The Tao of Sithis

Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:56 am

Would I be obvious if I said that the :remain silent: response option in both the games that feature the brotherhood as a joinable faction mirrors, reflects, embodies Sithis?

My word I did enjoy the Skyrim questline.
To.. oh well.. spoilers.

To Wraith-Magnus: Sithis is the void. It is the ultimate: remain silent.
It is so far away from no that yes seems the same as no.
For to have a negative, there must be a positive to deny it.

I do not think it is a leap of the mind that some revere this ultimate denial, as much as it is a leap of the mind to think that the Sun is the source of all life and at the shortest day, whoever finds a bean in his stew has seen his last birthday.


I don't know if that's the obvious answer to the Dark Brotherhood questions... in Oblivion, at least (haven't done the Skyrim DB yet), it really makes no difference if you choose to say that you simply kill because you enjoy killing, or if you choose to say that you kill in service of Sithis, or if you choose to just stay silent. The last two, ultimately, don't even offer up explanations, while the first is the real player reason, aside from just wanting to see the plotline to its end. Well, OK, I guess some people could honestly be nihilistic enough that they might want to kill for the service of a name put onto nothing.

"Time can only exist in the balance between Anuriel's timeless instantaneousness that the Dwemer re-intigrated themselves into, and the entropic infinite insubstantiability of Sithis. " Planck?

I am not quoting anyone. If my words resemble anyone else's, it is by pure accident, I assure you.

Rather, it is as I type these posts out that I struggle to come to grips with the concept, myself. Hence, how I have to change the terms by which I draw metaphors. I tend to anolyze a subject best through discourse, which is ultimately what a lore forum should be about, isn't it?

Anyway, when I at first typed that, I thought that Anuiel would be the one instant with one time, with the concept of infinite possibilities that ultimately invalidate one another so as to create nothingness out of all of them would be Sithis... however, maybe I was backwards in my thought?

The inverse would be that the closer one moves to Anuiel, the more time diverges, (which would seem to more suitably fit how use of the Numidium works) to the point where, at pure Anuiel, you hit every possible divergent reality co-existing without cause and effect, merely every imaginary state of being at once with no change in the existence of one, but rather, only the ability to shift from one unchanging frozen reality to another, with at its opposite is the zero possibility of pure nothingness.

In order for time to exist in a state where we could imagine it, then, with a notion of a single line of cause-and-effect, the infinite must be eradicated through Sithis's interference to be brought down to one and exactly one reality.

Dragon Breaking would then be the shift back towards Anuiel, with a multitude of existences conflicting beyond the reach of rational time because they have independent time-existences.
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CSar L
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:47 pm


text


(Anu + Padomay) / Sithis = Nirn?

If there is a 'yes' that can be gotten back upon, as the Dwemer desired, is there a 'no' that can be hastened?

If I understand what you are saying then the singular bead between the is and the is-not that is the eternal now is the denial by Sithis of all the paths that lead to Padomay, except for this only one.
Grim Reaper indeed.
But did Vivec not pick and pluck and choose from all the threads the one he would dance upon?

Here one touches on the concept of free will.
Is there really only one thread or is the very reason a Bigger Spirit might 'covet our soul' the fact that we can colour the weave between Anu and Padomay?
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Mylizards Dot com
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:55 am

I always thought the Dark Brotherhood didn't understand Sithis. Does Sithis even acknowledge their existence? Is Sithis sentient?

No, Sithis is not sentient.

The Dark Brotherhood understand one aspect of Sithis, which is limit as it's seen in death.
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Victoria Vasileva
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:08 am

(Anu + Padomay) / Sithis = Nirn?


There is a disconnect here...

It is my understanding of the lore that Padomay and Sithis are the same being, but viewed through the context of different cultures.
From the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Padomay: Padomay (sometimes called Sithis) is the quintessential form of change. One of the two primal forces, the other being Anu.

