That doesn't say much. How can there be any Daedra or Aedra before the creation of Mundus? Their very names are based on their participation -or lack of- in it's creation.

Before Mundus was created they were all just spirits, either inclined to Anu or Padomay. At the creation of Mundus they became known as Aedra and Daedra. Some spirits like Dagon were transformed from one into another, others like Sheogorath or Hermaus Mora were created from the debris and the unused parts.

So while the "Daedra" we know are indeed not the ones that originally created Oblivion, there was no "original unity" that became split in an Aedra and Daedra as you suggest. Rather some spirits were changed by the creation of Mundus or born from it's refuge.

And while some parts that are now in Hermaus Mora might have been in Akatosh originally, this does not suggest that Akatosh and Hermaus Mora were one. For all we know Hermause Mora could be the Daedric Monster of Frankenstein, made out of the various discarded limbs of the Aedra. He certainly looks like it.

Now I've already shown the connection between Lorkhan and Sheogorath only exists when not accounting for the Shivering Isles and that when accounting for it, there is no connection.

I believe that takes out the main arguments of your theory.

While I agree that this takes out the main arguments of the theory, as I've said, I do see a different connection between Lorkhan and Sheogorath, that reconciles the retcon of the whole "sithis-shaped" hole thing. Just as the convention changed the leaper into Dagon, I also think that the convention changed jyg into sheggers. I know what has been stated about it, how the other daedric princes envied/feared his power, but I think that was a lie perpetuated by Sheogorath so as to not have to explain that he (in fact) does not know why he became mad. Once again, who says sithis shaped has to mean in the image of sithis? What if it means shaped by sithis? So, the negative aspect of creation (which is negation) made Sheogorath? He is the inevitable reconciliation of the paradox (in this case a lack of logic, i.e. a "hole") created by the convention. I'm just saying, I don't think that we're heard the last of this little argument. Perhaps future in-game books will reveal the mystery in this. Probably not, though. Beth likes opening cans of worms they don't intend to eat. LOL.

I don't see how you've demonstrated this at all, especially considering my discoveries hinge on what was learned in the Shivering Isles.


There was, and it's called AE, along with myriad other tiers of subcreation between AE and the entities we know of. Division by IS and IS NOT is the only way the number of ada changes, apart from which they are not born and do not die, except by zero sum. Creation of ada by division is not my invention nor unique to my theory. You seem particularly concerned by the "born out of leftovers" concept that's been applied to Hermaus Mora, but what does "born out of leftovers" mean? It means there was something that was initially involved in creation but subsequently not involved in creation. That fits my explantation perfectly - a division into what was involved in creation and what was not.

What I've presented does not contradict existing views. It is a more holistic view on the same.

That makes no sense at all! It was Jygallag who told you this. He would have been there when they cursed him and if Jygallag and Sheogorath had always been like this, why put such nonsense in plot exposition with no hints that they are nonsense.



The context from Faith in the Empire does: Sheogorath (The Mad God): The fearful obeisance of Sheogorath is widespread, and is found in most Tamrielic quarters. Contemporary sources indicate that his roots are in Aldmeri creation stories; therein, he is 'born' when Lorkhan's divine spark is removed. One crucial myth calls him the 'Sithis-shaped hole' of the world.

The removal of the heart from Lorkhans chest left a hole. The sithis shaped hole because Lorkhan was the soul of Padomay|Sithis and so would be his heart and divine spark as Sithis is what defined Lorkhan.

Still this is besides the point because the myth indicates that Sheogorath was created as a direct result of the removal of Lorkhans heart, not merely a coincidence at the same time.



I've mentioned it in the 3th paragraph of post #3 and provided a complete explanation in #10. You haven't commented on either.



You theorized that "each aedra known to us must be a member of a triad formed of an IS (aedra), IS NOT (daedra), and an original unity." and that these respectively would be Akatosh, Hermaus Mora and Magnus.

As such AE is completely irrelevant to this discussion as an example of this unity because you suggested that Akatosh and Hermaus Mora aswell as Lorkhan and Jyg were part of one such unity and only split at the Creation of Mundus.

So proper examples by your theory would have been Lyg or Magnus and a reiteration of why you think they are.



