The Tao of Sithis

Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:37 pm

The "(Non)Entity" called Sithis seems to me to be the same as the Tao. The void which all things come from and all return to. I could go deep into this but Sithis has always struck me as an aspect of Tao. Plus take into account the Akavari and obvious eastern influences the devs introduced to the games and it makes sense to me that there is a definite connection between the two concepts. Any comments?
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lauraa
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:40 am

http://chippit.tripod.com/watercourse_way.html

The Alan Watts book and these excerpts from it will help if your not familiar with Tao Philosophy
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CHANONE
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:49 pm

Read http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-monomyth, but I'll quote relevant paragraphs pertaining to this

"In Mundus, conflict and disparity are what bring change, and change is the most sacred of the Eleven Forces. Change is the force without focus or origin."-Oegnithr, Taheritae, Order of PSJJJJ

Simply put, the schism in the Human/Aldmeri worldview is the mortal's relationship to the divine. Humans take the humble path that they were created by the immortal forces, while the Aldmer claim descent from them. It doesn't seem like much, but it is a distinction that colors the rest of their diverging mythologies.

All Tamrielic religions begin the same. Man or mer, things begin with the dualism of Anu and His Other. These twin forces go by many names: Anu-Padomay, Anuiel-Sithis, Ak-El, Satak-Akel, Is-Is Not. Anuiel is the Everlasting Ineffable Light, Sithis is the Corrupting Inexpressible Action. In the middle is the Gray Maybe ('Nirn' in the Ehlnofex).

In most cultures, Anuiel is honored for his part of the interplay that creates the world, but Sithis is held in highest esteem because he's the one that causes the reaction. Sithis is thus the Original Creator, an entity who intrinsically causes change without design. Even the hist acknowledge this being.

Anuiel is also perceived of as Order, opposed to the Sithis-Chaos. Perhaps it is easier for mortals to envision change than perfect stasis, for often Anuiel is relegated to the mythic background of Sithis' fancies. In Yokudan folk-tales, which are among the most vivid in the world, Satak is only referred to a handful of times, as "the Hum"; he is a force so prevalent as to be not really there at all.

In any case, from these two beings spring the et'Ada, or Original Spirits. To humans these et'Ada are the Gods and Demons; to the Aldmer, the Aedra/Daedra, or the 'Ancestors'. All of the Tamrielic pantheons fill their rosters from these et'Ada, though divine membership often differs from culture to culture. Like Anu and Padomay, though, every one of these pantheons contains the archetypes of the Dragon God and the Missing God.


Also, it's closer to say Sithis is the Chaos to Anuiel's Stasis, instead of Void and Not Void. In fact, Padomay is closer to "the void" as Padomay is "IS NOT" to counter Anu's "IS"
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Pumpkin
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:54 am

The duality being true it brings me to http://personaltao.com/taoism-library/questions/what-is-yin-yang/

I'm not saying that TES religion is Taoism, I've just noticed they have similarities and with the Dev's obvious eastern influences at least ascetically with the Akavari men in the game I think there can be definite relationships in the way they wrote the gods and actual religious philosophy
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Rachael
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:56 am

The duality being true it brings me to http://personaltao.com/taoism-library/questions/what-is-yin-yang/

I'm not saying that TES religion is Taoism, I've just noticed they have similarities and with the Dev's obvious eastern influences at least ascetically with the Akavari men in the game I think there can be definite relationships in the way they wrote the gods and actual religious philosophy


Ah yes, outstanding point. Bethesda does this very well without stepping on toes, atleast loud toes.

And I AM NOT stating the following to cause a flame war or any of that crap, but Talos in Skyrim is similiar to Jesus Christ I many parts of the world, where he is outlawed from being worshipped. I don't know if Bethesda knew that when writing up the controversy with Talos, but I thought it was very cool.

Bethesda does a very good job of drawing from real world religion with thier writing.
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Evaa
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:19 am

The duality being true it brings me to http://personaltao.com/taoism-library/questions/what-is-yin-yang/

I'm not saying that TES religion is Taoism, I've just noticed they have similarities and with the Dev's obvious eastern influences at least ascetically with the Akavari men in the game I think there can be definite relationships in the way they wrote the gods and actual religious philosophy

There are certainly influences from real world religions, afterall the gameworld was designed by real world people, and real world people can't help but draw off of real world religion when creating their own. That said, there's no reason to try and relate them to their real world counterparts - there are no direct correlations. Wispy echoes, yes, but you won't find many things that translate directly.


