneath the sea.

Eventually, Men returned to Tamriel. The Nords were the first, colonizing the northern coast of Tamriel before recorded history, led by the legendary Ysgramor. The thirteenth of his line, King Harald, was the first to appear in written history. And so the Mythic Era ended.

-http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-annotated-anuadLink to Article

Again thanks to Perilisk and Iconoklast for starting me out on this with your posts: :goodjob:
Perilisk’s post…

Spoiler

Alternate theory: Akatosh was tied to all dragons _{(in the same way that Dagoth was tied to the entire sixth house, and in the same way that the Dwemer were wiped out at once, and in the same way that the orcs were transformed at once, and so on).} The Amulet of Kings, containing a portion of his essence, presented a means to bind all dragons to the service of the empire, and to use their power to maintain the Dragonfires; the price was placing Akatosh at the head of the human pantheon and strengthening him through collective belief.

The destruction of the Amulet of Kings effectively terminated this pact on both ends, though it took some time to for faith in Akatosh to fade and the power of the dragons to return. Dragons no longer are compelled to serve anyone, and thus can do as they please. What pleases them is creating a new empire where they are in charge.

Alternate-alternate theory: The greybeards are actually shape-shifted dragons. Thu'um is breath-magic (for example, breathing fire). Talos was the offspring of a human and a shapeshifted dragon, and was able to learn this ability from them. The plot of Skyrim represents a civil war between dragons (with the greybeards on the side of the protagonist), mythically represented by competing interpretations of the dragon-god, as World-Destroyer Alduin, and World-Protector Akatosh/Auriel.

Iconoklast’s post…

Spoiler

I didn't link to everything I wanted to. Folk can build on the links, as the topics pile up.

@SkyShadowing: I'm a slow typist, and this forum is moving fast.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-nine

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-varieties-faith-empire

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-arcturian-heresy

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-skyrim

Don't get caught up in the name Greybeard, thinking these are old men with gray beards. Between their command of Thu'um (Ehlnofex), ascetic refusal of the world (Dracochrysalis), and station in the summits of Hrothgaar, I see no other option: the Greybeards are the dragons.

The Greybeards-as-dragons are feal to the Dovahkiin. If so, the dragons wouldn't be the enemy. Their stirring could be to arouse a tumult, which only the true Dragonborn would solve. Only the true Dragonborn could command their own voice, the Thu'um. Perhaps, as many have suggested and I forgot to put in the OP, the Falmer are "they," after all. Solves the mystery of "they," while explaining the dragons' pissy mood. Fits nicely.

Also from Iconoklast

Spoiler

Thu'um is ancestor speak. The Dragons are the ancestors. Not to mention Thu'um is strongest in the avatars of the Ysmir Kings, who were dragons.

Spoiler

The Thu'um is the voice of their ancestors. Their ancestors are the Giants. The Greybeards reside at the peak of Hrothgaar, because the giants are said to come down from the mountains. They want to become their ancestors. It isn't a stretch to compare Giants with Dragons, especially when the chief of their ancestors, the Giants, was a Dragon.

@scnell - The three look to be giving their voices/ lives to become the World-Dragon (its coiled and biting its tail). The three Tongues (Greybeards?) coincide with the Guardian constellations, and the Dragon with the Serpent, which bites at the constellations, season after season.

Spoiler

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-five-songs-ash-king

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fight-six-911th-cow

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-five-songs-shors-tongue

It may be that the exploits of the near-mythical Ysgramor conflate the reigns of several early Nord Kings, as the Elves were not finally driven from the present boundaries of Skyrim until the reign of King Harald, the thirteenth of Ysgramor's line, at the dawn of recorded history.

To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.

The Ysmir line is dead and so is His stranglehold on the mythic.
- http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:35 am

Bravo, lets see how this plays out.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:02 pm

Bravo, lets see how this plays out.

I see one fatal flaw: How can I ride dragons if they are the enemy?

/thread dismissed

lol jk

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:53 pm

Bump. Nobody has any comments?

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:03 am

I'm wondering if the lack of replies is a good thing or a bad thing...

Bad meaning nobody here is taking the time to read it.
or
Good meaning nobody has any quarrels with it so it must be right.

:ahhh:

Come on peoples give me a comment! <_<

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:42 pm

......You know the TES series lore is awesome when it can be so intricately interpreted and used to foreshadow coming games, such has never failed even from Arena on :foodndrink:

and Cipher, I would not be surprised if you disappeared in a few days or less.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:16 pm

Bump. Nobody has any comments?

Everyone is probably still reading it :tongue: .

While I (with my middling knowledge of the lore) think that this is a reasonable theory, I do have one question.