The difference in cultural viewpoints is that the ancient elves (and the Thalmor) refer to Anuiel as pure good and Sithis as pure evil, where Sithis is a corruption that prevents them from being in the Anuiel state of non-cause-effectness. Existence, and rational time, as it contains the traces of Sithis, is therefore evil.

The human view, however, is something more akin to ancient creation myths, where a father Anu and a mother Padomay physically conceived the gods between themselves. They view both as necessary for creation and existence, which is good.

Are you, perhaps, thinking of Lorkhan/Shor? That's the part that starts the making of Nirn.
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:05 am

There is a disconnect here...

It is my understanding of the lore that Padomay and Sithis are the same being, but viewed through the context of different cultures.
From the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Padomay: Padomay (sometimes called Sithis) is the quintessential form of change. One of the two primal forces, the other being Anu.

The difference in cultural viewpoints is that the ancient elves (and the Thalmor) refer to Anuiel as pure good and Sithis as pure evil, where Sithis is a corruption that prevents them from being in the Anuiel state of non-cause-effectness. Existence, and rational time, as it contains the traces of Sithis, is therefore evil.

The human view, however, is something more akin to ancient creation myths, where a father Anu and a mother Padomay physically conceived the gods between themselves. They view both as necessary for creation and existence, which is good.

Are you, perhaps, thinking of Lorkhan/Shor? That's the part that starts the making of Nirn.


I see.
No, I was thinking of something else entirely.

Of Anu and Padomay on the one hand, and Sithis on the other.
It had honestly not occured to me to see Sithis and Padomay as the same.
I had reasoned that on one side there was the is and the is-not, and on the other the void.
Or, the balance of Anu and Padomay being swallowed by Sithis.

Interesting :)
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Hearts
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:31 pm

Of Anu and Padomay on the one hand, and Sithis on the other.
It had honestly not occured to me to see Sithis and Padomay as the same.
I had reasoned that on one side there was the is and the is not, and on the other the void.
Or, the balance of Anu and Padomay being swallowed by Sithis.

Throughout the metaphysics Sithis is drawn in line with Padomay, just as Anuiel is with Anu.

And still, Sithis is limit.
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Charlie Ramsden
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:18 am

http://zentocoach.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/tao-6-the-void/

this sorta has the same relationships that people keep bringing up with the whole padomay/sithis anuiel/anu thing

and thats why the sithis being the void of tao thing kinda caught my eye

the void that all things come from and all things return

the space in between

I think the DB kills for sithis because they are returning others to the void to be remade in sithis image (nothingness/everything/CHIM?)
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Nauty
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:00 pm

http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=26090 I found what I got my void reference to sithis from :D
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Big Homie
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:00 am

If you are looking for a relationship between Padomay and Sithis or Anu and Anuiel, you're approaching this from the wrong angle. They literally are the same being, they just have different names in different languages. Sithis is the elven word for Padomay in the human tongue. Anu and Anuiel are just the human and elven way of talking about the same thing.

The differences between cultures, however, is in how most people see the interplay.

Humans and most (read: non-thalmor) elves see the balance of Anu and Padomay as integral for all of existence to have any meaning.

It's only a few radical cultists like the Thalmor or Dwemer who want to do away with Sithis, and live entirely in the Anuiel. (Even most elves have moved away from their ancient philosophic roots, and adopted a more "human" outlook on existence.)

=============

The Dark Brotherhood kill for Sithis because they don't really entirely understand what Sithis really is.

It's simply a force - it's like praying to the ocean for the tides to keep coming in or praying to the sun to keep rising. It's not sentient, it's not going to hear you, and it would do everything it was going to do, anyway.

The Night Mother is the real motive force of the Dark Brotherhood, and she is essentially an insane messianic cult leader. She kills simply because she enjoys killing, she has a lust for death and suffering and destruction, and justifies her worldview through the rationalization that she is serving some higher cosmic power that lacks the sentience to contradict her.