Which is nonsense. Hermaus Mora is the thing that was made out of the parts that were thrown out. While the parts might all have been involved, Hermaus more as a whole was not. It'd be like saying that a person was involved in his own conception because the parts that created him were.

I responded in #16 to your objections. Your concern was that Sheogorath was either formed from remnants of Lorkhan when his heart was removed, or Sheogorath was formed by Jyggalag being cursed. As I'd have it, Lorkhan and Jyggalag were formed from remnants of Lyg, and Sheogorath was formed when Jyggalag was cursed by the removal of Lorkhan's heart. There is no contradiction within my account, only in the traditional accounts.

AE is relevant because its the original model for how ada divide. You can disagree on the timing of division, or which ada make up particular triads, but you can't disagree that division occurs or that triads in general exist.

The evidence for the Lyg-Lorkhan-Jyggalag triad is that its the only way all the isolated independent lore statements about those three make sense, because as you've pointed out, Jyggalag is problematic.

Magnus and Akatosh pretty much have to go together to maintain symmetry with Lyg and Lorkhan. You're welcome to postulate a third spoke to that triad other than Hermaeus Mora, but he has the most going for him as a candidate. Being made of remnants of creation is a feature of Hermaeus, but that doesn't mean its a feature exclusive to Hermaeus or make him ineligible to be part of a greater whole.

You're aware that Lyg is just another name for Lorkhan?



also known as:



Just as:



refers to:



As such Molag Ball "Keeper of Coldharbour since the fall of Lyg" has been doing so since the creation of Mundus. Not at any point before that where Lorkhan and Jygallag could have been seperated without notice.

Lyg is not just another name for Lorkhan. It's what I've said it is. The literature affirms Lyg is related to Lorkhan but does not exclude Lyg from being something other than identical to Lorkhan. The fall of Lyg was not identical to the creation of the Mundus. The removal of Lorkhan's heart was subsequent to the creation of the Mundus, so there is room for all kinds of events interposing between creation and the fall of Lyg. Furthermore, the known daedra did not exist until the removal of the heart (fall of Lyg) so to say Mehrunes threw down Lyg is necessarily a form of synecdoche referring to an Ur-Dagon before the convention. Trinimac tore out Lorkhan's heart, Mehrunes Dagon threw down Jyggalag and cracked his face, Ur-Dagon did something mortals can't comprehend to Lyg, and Lorkhan's planet cracked into Jone and Jode. These are all different views on the same event.

I do not see anything that indicates Lyg is anything other then Lorkhan. The few times the name Lyg is used, is in phrases that are almost identical to phrases used to describe Lorkhan.

If there is nothing to go against it, that does not make it automatically true. You still have to make the assumption that Lyg and Lorkhan are not merely different names for the same subject. However because the phrases are identical, that is a rather large assumption that requires equally strong evidence.


As for Mehrunes Dagon, the Aedra rebelled against Lorkhan in Mundus. In the Commentaries Mehrunes Dagon, was created in that moment: It should come as no surprise that aside from destruction, Mehrunes sphere covers change, revolution, energy, and ambition.

That Mehrunes threw Lyg down in this moment again coincides with the creation of Mundus.

edit:

Should note that the Aldudaga paints Mehrunes as being changed from a Leaper Demon. Though this also coincides with the creation of Nirn.

While I am not a "loremaster" I must say I agree with the hounorable Proweler on the point that Lyg is another name for Lorkhan. The part from the Commentaries that goes thusly:
What is an upstart?
1. a person who has risen suddenly from a humble position to wealth, power, or a position of consequence.
2. a presumptuous and objectionable person who has so risen; parvenu.
4. to spring into existence or into view.
Which of these would describe Lorkhan? From The Monomyth: In the beginning, all et'Ada were "equal". Then Lorkhan convinced the et'Ada to create the Mortal Plane. Could we then say that Lorkhan fits the third definition of upstart? Lorkhan was presumptuous in thinking that he (and the other et'Ada) could create the Mortal Plane.
Now the "...who vanishes." From The Monomyth:
Lorkhan being seperated from his "divine center" is him "vanishing"
Thus Lyg is Lorkhan.

I would suggest that the Daedra were irrelevant, but only in the frame of reference that mortals can comprehend. They are eternal, and sixteen discovered connections with the Grey Maybe and were given a new sort of form. Why are the Mnemolia and Magna-Ge ineffable and locked out of Mundus? They are the gods of Nothing You Can Know, and invisible.

