Hello. I've been watching many videos on Brink lately and I've noticed the players are hardly ever firing down the iron sight?

It my only be me, but I think running around hip-firing takes a lot away from the experience. Is this game going to be like Killzone 2 where aiming down the sight is not going to be more beneficial?

The game was played on PC by primarily PC players, on PC controls are precise and hip firing is not nessecary to aim and kill, but so far no developments have been made about the difference in spread between ADS and hip firing

SD is a PC company that before Brink, only made PC games. Their first game, Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, had no ironsights, and that game was supposed to be an expansion for RTCW, which also had no ironsights. A majority of SD's fanbase are PC players, who DO NOT like ironsights. Ironsights are unnecessary and slows down gameplay - The majority of their fans want fast, in your face firefights, not sneaky, hide in bushes, realism sim, whoever shoots first wins games - basically, a twitch shooter with objectives. The reason why you don't see a lot of ironsight usage in the videos, is that even many of the devs themselves, are "anti-ironsights." The original SD members started out modding on Quake 3, and were part of a well known clan. They are used to the fast paced gunplay, and this is probably why they don't use ironsights.

On the subject of Brink, this is what I know about ironsights.

1. They are not necessary to hit your target. Perhaps and longer ranges they may help, but you wont need to use them.
2. One of the reasons for implementing them, and this is what a dev said, was simply because a lot of players are used to using them - So basically, a reason they were added were to make players happy, not because you will need them to hit targets.
3. Recoil doesn't operate the same in Brink, as it does in other games. You can get off like 6-7 shots, before recoil even kicks in, another reason to make hip firing a viable option.


Here is a snippet from an irc chat, between 2 SD forum members, 1 of which (sponge) played Brink at QuakeCon:




Here are some Q&A's from and old interview with Richard Ham, addressing ironsights:

Q: In my eyes ironsight could be a nice extra, but just an extra! to shoot more accurate from longer distances, just like a sniper but then without zoom but let’s say a fov around 65-70.
A: I think that’s a fair way to look at it, that’s kind of how it’s playing right now in our internal playtests

Q: Players don’t want to play a game that is for everyone, i.e. with parts they like and parts they don’t like. They want to feel that you intended exactly THIS type of gameplay and that every other aspect of the game design had been decided in favor of your vision. Players do not want options that influence the whole gameplay. They want options that support ONE style of game.
A: I’m primarily trying to make a game that can appeal to the broadest base possible, and by and large, the wider audience has spoken and likes ironsighting. Arguably, they only like it because it’s what they’re used to, but it doesn’t change the fact that they do like it and it adds to the experience for them (one of the biggest thing it adds to the ‘feel’ of a game is enhancing the sense of “really firing a gun”, which is not to be discounted).

Q: Logically it only really makes sense to go for the ironsight, because otherwise (in other games previously anyway) spread seems to be too much of an issue, and you’ll find yourself dead if you dont. Going to try and address this in Brink?
A: On the spread issue. You can be very competitive without ironsights because we’re generally going for
huge distances. i’m hoping when i get back into he office in a few weeks to maybe post some screenshots of sample spreads on various guns…

Q: In fast paced games like RTCW/ET there is NO need for it, if it’s there it forces players to use it and slows down the game. Because usually with ironsights there are huge accuracy penalty for not using it.
A: Like I said earlier, there are guys in the office who hate iron sighting with a passion, and they do fine firing from the hip in our playtests. You’ve to remember, most of our engagement distances in the game are fairly close (as you’ll see if we ever release video

All I can say is, I hope they make the maps big and small enough where it's personal preference while it still should have SOME advantage to someone not using iron sights.. So from medium to far range should be where using iron sights have a somewhat noticeable advantage over hip firing. And definitely long range should have a bigger difference. This isn't an "entire" game breaker for me, but just a thought. Iron sights should be helpful to a point where it's useful to use. From the way the game looks and the designs, it shouldn't be too hard to get up close and personal to use hip firing.

I for one will be using iron sights, it feels more professional and just adds a lot more to the game. Otherwise it's just run in and spray and pray which no one ever likes.

But that's just the thing - much of the SD fanbase DO like it. And it also wouldn't really be spraying and praying, since the spread and recoil is pretty minimal. If it operates like I hope it does, I will have an advantage over practically everyone on xbox, since I am used to no ironsight games and playstyle, whereas a majority of the console community are used to games like MW2 and BC2 - which are ironsight intensive. So while you're trying to aim up that shot, I'll be circle strafing and dropping your teammates.

Also, the Light body type looses a lot of its advantage, if it is constantly slowing down using sights.

There will always be people who agree/disagree.
What my main concern is something that you pointed out, as a light, you can run around and "spray and pray" or do whatever you like because you're faster at running around. So hip-fire promotes a faster shooting style, which I'm fine with. But I think it would still be nice have Iron Sights with some degree of "advantage". I have noticed in some of the videos there are different kinds of scopes and such, which is fine for longer range. In my opinion, in close fire fights, hip-fire should have a higher chance of winning. My main concern is just distance, Iron Sights or any kind of sights should have more of an advantage with distance.