Sithis wants nothing (and I mean that in the "has no desires" sense, not in the wants there to be nothing left sense), Sithis just is. Sithis is what is when nothing else is. That is why Sithis is the Is-Not, because Sithis is just the void left over when everything else is gone. Sithis is, basically, the vacuum once even the time and space that contained that vacuum itself have dissolved.

Praying to nothing is pointless, but nothing will never contradict you, and so, for an insane death cult leader who wants to utterly control every aspect of the lives of her insane death cultists, it's the perfect "god" to serve.
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The Time Car
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:06 pm

It is my understanding of the lore that Padomay and Sithis are the same being, but viewed through the context of different cultures.

I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Some cultures only ignore certain gradients of reality, but both the Yoku and the Altmer recognize the following formula:

IS / IS NOT
Order / Chaos
Time-due / Space-dude

Anuiel is the soul of Anu. Sithis is the soul of Padomay. That doesn't make Anuiel the same as Anu.

Now, there's a whole lot of confusion here because of the names, and some cultures ignoring certain levels of the divine scheme. In Cyrodiil for example, they call IS NOT Sithis (whereas the Altmer call chaos Sithis), and they gloss over chaos. That doesn't actually make them the same thing. Think of all the loanwords in English that have changed meaning compared to the foreign word.
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naomi
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:30 pm


The Dark Brotherhood kill for Sithis because they don't really entirely understand what Sithis really is.

It's simply a force - it's like praying to the ocean for the tides to keep coming in or praying to the sun to keep rising. It's not sentient, it's not going to hear you, and it would do everything it was going to do, anyway.


But what if it's not that simple? From the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-monomyth [emphasis mine]

    All Tamrielic religions begin the same. Man or mer, things begin with the dualism of Anu and His Other. These twin forces go by many names: Anu-Padomay, Anuiel-Sithis, Ak-El, Satak-Akel, Is-Is Not. Anuiel is the Everlasting Ineffable Light, Sithis is the Corrupting Inexpressible Action. In the middle is the Gray Maybe ('Nirn' in the Ehlnofex).

    In most cultures, Anuiel is honored for his part of the interplay that creates the world, but Sithis is held in highest esteem because he's the one that causes the reaction. Sithis is thus the Original Creator, an entity who intrinsically causes change without design. Even the hist acknowledge this being.

    Anuiel is also perceived of as Order, opposed to the Sithis-Chaos. Perhaps it is easier for mortals to envision change than perfect stasis, for often Anuiel is relegated to the mythic background of Sithis' fancies. In Yokudan folk-tales, which are among the most vivid in the world, Satak is only referred to a handful of times, as "the Hum"; he is a force so prevalent as to be not really there at all.

    In any case, from these two beings spring the et'Ada, or Original Spirits. To humans these et'Ada are the Gods and Demons; to the Aldmer, the Aedra/Daedra, or the 'Ancestors'. All of the Tamrielic pantheons fill their rosters from these et'Ada, though divine membership often differs from culture to culture. Like Anu and Padomay, though, every one of these pantheons contains the archetypes of the Dragon God and the Missing God.

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Chad Holloway
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:05 pm

But what if it's not that simple. From the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-monomyth


I do not believe this is contradictory to what I have claimed.

The Monomyth simply anthropomorphizes an unthinking, unfeeling force because it is a world origin myth, and an unthinking, unfeeling force is difficult to relate to, and as such, is anthropomorphized to fit into the epic myths of the various race's creation stories.

It's like how gravity and the electromagnetic forces are two of the basic forces of physics on the scale that humans can actually see and interact with. Gravity is a weak attractive force, and Electromagnetism is an attractive/repulsive force (typically repulsive) that is responsible for the entire notion that things are solid, and only one solid object can occupy the same space at the same time.

You can call electromagnetism the "Original Creator" of the notion of being solid, but that doesn't mean that it is an actual thinking being. It's still just a force.

