What bothers me is that Titus Mede II just surrendered to the Aldmeri right after retaking the Imperial City. I understand that the Legions are exhausted and incredibly weak after 5 years of war. But it seemed that the emperor didn't bothered to have a treaty that would atleast be more fair to both parties. And given that the Thalmor's military was damaged by the Legion too during the war, they may have been forced to comply to their demands to an extent.

Now, say that the Emperor did managed to make a more fair treaty in which Talos worship is legal, blades are not disbanded, The Thalmor have a limited presence in the forms of embassies but does not dictate the Empire's affairs, But The Aldmeri Dominion has control over the small islands owned by hammerfell. How different would the events in Skyrim would be?

That's why i killed him

To quote the loading screens:
"Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold-Concordat, the Empire was able to survive the onslaught of the Aldmeri Dominion.".

It was not as Mede or the Empire had a choice.

I think of it like being down in a game 5 to 10 (as in the scoreboard was 5-10.. with the Thalmor in the lead), and some sacrifices and good luck happened where it suddenly narrowed to a 10-10 at the end, but at point, all of the Empire's power was put on the line, and the Thalmor still had much in reserve elsewhere. It was a good final show of force, but not enough for any real follow through. And on top of that, their Imperial city had been crushed.. the sight of it, and all the suffering civilizians probably demoralized them. Usually people aren't good at charging in like Rambo in the sight of mass suffering.. the whole thing becomes a pointless nightmare at that point, and people lose the energy for war.

But the Empire did weakened the Dominion's military to the point where they could not continue their campaign in Cyrodiil. And given that it could be assumed that Mede could of easily negotiate his way to a more neutral favored treaty if he chose to.

The Thalmor played a dangerous game and they won.
They got everything they wanted before the war.

The Redguards disagree.

Sometimes you just need to quit while you're ahead. Sure, Mede had just reclaimed the Imperial City and forced back the Dominion's forces, but continuing the war could have been a disaster. Remember, they still had to reclaim Bravil and Leyawiin, and after that they would have needed to duke it out in Hammerfell to liberate that province. Not only was this probably beyond the scope of his remaining forces, but at any point they could have suffered further setbacks or another disaster, which would have returned the initiative to the Dominion. The deal wasn't an entirely bad one either - they had the pre-war borders restored, which returned both Bravil and Leyawiin to the Imperial fold. They got out of their obligation to defend Hammerfell (while also enabling the Redguard - and their own legionary veterans whom they had left behind - to keep fighting the Thalmor). Talos worship was banned, but the Empire didn't bother to really enforce the ban, so as long as you kept it on the down low and didn't pull a Heimskr. Losing the Blades wasn't particularly a loss either - the Blades weren't particularly loyal (although perhaps they were at least sympathetic) to the Empire or the Medes. They were loyal to the Septims, and the Septims were all gone. And the Empire received a precious recuperation time, a period which they could rebuild and be prepared for the next inevitable war.

This reminds me a lot of the Korean War, if you're familiar. Western troops were beating back the North Koreans quite rapidly, but they were supposed to halt their advance at North Korea's border. The military command, however, couldn't stand to halt when they were making so much progress, and decided to continue advancing into North Korea in pursuit of an unconditional surrender and a reunited Korea. The western forces drove the North Korean forces almost right to the Chinese border, but then the People's Republic entered the war and turned the allied advance into a non-stop retreat. Only a determined defense at the tip of South Korea saved the western forces from being driven into the sea. Having almost lost the war, the allies counter attacked and slowly managed to push the Chinese and North Koreans back to something resembling the pre-war boundaries before peace was finally sought.

Great victories can easily be turned into even greater reversals as quickly as blue skies can turn gray. There was too much at risk to continue this conflict. Mede made the right decision.

It's most likely to me that the Hammerfell thing was a trick by the Thalmor to alienate the Redguards and the Empire.
They never intended to stay in Hammerfell.
It would fit with their politics.