Why do you think Akatosh is Padomay? I thought Padomay was change and Anu was stasis.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:57 am

Because Aka.....

Oh shi I think he hit something

and yeah I am still reading too lol

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:51 am

i wasnt going to leave a comment, but since u asked then i think what u've posted has definately been really helpful both for getting excited about the next game, and flushing out some interesting lore. do u think you could give some details on the daedra and how they differ from the aedra and i can't remember what Lorkhan got out of his little spiel. if you could provide me with the answers i'd be happy, otherwise i'll just need to either forget the questions or look into them myself lol

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:08 am

for lack of a proper response to such an intricate theory (almost comes off as tinfoil hat intricate... almost), here's http://i53.tinypic.com/2dqovc.png

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:58 pm

Everyone is probably still reading it :tongue: .

While I (with my middling knowledge of the lore) think that this is a reasonable theory, I do have one question.

Why do you think Akatosh is Padomay? I thought Padomay was change and Anu was stasis.

Well the blue text section is why, but really it's just a different take on the creation myths. The reason I actually put what i thought in there was because Anu tried saving creation by forming the remnants of the 12 worlds into one -- Nirn and in the other creation myth we know Lorkhan as the one who wanted to and did trick/convince the other Aedra into letting him create Nirn. I imagine the truth lies somewhere inbetween, maybe this whole Nir lovestory bit came before the other Aedra formed, when Lorkhan and Akatosh were the only two. Or something... who knows.

The underlined part was the reason i included that bit of text though.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:07 am

for lack of a proper response to such an intricate theory (almost comes off as tinfoil hat intricate... almost), here's http://i53.tinypic.com/2dqovc.png

:rofl: When I read this I wholeheartedly expected http://kimsal.com/rabbit_pancake.jpg to be the link...

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:45 pm

:rofl: When I read this I wholeheartedly expected http://kimsal.com/rabbit_pancake.jpg to be the link...

you should take this to the imperial library forums
they're a little... slow, but more likely to actually understand what you're talking about

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:20 am

i wasnt going to leave a comment, but since u asked then i think what u've posted has definately been really helpful both for getting excited about the next game, and flushing out some interesting lore. do u think you could give some details on the daedra and how they differ from the aedra and i can't remember what Lorkhan got out of his little spiel. if you could provide me with the answers i'd be happy, otherwise i'll just need to either forget the questions or look into them myself lol

While it's true I did for a second think of the Dragons being the daedra but then I read this...

Spoiler

"Unlike the powerful Daedra, the Aedra do not have their own native planes within Oblivion. Rather, the act of creation bound them permanently to the mortal plane. Additionally, their power was so reduced that the Aedra lost the ability to manifest themselves physically, or to interact directly with their creation. This limitation is one of the prime forces behind the existence of daedra worship; since the Daedric Lords did not give up their strength to create Nirn, they retain the power to interfere with the mortal world, and are thus attractive to the power-hungry among the mortals. "

So they would have no motive to be the Dragons because they are not bound to the mortal plane of Nirn.

The et'Ada, "original spirits", in Aldmeri, consist of two broad groups of magical or supernatural beings which exist within the universe of which Tamriel is a part. The first group being the The Aedra, "our ancestors", and the remainder of these original spirits are collectively referred to by the name Daedra, "not our ancestors", by the mortal inhabitants of Nirn.

Spoiler

During the Mythic Era, and early in the First Era, there are numerous accounts of Aedra (and Daedra) appearing physically on Nirn, and interacting with its peoples. The Aedra that appeared in this manner were limited to those that did not give up their divinity fully to become the planets (the Eight Divines).

Near the start of the First Era, the Aedra Akatosh made a pact with the newly crowned queen of Cyrodiil that bound the Daedra from entering Nirn; since this time, no Aedra has been seen either. However, the Aedra still possess the ability to interact spiritually or magically with Nirn, such as through the shrines and altars scattered about Cyrodiil.

It should be noted that, when the Oblivion barriers were breached during the Third Age, and Mehrunes Dagon appeared physically in the Imperial City, he was defeated not by Akatosh himself, but by a projection of Akatosh's spirit into a mortal's body. (Martin Septim) This would indicate that at least some Aedra are permanently bound from existing physically on the mortal plane.

-http://oblivion.wikia.com/wiki/Daedra

Hope this helped, if not there's probably tons more on them. I didn't exactly read a ton on the Daedra and I feel bad but I haven't completed Oblivion yet, I got caught up in all the sidetrack missions and eventually stopped playing it BUT! don't worry I'm going back and playing Morrowind, which i loved and played forever back in the day and then I'm going to play through the main story of Oblivion so I can experience them both back to back in order. Should be fun.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:02 pm

Well the blue text section is why, but really it's just a different take on the creation myths. The reason I actually put what i thought in there was because Anu tried saving creation by forming the remnants of the 12 worlds into one -- Nirn and in the other creation myth we know Lorkhan as the one who wanted to and did trick/convince the other Aedra into letting him create Nirn. I imagine the truth lies somewhere inbetween, maybe this whole Nir lovestory bit came before the other Aedra formed, when Lorkhan and Akatosh were the only two. Or something... who knows.