My only concern is someone can hip fire from a medium to long range distance and hit someone with almost the same accuracy as iron sights. That's the only issue I really have and which I hope wont come true.

Being a pc gamer, the majority of people i know either prefer slow paced gaming or like both. Sneaking around in bushes is very much what we like a lot of the time. Arma 2, operation flashpoint, battlefield series and so on. Pc gaming works for every kind of game, its not restricted to just a few genres. Me speaking personally, i really REALLY perfer aiming down the sights as its a lot more satisfying. Sim shooters are more popular on the pc anyway. Especially multiplayer ones.

[/rant]

Quake 3, UT, RTCW, ET, HL2 and TF2 (among others) would like a word with you...

I believe the point him and I are trying to make is.

There's a lot of popular games out there with iron sights and it seems to improve the experience. But with the way they are making it sound with iron sights is, it's there for kicks and giggles and hardly has an impact, barely for range. For a game that doesn't really even have sniper rifles, it would be nice to have iron sights have some kind of advantage over range. What does it hurt to make it a rather noticeable difference for ranges?

My opinion of the iron sites is they aren't needed but i still love using them. When im runnin and gunnin im not gonna be using them but when i feel the need to sneak around a corner or something of the sort i feel "safer" when i have the iron sites up and active.

If it works like it does in Borderlands I think that would be pretty close to perfect.

How does it work in Borderlands?

Oh, right, I guess I should explain for those who haven't played it. Basically, each gun has accuracy (duh), and the gun's accuracy determines the size of its crosshairs, as well as how much the bullets deviate when ADS'ing. When you hipfire, the bullets will stay within the crosshairs, meaning you can be pretty accurate without using your sights. However, when you shoot the crosshairs will gradually expand. They'll expand faster or slower, more or less, depending on the gun's recoil (I think). So the more recoil the gun has, the faster you'll lose hipfire accuracy. If you use the sights, however, the spread will be slightly reduced and you won't lose any accuracy from continuous fire, although the barrel will still rise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quxei5I533w

It's not the best example ever, but hopefully it'll do. :disguise:

yep i totally agree with you mad hatter i think borderlands had the best of both worlds out of all the games that are out of yet

LOL! as funny as i found that post i meant console vs pc. Tf2 owns...just sayin..

I just used it as an example because in Borderlands both hipfiring and using the sights are useful. You don't have to do one or the other; you can shoot whichever way you like and still be fairly accurate, as long as your gun is. I've actually started playing it again recently in preparation for the new DLC, and I've been popping off headshots like crazy both with and without using my sights.

Much better than MW2, where the bullets seem to fly out of the barrel at 90 degree angles unless you're ADS'ing.

I have to admit, being an avid shooter and in the military, I'm not a big fan of hip-firing at all.... AT ALL. I can completely understand it working at close ranges, 2-3ft close... lol..... but you seriously can't just run around pointing you're weapon at someone without aiming and expect to hit them accurately. Yes I know there are people that can do it fairly well at 20ish yrds, but they have spent their ENTIRE lives honing that skill. Even experienced personnel will still use their weapon sights because it ensures you are being accurate.... I would pay you money if you could find a guy in Delta that fired form the hip while clearing buildings.

I know BRINK isn't looking to be a sim or anything, but there is seriously a limit to ridiculousness. We all love fast paced gaming, but when you aren't aiming, you are literally just pointing you're weapon in a direction and firing. If you want to pray and spray, have the same effects of praying and spraying. I'm tired of games that don't acknowledge the sights of a weapon (iron or optic) because the developers aren't TALENTED enough to use them quickly and continue doing what they are doing. It's a friggin skill.... if you play COD, BFBC, or any number of shooters that depend on using you're sights for accuracy and you svck at them.... the solution is not to whine and cry about the unfairness of it, the solution is to keep practicing and getting better.

I know, some of you just don't possess the hand-eye coordination to actually do such a thing, but that's why they invented games like WOW.... go have fun with those, pretend you have the ultimate 100m accuracy hip firing you're weapon there..... heck, pretend you're an elf or something.... I really don't care, I'm just tired of shooters that don't want to admit that they are a FRIGGIN SHOOTER!!!!!

You are holding a rifle/shotgun/pistol.... it should be a REQUIREMENT, no matter how "fun/cartoony/enjoyable" a game is meant to be, that ALL people developing the game should fire AT MINIMUM 100 rounds through each category of weapon (rifle, shotgun, pistol, and machine gun)..... that way they can actually understand what they are trying to put in their game. If you want to pretend that you have completely eliminated recoil, go for it, it's possible, 30rd burst staying completely on target would be awesome. If you want to say armor has increased and advanced to the point that taking 30rds to the chest is now possible, feel free....... but without using some type of sight, shooting past a 10yrd radius is EXTREMELY innaccurate...... At LEAST HALO can pull it off because the guy has a friggin Mech suit on that could plausibly have simulated crosshairs on his visor.



sorry for that.... just can't stand when no talent people think they are special because they don't like ironsights.... and yes, i am talking to you developers..... grow up and learn how to play with a friggin gun. You ARE making a game with guns..... they don't have to be realistic.... they don't have to have realistic bullet tragectories..... but for the sake of all that is holy, no matter how special you are, you can't fire from the hip accurately. I would HAPPILY get in a gunfight with anyone that thought so.... and even those "crack-shot" experts.... I would take them on at 100m anyday..... I would love to see them try that crap from a realistic fighting distance.