...Are we sure that we should totally buy Jyg's account of his "cursing"? Who is to say that the Lord of Order was not driven insane simply by the advent of free will that occurred when Lorkhan's spark became the world's?

Jyg's account states: The other Princes, fearful of my power, cursed me with Madness, doomed me to live as Sheogorath, a broken soul reigning in a broken land. Once each era, I was allowed my true form, conquering this world anew. And each time I did, the curse was renewed, damning me to exist as Sheogorath.

The facts of Jyg's curse are simple: it is cyclical, not permanent, and self-perpetuating. As in, every era he is recursed, and the other Daedra do not have to "recast" the curse. Why does it cycle? Why does it self perpetuate? Simply put, something about the establishment of a Daedric plane of Order causes the Daedric Lord of Order to go insane. Could it be that, since the advent of Free Will, there can be no established, predictable Order? I would postulate that once he completes his conquest, he becomes Order-incarnate (The realm and the prince and the sphere are all one in the same, so until the Prince and realm are in agreement, the sphere is not 'active'), and in a cosmos that contains irrational free will (his ex-librarian demonstrates Jyg's utter inability to comprehend that) such a being is unable to exist.

However, that postulate requires the Daedric Princes to have not cursed them, which flies in the face of what Jyg directly states. I feel that that is not a problem, however, for the following reasons: The only other being we know was 'cursed' by the Daedra was Malacath, who is decidedly permanent in aspect. Why did the MO for Daedric cursing change? Most importantly if the Daedra cursed Jyg out of fear, like he claims, why does not a single Daedric lord even seem to care about his decursing?

Basically, I don't believe Jyg's account of his curse as "described in the Shivering Isles" and see no reason to buy it simply because it does not make sense. After all, why would Jyg know the details of the workings of the other Daedric Princes? Did they send him a newsletter one day spelling out their plans to curse him next Tuesday after the backyard BBQ? If they had cursed him, I do not see how he would know. However, if he was suddenly changed by an event that he did not understand at all (the advent of free will), then he would quite possibly rationalize it as "the other kids beat me up 'cause they're scared of me".

So I agree with you that the devs need to clear this up, but I am not so certain that they are muddled about it at all. It is very likely that there is a final piece that we are missing that synthesizes the accounts. Maybe that piece is that Jyg is wrong, like I speculate, or maybe it is that the entirety of SI was a mad delusion, the Prince of Madness making good on Haskill's pronouncement that the Champion should be the one who "needs the cure."

The antecedent of "they" in the following is not the aedra:

It's the Magna Ge. The Magna Ge created the daedric princes, but what they're most known for is leaving. Parsimoniously, the leaving and the creating daedric princes were the same thing, as I've described. This did not happen at the creation of the Mundus. This happened after the Convention, which is not at all the same as the creation of the Mundus. The Convention is when it was decided to abandon the Mundus, so necessarily came later than creation.

For each star, there's always a part inside because the essence of participating in the Mundus is the sacrifice of at least a part of the self. There's a part outside for everything except the earthbones.

Oblivion was made by the ada that looked into the void. Jyggalag however had hegemony over Oblivion for "ages" before being cursed, so existed ages before the majority of daedric princes. The unstars are stars that go the other way, and there are four of them. If the stars were made through escape, the unstars were made by entry. The candidates for the four are the ur-dra, ada who looked into the void long before the other princes existed, and conveniently four of them have been named: Lorkhan, Jyggalag, Nocturnal, and Namira. However, Lorkhan is not a daedric prince. He's the heart of the world. He's the part on the inside, while Jyggalag, Nocturnal, and Namira are names for parts on the outside. There are four unstars, but only Sheogorath is the Sithis-shaped hole. Only one was affected by the removal of the heart. Only one was betrayed by his peers. That's the one connected to Lorkhan. Who's left as the fourth? Maybe Vaernima, but I don't know.

The connection between Lorkhan and Jyggalag makes SI fall into place with the rest of the series like a missing puzzle piece. The nature of that connection is participation in a greater unity. If you're going to disagree, be clear about whether you're disagreeing that the unity exists or disagreeing that the unity is called Lyg.