The underlined part was the reason i included that bit of text though.

Well you are right to suspect something like that. Though other things are disputed, Lorkhan and Akatosh are present in every religion. I only asked because I've always considered Akatosh to be aligned with Anu because liner time is kind of like imposing stasis (or at least order) onto chaos. Lorkhan took the potential for change and used it to make what could be, or in this case, Creation.

And I do think that the whole Anu and Padomay drama may have happened first. Nirn is a mix of stasis and change. Constant rules and time mixed with possibility and change.

BUT,it doesn't really affect your theory, so it is still a strong idea.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:40 pm

That was a great read, and I sure as oblivion can't dismiss it.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:22 am

now Cipher if you haven't already, I humbly ask you get your ass to the TES Lore section of the forums and post this.....with all due haste yeah?

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:17 pm

now Cipher if you haven't already, I humbly ask you get your ass to the TES Lore section of the forums and post this.....with all due haste yeah?

I agree. I would like to see what those more knowledgeable than myself have to say.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:34 am

I'm wondering if the lack of replies is a good thing or a bad thing...

Bad meaning nobody here is taking the time to read it.
or
Good meaning nobody has any quarrels with it so it must be right.

:ahhh:

Come on peoples give me a comment! <_<

I read the entire thing, and I am very impressed with the conclusions you have drawn. others were probably intimidated by how long the post was.

Once again though, bravo.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:43 am

I posted my comments in your TIL thread. In short, I don't think you proved your title, but the fact that elves want to overthrow the mortal realm is a given. Props on the research, its nice to see this stuff outside the occasional lore forum thread.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:29 am

Wait wait wait wait... I have one quibble.

Above you name the Tsaeci as men, descendants from the second branch of the Elnohfey. However, the only description that says Tsaeci are men are the ghosts and skeletons and pale pass, which I'm pretty sure are only man-like due to laziness in monster creation in Oblivion. In every other piece of source material, including in-game books, the Tsaeci are the Vampire-Snakes, reptilian, bipedal akaviri folk that fight with the Ka Po Tun for supremacy.

In the tales of gladiatorial combat between Reman Cyrodiil and his Akaviri Potentate's sons, it describes the Akaviri son using his tail to trip up Reman's son.

The Secrets of the Akavir strictly defines the Tsaeci as the vampire snakes, with the Tiger Dragon himself saying, "First we deal with the vampire snakes, then we deal with Tamriel" or some such. I'm paraphrasing here. It's never said whether the Tsaeci are really vampires, or are only called such because they eat their enemies, their snake-fangs, rituals, etc. However, the Tsaeci are -not- men. Calling the Tsaeci men would be like calling Argonians a race of men.

At least... that's how I've interpreted the information. If you have something that refutes this, please, tell me.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:24 am

Wait wait wait wait... I have one quibble.

Above you name the Tsaeci as men, descendants from the second branch of the Elnohfey.

The Annuad describes the Tsaesci as 'men,' i.e. the Wandering Ehlnofey. It is more of an ideological description than a physical one. The "Elves" (Old Ehlnofey) are those who see Lorkhan as bad, the "Men" are those who see him as good. Generally, anyways, it all gets muddled when you throw Redguards, Dunmer, and Dwemer into the mix.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:35 am

Ah man... Now I'm going to be disappointed with Skyrim if it does simply turn out to be an Akaviri invasion.... :confused:

Great stuff here. Very well done! I'm certainly rooting for your theory now... :foodndrink:

Still, I don't think this theory is completely incompatible with the Akavir invasion one. I mean, if Tosh Raka has indeed mantled Akatosh, and taught his people how to mantle dragons, they would be the perfect tool for Akatosh to launch a campaign to exterminate men. Who knows...they might have already succeeded in destroying the Tsaesci men of Akavir.

EDIT:

Tsaeci/Ka Po Tun conflict in Akavir may mirror the Men/Mer conflict in Tamriel.

» Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:13 pm

I posted my comments in your TIL thread. In short, I don't think you proved your title, but the fact that elves want to overthrow the mortal realm is a given. Props on the research, its nice to see this stuff outside the occasional lore forum thread.

Bump. Thanks Lady N, that means a lot coming from you.

Right or Wrong, I enjoyed furthering my understanding of the Lore.