*Listens to Tool* Nope sorry.

No I still disagree, Talent cannot be measured, therefore you cannot say she has undisputed talent.

I thought we agreed we werent to reveal our agents to the pawns?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiuD6i8dN1g

:D

So you deny that Salvador Dali, Pablo Picasso, Vincent Van Gogh, Georgia O'Keefe, Frida Kahlo, etc, hell, Leonardo D. even, had talent? I guess it's all up to your "opinion"?

She is no worse than anyone else you hear on the radio, but I hate pop-music (not all, but the crap you hear on the radio every 20 minutes).

So wait? Da Vinci, probably the most popular artist ever had no skill? or talent? The man was a genius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SagYW3-KNyc

She was 16 or 18..

Shes knows how the industry works, shes taken a grasp of it and shes put out hit after hit by coming back more provocative and subjective each time. Why do we keep listening? Why doesn't she make more songs like the amazingly composed one in that video? Because nobody cares for it.

that's where she got the name from...long before she was famous she was recording some song or w/e and someone told her it was "so [radio]Gaga" so she decided to stick with the name.

I love her...I love dance in the dark <3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkznLWFRbfo its going to be her new single...

So, what does tool sing about.

I do agree that talent is subjective. I don't think she has talent. It has already been said but I'll say it again, if she hadn't sold out she would be a nobody and people would consider her a talentless hack

Pretty much, I think they were good painters, but that is my oppinion, that dosent change any facts, and saying they were talented = fact. So yeah, if everyone has the oppinion something is good it dosent mean it is.

@Wyatt Human nature mostly, then some songs go into religion, a few have talked about drugs e.g sobre is about a friend of the band who somehow worked better when drunk or something like that. Lateralus basically says think outside the box, stinkfist is seen in different ways, some see it about addiction, others desensitization, the song the pot is about hypocrisy and kangeroo courts. So Tool sings about many things.

@Mikedzines yep, number of fans dosent show talent, it just shows the number of people who think that style is good.

i think she has talent she can sing, (although she can't dress) i don't personally like her music though, but i wouldn't go as far as saying she doesn't have any talent

So..you admit it's your liking and opinion of that talent, not the fact that they do have talent?
You can't just selectively pick which people in this world have "talent", some people do, and some don't. Hell, all people have at least one talent. It's just your opinion of that talent that you make your "opinion" in general.

Lol Frida Kahlo didn't had talent she had a mustache just like susan boyle...if neither of them had one they wouldn't have become famous...

Tool complain plenty about what they lack and they definitely talk about drug use. So yeah, they do fall into that category.


And why is it so hard to admit she can play the piano? Her being talented at playing an instrument is irrespective of you liking what she plays. I don't doubt for one second that tool aren't talented, doesn't mean I love their music. Same goes for near enough every other "artist" out there.

I love this song though!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zO4pX9LtHg&playnext=1&videos=AdsIqJj-PK0

Tool definitely does fits into that category. How would I know? "But Betrayer, you only like fake music like lil wayne and lady gaga bro!".
Yeah, I do like Lil Wayne and Lady Gaga, but I also have every single album Tool has ever came out with, including special editions with live performances, not to mention having seen APC live.
So lets please not start that game.

Im not picking who has talent, I am saying that there is no one who has undisputable talent. Its all oppinions.

@Expresate, I see where others are coming from, but to me you cant say there is talent as it cannot be measured, especially in music, if you like an artist fine, but thats your oppinions, just because one artist has alot of people with the oppinon they are good musicians dosent mean they are.

This whole debate about talent = oppinions, I dont think talent can be measured, defined and its not definate/undisputable, you guys think otherwise.

@Lord Elendiir if you think hey are talented fine, but thats your oppinion, you cant say they are talented as a fact though, imo they are, in others they are not, like I said all oppinions.

TIMN, I've argued with all sorts of people over the difference of fact and opinion and the way I see talent means, to me, that it's not up to opinion. You either have talent in a certain area, or you don't. I, personally, believe that it's the way those people use their talent that is open to opinion.

Example:
A very talented musical mind has the option of becoming a classical composer or a hard rock star. He goes classical, and hard rock fans who can't stand that genre do not like him at all. However, had he have gone hard rock, they would probably be fans. See what I'm saying?

fixed

I agree.

Though a lot of people branded as having talent really don't,I think talent is an over-used word.

Talent=an inherently above average ability at something,just because you practice some and become above someone who has never picked up the instrument you're playing or whatever else it may be you're doing doesn't mean you really have talent in the instrument,it just means you have practice.

I like her music enough that I downloaded some of her songs from iTunes recently, and I have enjoyed watching the some of the music videos she has been in so far. A lot of it seems to be brainless and shallow on the surface, but it is interesting to see, via some more critical (and/or paranoidly hysterical) sources*, how many unusual references and possibly messages she can slip into a single without ruining its marketability. It seemed odd to me at first how someone could attack the excesses of popular culture while simultaneously profiting well from it, but I suppose most people buying her records won't be reading between the lines and if they do get the message, won't be changing their consumption habits anyway. As for her apparently eccentric dress and behavior- on and off stage, it seems-, of course there's no better way to satirize fashion and celebrity crazes than to reproduce them on a greater and sillier scale, although it could also mean becoming the very thing you originally intend to lampoon (as I believe is the case here). Baudrillard and Debord would likely agree, I imagine.

*http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=1676

Eh, she's more tolerable than Ke-dollar sign-ha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP6XpLQM2Cs

The only problem was the place I worked when Poker Face came out played a radio station that played that song at least once an hour... so that song sort of lost its "fun" after a few shifts. My GF thought it was about poker

That doesn't mean he has talent. He could be a horrible composer. Talent is very subjective. I think an artist who throws paint at a canvas and calls it art is a talentless hack. Others will call it beautiful and pay hundreds for it calling the man a gifted artist.

Pretty much exactly what I've been trying to argue for the last half hour. Having talent is not up to opinion, it's what you do with that talent that is up to opinion.
Does Daney Carey, the drummer for Tool, not have "talent" when he plays the opening to Ticks and Leeches? I guess not. Does Jeff Lynn not have "talent" when he produces/mixes/writes albums for some of the biggest names in the music industry over the last 20 years? I reckon he doesn't.
They have talent. It's just your opinion about what they've done with that talent that is open to being opinionated.
Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Cid-tgW2Lw video, a drum cover by a man with some pretty amazing drum skills.
Do you like rock music? Do you like Tool? Do you like the drums? All of that is irrelevant to one fact: the man has talent. If you say he doesn't, regardless of your answers for the previous 3 questions, you are wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrO4YZeyl0I#t=2m26s

At least, I wish that that is what she sings there. It's not of course, but when I put it like this it sure sounds like it, doesn't it?

I'm terrible at examples. I like Wind's half-arsed definition of talent.

Edit:

Actually, I can argue on your example. People call him "talented" because they like what he did with it. Is he really talented? Does he have a higher understanding of the concept of art, and the way the human brain reacts to it? No. He threw a bucket of paint at a canvas and hoped for the best. He doesn't have talent. However, the people who are looking at the painting may not realize this, and just find that it does indeed appeal to them. In that case he's not talented, he's just lucky.