Creation wasn't finished until the convention where it was terminated because the project was failing and never made it to its goals. Arguing over the order of events in creation is pointless not only because it was a timeless period but more so because no myth has that sort of resolution of the events.

The Magna-Ge, the Stars, those who fled to Heaven. Auri-El was one of them.



1. Now for your arguments "Lyg" must have been split before the creation of Mundus because then Lorkhan became known as an actor. However every quote involving Lyg not only resembles similair quotes about Lorkhan, they seem to describe events that happened during the creation of Mundus.

2. Now to further reinforce the argument that Mehrunes Dagon was created at the same time as Mundus, I'd like to refer you the Aldudaga. The Leaper became Dagon while he and the Greedyman were stealing parts of the world to make it last.

From 1&2 Lyg is Lorkhan and you have nothing to show that this isn't the case. With nothing to show that Lyg was anything other then Lorkhan, you have no argument for the existence of this unity.

Now if you must solve the inconsistency between the story of the Shivering Isles and Faith in the Empire. Merely change the name Sheogorath into Jygallag and add a line about him being cursed by the Daedric Princes soon after.
It isn't pretty but it works and can place your arguments about Jygallag ruling over Oblivion without the assumption that there were any sort of unities that got broken up. Because it makes fewer assumptions it is more probable.

I'm sorry for saying the wrong name about who says what. However, I must say, "No, sir, it is you who are beside the point." Or rather I didn't make my point clear enough. Nowhere in what I said did I say that Jyg and Sheog were always like this. The point I was trying to make is, however, that I do not see the SI as a retcon, as Nazz called it. I see it as considering the same events we already know about from a different perspective. Rather than looking outside in, we're getting to see it from the inside out. The being who tells you how this happened, however, technically ceased to be during these events, so I'm not totally sure he/it knows the whole story, just their part. Lie was probably a poor word choice. Misinformed would've been better.

I agree with the fact that most of my post was beside the point (for this thread anyway), however, this line about what it means to be Sithis-shaped is my point exactly. I was trying to reconcile the differences between faith and the empire and what you are told happened to Jyggalag in the Shivering Isles. If sithis-shaped (which probably both are true, making it a double-meaning phrase) means shaped by sithis, then try to think laterally (as you always urge people to do). Jyg said the other princes were involved. If the other princes are Padomaic in nature, and Sithis is the soul of Padomay, then shaped by sithis is a metaphor. I do not contend the point that the removal of Lorkhan's heart would leave a hole shaped like sithis. I agree, I'm just saying there may be more to this phrase than what is superficially apparent. This phrase and what Jyggalag tells you in the Shivering Isles MQ do not exactly disagree if you consider Sithis-shaped and all its possible meanings. The point is, we should keep an open mind. I'm not calling the creation of Sheogorath a coincidence. I believe it is directly related to the removal of Lorkhan's heart. Exactly how closely related Jyg and Lorkhan are remains to be seen. If you still have a distaste for what I just said, Prow, chalk it up to my mental reconciliation of a supposed retcon which bothers me deeply. Anyway, good thread. I enjoyed reading it. I know my theories need work, so I'm not gonna knock yours. However, Proweler does make some good points about it. (btw Lyg does = Lorkhan, I agree with Prow on that point wholeheartedly) I still find it very interesting, though. I hope to read more from you. Good work, man.

I can certainly see where you're getting from. The thing is though is that it doesn't seem to be intended to fit because all the contradictions are delivered in a bit of plot exposition. Granted with the spaghetti-lore from the past games nothing ever was, it just magically did.

That magic clearly is gone now because the only way to make it fit now seem to be with ugly hacks. Perhaps because Faith in the Empire describes the origins in a more interesting manner then the Shivering Isles did.

Owh well. Maybe I'm just getting old and attached.

I truly agree with the fact that Faith in the Empire is much more interesting than the "truth" we get. That's exactly why I tried to make a hybrid theory (not to be confused with Linkin Park's first album) that makes both fit (sort of). LOL. I wish the devs wouldn't double back on themselves quite so much, since one of these days they're going to paint themselves in a corner. I can see it now... "TES 7 - How Lorkhan got his groove back"! j/k

I smell a "Dragon Break" excuse possibly being cooked up by Bethesda...

Is and Is Not sound like binary - is this Chimology?

The purpose of this bump?