On the topic of Sithis, I think Sithis is more properly viewed as 'limit' rather than chaos (except for maybe limit as it produces chaos). The Dark Brotherhood can interpret this as 'the limit of your life', but that's hardly the extent of it's application.
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GPMG
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:14 pm

I see no reason why a Tamrielian couldn't be Taoist, but I really see no reason to call any aspect of TES Lore Taoist. One of the fantastic elements of this series is that most religions don't seem to be all that involved in demanding that people act a certain way. None of the myths we have access to are all that proscriptive, unlike Taoism, which, as I understand it, is pretty much all about encouraging people to act a certain way.

Also, it's closer to say Sithis is the Chaos to Anuiel's Stasis, instead of Void and Not Void. In fact, Padomay is closer to "the void" as Padomay is "IS NOT" to counter Anu's "IS"

This is stupidly pedantic of me, but I'm fairly cerrain that Anuiel is Order, not Stasis. Anu is static existence. Padomay is static non-existence. Change (the Arubis / Sakatal, where IS eats IS NOT and IS NOT eats IS) is divided into Ordered Change and Chaotic Change | Anuiel / Sithis. The Soul of Anuiel, or Ordered Change, is Time, which imposes its rule on everything, is easy to categorize objectively (before / after) and is impartial. It keeps change orderly. The soul of Sithis, or Chaotic Change is Space, which allows things to go back and forth freely, can only be defined subjectively (left of, in front of, on top of), and plays loose with its own rules (allowing teleportation very easily)
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Mélida Brunet
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:57 am

This is stupidly pedantic of me, but I'm fairly cerrain that Anuiel is Order, not Stasis. Anu is static existence. Padomay is static non-existence. Change (the Arubis / Sakatal, where IS eats IS NOT and IS NOT eats IS) is divided into Ordered Change and Chaotic Change | Anuiel / Sithis. The Soul of Anuiel, or Ordered Change, is Time, which imposes its rule on everything, is easy to categorize objectively (before / after) and is impartial. It keeps change orderly. The soul of Sithis, or Chaotic Change is Space, which allows things to go back and forth freely, can only be defined subjectively (left of, in front of, on top of), and plays loose with its own rules (allowing teleportation very easily)

The Monomyth draws a relation between Anuiel and stasis (calling Order 'perfect stasis'), the book Sithis makes a similar implication.

Still, Sithis is limit, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnwU2iMRUqA.
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NEGRO
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:03 pm

While, yes, there is an obvious Yin-Yang metaphor to be drawn, I think there's also another: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros, the world-eating serpent.

The world-eating serpent is actually a universal symbol, so it's not just one particular myth, (and obviously Alduin kind of fits into this same sort of myth, as well,) but one of the forms of the myth I've heard told is that the Ouroboros is a two-headed serpent, half white, half black.

The black head of death is completely ravenous, and eats indiscriminately all living things. After consuming everything it could see, it then tried to eat its own other head.

The white head of life, however, has the power to infinitely grow so long as Ouroboros is nourished. As such, as the black head eats the white head, it perpetually regrows itself.

The Ouroboros itself is a symbol of the cycle of life and death - they both depend on one another for their continued ability to act or have meaning. Death must feed off of life to continue to exist. Life needs to feed off of death to continue to exist. The two are completely inseparable aspects of the other.
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marina
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:57 pm

The Monomyth draws a relation between Anuiel and stasis (calling Order 'perfect stasis'), the book Sithis makes a similar implication.

Still, Sithis is limit, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnwU2iMRUqA.