I was more referring to Alinor. These elves are just invading forces at this point. Surely there's a lot more home. I think most Altmer don't even care to leave their lands to begin with.

Dominion's strength post-Red-Ring was largely a confidence trick.

Still, the Medes bought it.

When you've watched your home burn and your people butchered...you'll do anything to stop it.

I disagree. I think that by throwing Hammerfell out of the Empire, the Emperor was making a calculated political move. If he had kept them in, he would have been obliged to aid the Dominion in their acquisition of that province. But by renouncing the province the Redguards, and the ex-legionary troops still there, could continue to fight the good fight without any interference from the Empire.

And I don't think there is any evidence that the Thalmor didn't intend to stay. After all, Hammerfell was their primary target in the war, not Cyrodiil. It just turned out that what was only supposed to be a diversionary attack was a lot more successful than the Dominion could have imagined.

For many people, "anything" sometimes means secretly crapping your pants, and trying to "talk" to the assailants. We have as many wars resolved this way as the other way. Stupid maybe sometimes, but it happens.

I'm not saying that Mede should fought on. What i'm saying is that he should of tried to negotiate a more fair treaty instead of the one he got right now. Surely the Domnion's military has been weakened allot since the Red Ring incident?

I can't follow you here.
If Mede would have kept Hammerfell in the Empire he would have had to help the Dominion to conquer it?
Hm?

If Mede was smart he would've (secretly) helped the Alik'r kick the Thalmor out after the Great War while negotiating an alliance with Hammerfell's independent government. Shoulda, coulda, woulda /shrugs.

I'm certain it was weakened considerably. But I'm not sure if we know what the Dominion's conditions were for bargaining. If the Medes offered to treaty, and the Dominion insisted on receiving nothing less than their prewar demands, then Mede didn't really have a choice. He could have fought on, or he could have come to the peace table. Fighting on may have brought him a better treaty, but the risks - as I described above - were really quite great. So in this particular case Mede wouldn't be at fault. The Thalmor, by not bargaining down, successfully bluffed Mede. And even if Mede knew this, he really didn't have much of a choice to do anything about it.

Now if Mede approached the Thalmor by offering them all of their prewar demands, then yes it would have been entirely his fault.



Sure. He was under obligation by political treaty to hand Hammerfell over to the Dominion. Since Hammerfell did not cooperate, they were essentially in open rebellion against the Empire. So the Empire would have been obliged to use force to subdue Hammerfell and turn it over to the Dominion. If they didn't, the Thalmor could accuse them of not only failing to fulfill their obligations, but of actually aiding and abetting the Redguard cause against the Thalmor. Instead, Mede ejected Hammerfell from the Empire completely, thereby removing any obligation by the Empire to turn the province over to the Dominion.

But it did seemed that Titus II did just came up to the Thalmor and just surrendered to them. There's no source saying the he debated with them over the terms of the Concordat. Maybe Mede has some plan to get Cyrodiil out of this mess, but right now it looks bleak. Especially that the Concordat is biting Cyrodill's ass with Ulfric and the Thalmor dictating Imperial affairs. It seems that this kind of peace is not worth it even if Cyrodiil was burned to the ground prior to Red Ring.

It's easy to criticize when you don't know the whole story, and none of us do know the whole story. Sure it was an ugly decision but I for one don't condemn Mede for it. The right decision isn't always the popular one.

I don't think he (or the previous Mede) had any big "plan". They took over an empire in a reconstruction stage after Oblivion.. things were already bleak, and people literally begged for a leader to set things more in order. The Medes sound like good adminstrative leaders, and decent strategists, but ultimately not fit to oversee everything (and then, not many would be). I think if it was up to them, they would've been happy with Cyrodil being left alone and them trying to get their lives in order. And I think that's all the current Mede wishes up until the present day. It's been 30 years since the war. If he had a bigger plan than just rebuilding, he hasn't enacted any of it. The White Gold Concordat is basically him saying "Just go the hell away already." I can't fault him for that.

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."