Look again at the part that you didn't highlight:
Anuiel is also perceived of as Order, opposed to the Sithis-Chaos. Perhaps it is easier for mortals to envision change than perfect stasis, for often Anuiel is relegated to the mythic background of Sithis' fancies. In Yokudan folk-tales, which are among the most vivid in the world, Satak is only referred to a handful of times, as "the Hum"; he is a force so prevalent as to be not really there at all.

Especially the part about Satak (Satakal), which is the Yokudan take on the whole thing - Anu and Padomay are actually the same exact thing in their myth, and are simply called "the Hum", because it is simply the interplay of natural forces. There is no spirit, no defining humanoid will or desire, there simply is an ever-present force, much like how Gravity and Electromagnetism are not to be talked to or prayed to, they simply are how the universe works.

The thing is, a completely unthinking, unfeeling universe is difficult for many peoples to deal with, so, again, they anthropomorphize it, and even then, only anthropomorphize the "chaos" part of it, because they can't really understand a being of not-changing, which makes it even harder to anthropomorphize than Old Man Gravity, always pulling things back to land because he's jealous of those damn stars.
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:39 pm

I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Some cultures only ignore certain gradients of reality, but both the Yoku and the Altmer recognize the following formula:

IS / IS NOT
Order / Chaos
Time-due / Space-dude

Anuiel is the soul of Anu. Sithis is the soul of Padomay. That doesn't make Anuiel the same as Anu.

Now, there's a whole lot of confusion here because of the names, and some cultures ignoring certain levels of the divine scheme. In Cyrodiil for example, they call IS NOT Sithis (whereas the Altmer call chaos Sithis), and they gloss over chaos. That doesn't actually make them the same thing. Think of all the loanwords in English that have changed meaning compared to the foreign word.


To go back to that Monomyth,
All Tamrielic religions begin the same. Man or mer, things begin with the dualism of Anu and His Other. These twin forces go by many names: Anu-Padomay, Anuiel-Sithis, Ak-El, Satak-Akel, Is-Is Not. Anuiel is the Everlasting Ineffable Light, Sithis is the Corrupting Inexpressible Action. In the middle is the Gray Maybe ('Nirn' in the Ehlnofex).

This pretty much says that these are just different names for the same thing. The difference is not in the names used, but the cultural lenses through which they are viewed.
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Anna Beattie
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:03 pm

I do not believe this is contradictory to what I have claimed.

And I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out that that source argues both: It claims Sithis is a force and an entity/being. It's not just those 'nutty' Dark Brotherhood folks who anthropomorphize Sithis. Whoever wrote the Monomyth suggests the same and apparently the hist does as well.
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Shannon Marie Jones
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:14 pm

To go back to that Monomyth,
All Tamrielic religions begin the same. Man or mer, things begin with the dualism of Anu and His Other. These twin forces go by many names: Anu-Padomay, Anuiel-Sithis, Ak-El, Satak-Akel, Is-Is Not. Anuiel is the Everlasting Ineffable Light, Sithis is the Corrupting Inexpressible Action. In the middle is the Gray Maybe ('Nirn' in the Ehlnofex).

This pretty much says that these are just different names for the same thing. The difference is not in the names used, but the cultural lenses through which they are viewed.

I think different cultures start at different points, but always start with twin forces, because there are three sets of twin opposites. How do you explain the Altmeri and Yokudan inclusion of further subgradients?
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Portions
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:02 am

And I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out that that source argues both: It claims Sithis is a force and an entity/being. It's not just those 'nutty' Dark Brotherhood folks who anthropomorphize Sithis. Whoever wrote the Monomyth suggests the same and apparently the hist does as well.


Yes, but they don't take murder as a religious sacrament in worship of that force, either.

I think different cultures start at different points, but always start with twin forces, because there are three sets of twin opposites. How do you explain the Altmeri and Yokudan inclusion of further subgradients?