Yes, Order / Anueil is the soul, essence, refinement, or perfection of Stasis, but they're not quite exactly the same thing. The Yoku called Satak "The Hum," and what is a hum but a changing tone whose changes are so predictable (orderly) that they almost don't seem like changes at all? In fact, we call some hums "static" but they aren't the same thing as a static note. Like I said, this is a stupidly pedantic point.
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glot
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:03 am

Yes, Order / Anueil is the soul, essence, refinement, or perfection of Stasis, but they're not quite exactly the same thing. The Yoku called Satak "The Hum," and what is a hum but a changing tone whose changes are so predictable (orderly) that they almost don't seem like changes at all? In fact, we call some hums "static" but they aren't the same thing as a static note. Like I said, this is a stupidly pedantic point.
I dunno, I see it the other way around in this quote
Anuiel is also perceived of as Order, opposed to the Sithis-Chaos. Perhaps it is easier for mortals to envision change than perfect stasis, for often Anuiel is relegated to the mythic background of Sithis' fancies. In Yokudan folk-tales, which are among the most vivid in the world, Satak is only referred to a handful of times, as "the Hum"; he is a force so prevalent as to be not really there at all.

The Hum is a constant disturbance and everywhere at all times, but like with that one part in Fable 2, the vibrations from the controller feel as normal as breathing.
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Lil'.KiiDD
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:27 pm

I think we're probably agreeing on ideas but disagreeing on terms.
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Rachell Katherine
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:40 pm

Isn't that the crux of all of our arguments as of late?
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Ian White
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:21 am

Probably, but usually those words are more fun than "stasis" :P I particularly enjoy "mundane"
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helliehexx
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:06 pm

Any two diametrically terms will do. Any two picks will always be imperfect. So pick them to suit your argument. :P
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Alan Whiston
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:23 am

Any two diametrically terms will do. Any two picks will always be imperfect. So pick them to suit your argument. :P


You could also try thinking of it in terms of "Absolute Zero" as opposed by an impossibly searing heat that would render all matter to plasma - life can only exist in a tiny, narrow band of balance between the two extremes.
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jodie
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:46 pm

Terms are important, though, because of what they imply. Sithis is extremely hostile to the 'nothing'- 'stasis' here has negative implications. Come to think of it, the Sithis of Sithis is almost an anti-Tao. I'd say the same for most merish beliefs, actually- one thing all mer seem to have in common is that they can't just let things be.
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maddison
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:47 pm

Terms are important, though, because of what they imply. Sithis is extremely hostile to the 'nothing'- 'stasis' here has negative implications. Come to think of it, the Sithis of Sithis is almost an anti-Tao. I'd say the same for most merish beliefs, actually- one thing all mer seem to have in common is that they can't just let things be.


That is part of the point some of the posters have been trying to make, however - words have connotations that are dangerous.

"Killing", "Murdering", "Executing", "Slaying", "Releasing from his/her/its misery" are words that describe the same act, but have radically different connotations, but those are connotations that we, as perceivers of that act place upon the act. It has no bearing upon the objective truth of the act, itself.

To let our perceptions of the connotations of words color our perception of the objective facts of what Anu and Padomay actually are.

To say that Anu and Padomay ARE Tao, you can use that as a new perspective from which to view these concepts, but at the same time, shifting your perspective does nothing to change the objective facts of what Anu and Padomay actually are, and believing that they will somehow conform to his change in perspective is a mistake.

It is, ultimately, best to remain entirely objective, without thought for the connotations - "Murder" and "Mercy Killing" are the same act objectively, regardless of your feelings of the connotations, and should be viewed in the same light by those who wish to remain objective - but that it is often difficult for people to do so, and as such, shifting one's thought to multiple perspectives at least prevents one from becoming too attached to any one perspective.
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Jake Easom
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:04 am

What are Anu and Padomay but words? Literally nothing. In this case, changing the term does not change the connotation- it changes the thing itself.
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Stephy Beck
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:10 am

It is, ultimately, best to remain entirely objective, without thought for the connotations - "Murder" and "Mercy Killing" are the same act objectively, regardless of your feelings of the connotations, and should be viewed in the same light by those who wish to remain objective - but that it is often difficult for people to do so, and as such, shifting one's thought to multiple perspectives at least prevents one from becoming too attached to any one perspective.


Good point and well written. :)

Every time I've played a DB Quest line and they talk about Sithis my Taoist background makes it easier to grasp the concepts they are assigning to the Sithis enitity.