You just used a phrase miley cyrus used in song, therefore when you talk from now on, all i here is screeching.

How do i know this? i watch hannah montana every night and im [censored] proud of it.

[censored] [censoring] [censored] ruined that phrase.

Personally, I like having ironsights as an option to improve accuracy. However, I'd still like to be able to hip fire.

In most pre COD shooting games (as far as I know), you didn't use ironsights, you used sniper scopes or nothing.

Now, everyone wants ironsights. Personally, I think Borderlands got it right from what has been said.


Something for devs to remember though...

In the game Urban Terror (UrT), you can use a scope or hip fire. Hip fire, however, is about as accurate as ironsight fire would be. So, you can snipe someone in the head with your PSG from range, or just put three rounds into their skull from a smaller range. "Hip firing" is accurate enough in it to still snipe people at mid range.

I'd like to be able to use ironsights to take down enemies from a long range, but I'd like "hip firing" to still be an option.

And remember, anyone with even the vaguest military training would probably know not to shoot from the hip, so Gordon Freeman and Master Chief would probably be aiming down the sights all the time if it wasn't a game. They wouldn't actually be firing from their actual hip.

Same for Counter-Strike, you aren't "aiming" down the sights at all, instead you are given crosshairs in the center of the screen that expand when shooting. The reason people stopped doing that though was because game designers did a bit of subject matter research (shot the weapons they were putting in their games) and realized that if done properly, the bullet can be placed in the same place, or very close vicinity to the same place almost every time. They realized that their large circles were not very accurate to real life at all, and that the best way to represent a real weapon was to actually use weapon sights. Then the player was given the distinction of when they were aiming (going for accuracy) and when they weren't (going for mobility).

As such, I would highly appreciate if BRINK realized why so many games have gone this route.... because it adds another element to gameplay. Yes you can shoot from the hip or from a "ready position" without actually looking down the sights of your weapon and have somewhat accurate fire, but you will be able to move much better and faster. Once you look down those sights though, you're bullets are on target every time (unless you don't know how to properly line up you're sights....or you haven't zeroed them, but that's a whole 'nother matter entirely) but you are sacrificing mobility and speed for your increased accuracy.

This prevents people from being able to jump around a map like a monkey and still be popping off headshots left and right. If firing from the hip brought up a fairly large circle for bullets to randomely go in that wasn't very affective past 15ft, I would be extremely satisfied with it. I know I would be running for cover every now and then fire from my hip just trying to keep people from firing directly at me..... but when I see someone else out in the open, running for cover, I would rather not have their fire be just as accurate as mine when I am stationary and aiming. If that's the case, you mind as well give people the ability to fly, why not teleport too.... It's not like we're trying to have any bit of realism AT ALL..... there's got to be a limit.... you can only immerse yourself in the world of the game so much if the game designers don't understand or see those lines, then that is how a game fails.

Anyways, that's just my opinion... essentially it means nothing unless there are many that agree with me. I have no clue if there are or not, I am just stating it. If you don't like it, then you don't like it. Welcome to freedom of choice :celebration: :foodndrink: :twirl:

TheRealAzrael, I understand where your coming from, but why would there be a limit on ridiculousness. A game is about fun, and since fun is so subjective the devs can only rely on what they find fun. You can say that they are just unskilled, but it is them making the game and they will make the game in their image of the game which is most fun. There are lots unrealistic aspects of brink, I'm sure no military personnel would wall hop across a gap while carrying an assault rifle.

I would agree with the borderlands assessment but I think you definitely need to have a decent advantage when you ADS. If you don't then there is no point in putting it ingame and if that was the case I probably wouldn't get the game I HATE CS for that and it takes a lot out of TF2 for me too but that is just me. Anyway yes Borderlands did it perfect so you could do either reasonably effectively and they were both useful in different situations

But he does have a point there, I'd like to see aiming down the sights and burst firing have a greater effect than Hip firing and spraying at Medium - Long Distances.
It's just nice to see some kind of Risk(slower movement speed)/Reward(higher Accuracy) ingame.

I totally agree with TheRealAzrael, from what i interpret from his long speech is that hip should have its benefits, but people arent running around firing of the hip and getting headshots all the time, but the game shouldnt have ironsgihst all the time because that makes the game run at a slower pace, i want a mixture of the two so that both are effective in certain circumstances.

Killzone was close to what i wanted but hipfire too accurate, and i had this nice holographic scope i could look down but i didnt. I find that game, because hipfiring means you can look around while doing it, and also run to an objective at the same time as shooting. SD will make it balanced, so dont worry.

PS All the videos ive seen the demonstrator is ADS all the time, am i missing a video :unsure:

Hang on, isn't that one of the central ideas of Brink? :shrug:


Ok, I get what you mean. But I still want to HS from "hip firing".