I'm not sure where you are going with this... I can create an infinite set of twin opposing opposite forces.

hot - cold
day - night
people who like chocolate - people who like vanilla

There are multiple ways in which you can describe the interplay of these opposites, and having "Is" opposed to "Is-Not" is just another way of talking about "All possible worlds at once" opposed to "Nothing at all", which can be described as well as "Stasis" versus "Entropy", which can be described as "Order" versus "Chaos".

You can divide these forces into different metaphors if you so choose. It depends upon your understanding of what terms like "Stasis" mean.
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Brandi Norton
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:45 pm

i don't see why it has to be so Aristotelian, seeing as Taoism is Non-Aristotelian, and maybe that's why sithis strikes me as Taoist because the sithis concept seems to be Non-Aristotelian
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:03 pm

i don't see why it has to be so Aristotelian, seeing as Taoism is Non-Aristotelian, and maybe that's why sithis strikes me as Taoist because the sithis concept seems to be Non-Aristotelian


I'm sorry if I dip into Western Philosophy, but the basic blunt truth of the matter is that I don't really fully understand Taoist thought. The words of Tao are uncomfortable and unwieldy on my fingertips, and so if I am to use something as a metaphor to better my understanding of the subject, it must be something with which I am already familiar.

With that said, I can see a clear line of parallel through pre-Aristotlian thought. I posted much of this in response to another thread, but I can change a few things, and make the connection to how this relates to the view of Anuiel and Sithis quite well...

To recap (spoilered for length):
Spoiler
The way I understand this is through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms.

The theory of forms is an old and completely discredited derivation of an ancient sophistry that nevertheless had its ripples felt in every corner of Western philosophy.

It is related to Gnosticism, because it is basically the foundation upon which Gnosticism had to be built, but it is older than Gnosticism itself.

======

To start with, we have to look at one of the most ancient of philosophical [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracletus]statements[/url] that still remains with us - that the universe changes. This isn't much of a statement, I know, but all things have to start small. The statement of this idea was that nothing in the world was eternal, that everything was in flux.

The metaphor was that of a river - the river may appear to be the same river in the same place, but in actuality, the river is nothing more than a collection of water drops, and those water drops are moving away from you. If you were to walk into the river today, it would not be the river you would have stood in yesterday, for the water in it yesterday has all long since gone by, and "river" is just a name we give for a pattern of water because we cannot perceive the every drop of water.

By extension, the you of today is not the you of yesterday, much less the you of 10 years ago. In that time, you have changed. You have changed for in ten years, you have eaten, you have drunk, you have bleed, you have grown, but these are only the physical things, you have also learned and you have grown as a mind. The You you are now will not be in the future. You will forget. The pride and pain of the now-you will be gone, lost to the will-be-you who cannot recall. Then, you will die.

It was the furthest extension of this that most terrified people, however, for it claimed that existence was subjective. That is, because we are trapped in the prison of our own minds and our own mindset, capable of seeing only the shadows of the world through the peep-holes of our five senses, and the play-acting of our own imagination, internal dialogue of reason, and memory, our world is warped both through the deficiencies of our senses, the shortcomings of our imagination, the fallacies of our logic, but worst of all, the fading and the distortion of our memory. Everything we are and everything we sense will be lost to us through the ravages of time.

This is the philosophy of Change.

======

Against this, then, rose the great sophistry by those who rejected this horrifying realization. They made their case through metaphor, as well. It is called "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes", and it goes like this:
Achilles is in a race with a tortoise. Achilles is, of course, a most athletic man, and can easily outrun a tortoise, but the tortoise has a head-start, being several meters ahead of Achilles at the start of this race. As such, Achilles must run to catch up to where the tortoise is. However, when Achilles gets there, the tortoise will have moved. So, Achilles must run some more to reach the point where the tortoise now is. However, when he gets there, the tortoise has moved some more. This repeats forever, and therefore, no change has actually taken place - the tortoise will forever be in the lead.