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal TaoThe name that can be named is not the eternal nameThe nameless is the origin of Heaven and EarthThe named is the mother of myriad thingsThus, constantly without desire, one observes its essenceConstantly with desire, one observes its manifestationsThese two emerge together but differ in nameThe unity is said to be the mysteryMystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders
- Lao-Tzu Tao Te Ching, Chapter 1

Sithis seems to be the space in between
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Blessed DIVA
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:56 am

Again, to go back to my earlier anology to absolute cold and heat, I would say that the problem with the Dark Brotherhood and Sithis is that it is essentially the exact same thing as the Thalmor and Anuriel - life and meaning exist only through the balancing of these two opposing, and ultimately, completely destructive forces. As the Thalmor would destroy all of creation to become something before being created, because they see all creation as corruption of the original divine spark from which they formed, the Dark Brotherhood worship mindless destruction for destruction's own sake.

Neither is healthy nor rational. Neither, by extension, can be considered "good".

Concepts like "change" and "chaos" in this game are necessary for the existence of life (or even existence as we can even perceive it at all), but that exists at a more primal state than where we can call something good or evil. Change needs to exist before there even can be a good or evil.
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kiss my weasel
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:45 pm

Some conceptual stuff.

When you have two elements on which the world it made off, there are two things that can happen. Things stay as they are or things change. When things change they can change in two directions. Either the two elements become more mixed (higher entropy) or they become unmixed (lower entropy).

Now depending on the words you pick, you are referring to two of these four conceptual transitions. I imagine the problem between stasis and change, order and chaos lies here. Order and Chaos are absolutes, stasis and change describe transitions on this scale.

---

Talking about Sithis alone is nonsense. Sithis is half of the interplay, anything that is observed and attributed to Sithis can be equally attributed to Anuiel. Ofcourse there is Sithis, Sithis and Sithis. The Sithis of the Darkbrotherhood is not that of the Psijic order and one might say is not Sithis at all.

---
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Marion Geneste
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:36 am

Some conceptual stuff.

When you have two elements on which the world it made off, there are two things that can happen. Things stay as they are or things change. When things change they can change in two directions. Either the two elements become more mixed (higher entropy) or they become unmixed (lower entropy).

Now depending on the words you pick, you are referring to two of these four conceptual transitions. I imagine the problem between stasis and change, order and chaos lies here. Order and Chaos are absolutes, stasis and change describe transitions on this scale.


I would argue this is not really it.

Rather, you are taking up the wrong idea of what I mean by "change". Perhaps, instead of saying "change", I should instead say "time". As in, "change over time", where change can only be observed as how something is different at one point in time from how it was in another point. As in rational cause-and-effect. Time can only exist in the balance between Anuriel's timeless instantaneousness that the Dwemer re-intigrated themselves into, and the entropic infinite insubstantiability of Sithis.

Changing this balance where "time" or "change" exist in the ways in which we rationally understand them is what causes Dragon Breaks.

Only through stability in this dualism can time continue in a manner which can be rationally perceived by mortals, and which is necessary for life to exist. Without it, you have the sort of problem like pre-Green Pact bosmer, where they changed from mer to beast without rhyme or reason because they had no shapes defined for them.

Or to put it into somewhat more ironic and confusing terms, the "change" I am talking about can exist only when the two forces remain in unchanging stasis.
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james tait
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:05 pm

I always thought the Dark Brotherhood didn't understand Sithis. Does Sithis even acknowledge their existence? Is Sithis sentient?
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Bek Rideout
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:42 am

Would I be obvious if I said that the :remain silent: response option in both the games that feature the brotherhood as a joinable faction mirrors, reflects, embodies Sithis?

My word I did enjoy the Skyrim questline.
To.. oh well.. spoilers.

To Wraith-Magnus: Sithis is the void. It is the ultimate: remain silent.
It is so far away from no that yes seems the same as no.
For to have a negative, there must be a positive to deny it.

I do not think it is a leap of the mind that some revere this ultimate denial, as much as it is a leap of the mind to think that the Sun is the source of all life and at the shortest day, whoever finds a bean in his stew has seen his last birthday.

"Time can only exist in the balance between Anuriel's timeless instantaneousness that the Dwemer re-intigrated themselves into, and the entropic infinite insubstantiability of Sithis. " Planck?
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Silencio
 
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