This was, for some reason, impossible for ancient philosophers to properly refute, causing them to believe it.

This claim was that there was no time because there was no change.

I will refute it now:
In that metaphor, what was actually happening is something you could graph out with basic algebra - draw two lines on an X/Y graph of different slopes, and somewhere down the line, they will intersect. In order to achieve the sophistry they achieved, however, they talked about how each interval of reaching the point where the tortoise is now would require time, but by the time that Achilles got there, the tortoise would have moved. However, this interval of time would grow shorter, because movement is distance over time. The period of time between when Achilles would finally overtake the tortoise, then, would be growing infinitely shorter until it infinitely approached the limit of zero.

In other words, they were claiming that there was no time because there was no change if we assume there is no time.

To shorten this even further, the claim is: "If there is no time, then there is no time."

This is a tautological, and hence meaningless claim.

However, this claim that time was a falsehood was used as a way to try to destroy all of the other claims of the philosophy of change.

To quote Wikipedia on this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides divided up reality into two things based upon this "time does not exist" idea:
In "the way of truth" (a part of the poem), he explains how reality (coined as "what-is") is one, change is impossible, and existence is timeless, uniform, necessary, and unchanging. In "the way of opinion," he explains the world of appearances, in which one's sensory faculties lead to conceptions which are false and deceitful.

Or, in other words, there is a perfect theoretical world without time, and then there is the corruption of that perfect that exists only because you have senses and a perception of time's existence.

On top of this was added the theory of "recollection", that we, in fact, do not learn. We are born with all knowledge, we just don't remember having it. Learning is, in fact, just remembering something we always knew, because we could not perceive we always knew it because of that awful corrupting time perception.

Because it started from a false assumption, however, everything from this school of thought is total bunk, and cannot possibly be, at least, as long as Time exists, as the entirety of the philosophy is predicated upon time not existing.

Because it can only exist as long as there is no time, it is the philosophy of Stasis.

======

Plato, then, came about to try to weave these two diametric opposites into a synthesis. This synthesis would, of course, http://www.othieves.com/art_plato.html, because Zeno's Paradoxes were founded upon a fallacy, but nevertheless, Plato became the bedrock of Western Philosophy because between him and Aristotle (who basically was a student of his work), he introduced not just the notion of souls and the split between mortal and divine that Christianity adopted, but basically was declared THE way in which the world worked by the Roman Catholic church in such a way that it was responsible for stunting philosophical and scientific discovery until the time of the Protestant Reformation and Galileo completely broke science off from philosophy.

His synthesis went like this:
There was such a thing called the "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_forms". This was done through the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ.

Basically, he claimed that there was change, and there was a physical world, and there was time, but that they were all "corruptions" of the true Forms.

Forms are the perfect, eternal archetypes upon which all physical reality was created as mere corrupt distortions of the shadows of the true Forms. So all chairs, for example, are derived from the One Perfect Chair. All varieties of chairs are just different corruptions of the One Perfect Chair's perfect chairness. Physical chairs are bound by time and break because they are corrupt, but the One Perfect Chair is eternal and unchanging.

Again, Plato held up the Theory of Recollection - we have a perfect, eternal soul, but that is corrupted by our physicalness and having a body and having wants and desires and emotions and pleasure and individualism and freedom.

=========

So, then, we come to Gnosticism.

Gnostics believed that they were once a part of an eternal perfect realm of immortal souls that existed without physicality or time. Then, a jealous under-god of the True God called The Demiurge created physical reality behind the True God's back. However, the Demiurge was imperfect, and what the Demiurge created was corrupted by imperfection, and so too were the perfect immortal souls that were caught up in the Demiurge's creation.

Physical reality, then, is a prison to Gnostics, and all life and all physical reality is made of pure corruption upon their perfect eternal selves. The overarching goal of Gnosticism is to abandon all flesh and live entirely for re-connecting with this perfect eternal divine through the act of denial of the flesh. (It's worth pointing out that they were entirely against having children, because life is the corruption of a living being's soul, and therefore, creating life was evil. They were also against having six or having fun in any way through physical means, because those were all corruptions of your own soul, as well. Needless to say, they weren't quite capable of "spreading the word" fast enough to replace their own mortality rate, and would have died out even if the early Christians hadn't thought they were heretics and had them all rounded up. With that said, Gnosticism had an unmistakable impact upon Christianity, along with Sassanid Zoroastrianism's dualism of cosmic Good and Evil.)


The parallel I draw, then, is that this perfect forms idea is the idea of Anuiel. If you want to call Anuiel the "soul" of Anu, then the soul is the philosophic understanding of Anu. It is the Philosophy of Stasis. In this, everything simply eternally Is.

Sithis, then, is the philosophy of Heracletus, which leads to inevitable entropic decay. Padhomay is the pure existence of the void, and Sithis is the inevitability of entropic decay, which destroys even the fabric of reality in the end. It is the Philosophy of Change. It will end with everything being Is-Not.
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dell
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:11 pm

And I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out that that source argues both: It claims Sithis is a force and an entity/being. It's not just those 'nutty' Dark Brotherhood folks who anthropomorphize Sithis. Whoever wrote the Monomyth suggests the same and apparently the hist does as well.


Which raises the curious question of agency in TES. Is Sithis a 'way', or an actor, or some mix of the two? Is Sithis subject, object, both, neither? That goes for everyone else, too. And the Scrolls themselves, I suppose (I just met a certain eccentric Imperial scholar last night, whose odd declarations concerning the Scrolls seem to raise the issue of agency).
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brian adkins
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:05 pm

I'm sorry if I dip into Western Philosophy, but the basic blunt truth of the matter is that I don't really fully understand Taoist thought. The words of Tao are uncomfortable and unwieldy on my fingertips, and so if I am to use something as a metaphor to better my understanding of the subject, it must be something with which I am already familiar.

no apologies needed i just see it more as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat of course ive read way too much http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Anton_Wilson

oh here's a good clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEZtw1yt8Kc
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John Moore
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:44 pm

I'm not sure where you are going with this... I can create an infinite set of twin opposing opposite forces.

hot - cold
day - night
people who like chocolate - people who like vanilla

There are multiple ways in which you can describe the interplay of these opposites, and having "Is" opposed to "Is-Not" is just another way of talking about "All possible worlds at once" opposed to "Nothing at all", which can be described as well as "Stasis" versus "Entropy", which can be described as "Order" versus "Chaos".

You can divide these forces into different metaphors if you so choose. It depends upon your understanding of what terms like "Stasis" mean.

But Hot & Cold is different from day & night, though the two are related. Anu and Padomay are different than Anui-El and Sithis, and all four of these forces exist.
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Charlie Sarson
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:05 pm

But Hot & Cold is different from day & night, though the two are related. Anu and Padomay are different than Anui-El and Sithis, and all four of these forces exist.


I mean, why would you think three sets of opposites? As I said, I can make an infinite number of opposites. Or I can focus on one. Where is the division in these that you think is so important?
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Hella Beast
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:07 am

I mean, why would you think three sets of opposites? As I said, I can make an infinite number of opposites. Or I can focus on one. Where is the division in these that you think is so important?

They're the ones that made the universe, as recognized by the myths.

First, you have being and not being, is and is not. Something that wasn't becomes, and something that was stops being, and all of a sudden, you have change to deal with.
The sort of change that favors those things that already are is called order, the sort of change that favors things that aren't is called chaos.
The champion of order is the time dragon. The champion of chaos is the space-dude.

Hot and cold never enter into it. That's why I don't mention them.
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krystal sowten
 
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