A preponderance of remarks in the literature suggests that the ranking and relationship of certain et'Ada are different than commonly believed. The prevailing notion is that Akatosh and Lorkhan are two parts of the same being that is an admixture of anuic and padomaic forces. As I will show, there is reason to believe that instead there is a more involved pleuroma in which the primary actors are Magnus and Lyg. These each respectively encompass Akatosh and Hermaeus Mora, and Lorkhan and Jyggalag. Understanding this pleuroma depends first on a proper understanding of the fundamental components of the Anuad, namely the interplay of possibility and limit. "Mythical Aurbis" describes this process as follows:



The aldmeri view on this point is more edifying than other approximations to the possibility/limit duality, such as stasis/change, or worse yet, good/evil. Unfortunately, the aldmeri view does suffer under a bias towards the possibility-pole, as exemplified by this passage:



Which claims Auri-El to be the motive force responsible for the existence of other et'Ada. This can be immediately recognized as incompatible with the identification of Auri-El as the avatar of the possibility-pole. There is but one aurbis which is primal and every advent results from the application of a limit, like the form of a statue being carved from a solid block. Luckily, some altmer developed the intellectual integrity to recognize the contradiction in their belief.



Some still misunderstand PSJJJJ to be an actor in a drama who caused the Aurbis to happen but hasn't been heard from since. PSJJJJ is the carving of the block. Each cut is PSJJJJ and each sculpture is an Original Spirit. As we know, Lorkhan proposed the project that was the Mundus and enlisted other et'Ada to contribute, and there is a taxonomy of et'Ada depending on the degree that they participated in Mundus. From "Shezarr's Song":



There are the aedra that participated and the daedra that did not participate, but the waters are muddied when further examining the degrees of participation. There are the Earthbones that completely subsumed their identities into the Mundus, the Planets that linked themselves inextricably to the Mundus yet retain independent identities, and the Stars that began to participate but then withdrew. This is according to the traditional aldmer view that the Mundus is a prison in which et'Ada were either trapped or escaped, but the daedra frame it otherwise: cutting parts off. If the et'Ada cut parts of themselves off to form the Mundus, it necessarily follows that there exist remnant portions of the aedra outside the Mundus. In the altmer cosmology, only a subset of aedra - the stars, or Magna Ge, fit this mold. To see how the pattern applies to all aedra, let us consider the Convention - that most eventful un-time. The Convention was the occassion of the Magna Ge's departure, among other events - not the least of which are the removal of Lorkhan's heart and the birth of Sheogorath, about whom Varieties of Faith says,



The truth is that Sheogorath is actually the same being as Jyggalag, but cursed into madness. The "birth" of Sheogorath at the Convention must actually have been the cursing of Jyggalag - but why should the removal of Lorkhan's divine spark be causally related? The answer lies in that he is the "Sithis-shaped hole", or an un-star. The stars are holes created by the departure of the Magna Ge to Aetherius. The un-stars are somewhat unique, but the key element is this: departure. Sheogorath is counted among the daedra, but before the Convention he was part of Mundus. The entire classification schema must be reevaluated.

The hypostasis of all et'Ada is the division of unity into parts - identification of a self through circumscription, with an implied identification of the remnant. IS and IS NOT. Seen in this light, the "cutting-off" involved in the Mundus is neither exceptional nor mysterious (beyond the degree to which et'Ada are necessarily mysterious.) Thus each aedra known to us must be a member of a triad formed of an IS (aedra), IS NOT (daedra), and an original unity. This division is in the likeness of Anu contemplating himself by forming Anuiel and Sithis, and is the only true origin of any "new" et'Ada.



Mortality was the cornerstone of Lorkhan's design, set in place by the removal of his divine spark. This confirms that Hermaeus Mora came into existence at the Convention, and moreover confirms this for the rest of the princes since Mora is "one of the oldest." As for the beings which are the unities of aedra and daedra, only one class matches the description of having removed part of themselves from Mundus at the Convention: the Magna Ge, or the stars. The star corresponding to Hermaus Mora and Akatosh, the greatest daedra and aedra, must be none other than the greatest star: Magnus. This brings us back to the un-star of Jyggalag. Who might be the corresponding aedra? Jyggalag's sphere is orderliness and the precise procession of predictable phenomena. His mission is to constrain possibility. The matching ada who remained in the Mundus is the one that is "more a limit than a nature" - Lorkhan. Lorkhan's failure, which was his success, was mortality, allowing that which he created to trancend its creator and the undeniable predictability of a causal universe. When Lorkhan lost his heart, Jyggalag correspondingly lost his mind. There is not a clear candidate for the original unity of Lorkhan and Jyggalag, but there is reason to suspect it is the entity known as Lyg, or "the Void Ghost."

What might be the consequences of Jyggalag's return to sanity? It is probably one of a few steps required for the return of Lorkhan, though its unclear whether Lorkhan would want to be restored since he "failed" with full forethought. Should he do so, it is doubtful that the Mundus would continue to exist. Could there be some agency knowledgeable enough to know how to restore Lorkhan, nihilistic enough to desire it, powerful enough to effect the events of the end of the age, and subtle enough not to appear responsible? Thankfully, this is unlikely.

I call the "Herma Mora and Akatosh is Magnus" thing to be suspect; Magnus is essentially light, which is Magicka. There can be a debate on whether Nocturnal is the strongest Daedra; the other Princes--Herma Mora included--http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/index1.shtml#nocturnal, which is a high term of respect, as the Aldmeris (?) translation would dictate. She IS a mythic echo of the Void itself, so it makes much sense.

edit: And I don't wanna look like I'm nitpicking, but at the top, I'd use "Limit and All" or "Infinity and Limit" as opposed to "Possibility and Limit;" Possibility doesn't exist until Mundus is created, in the advent of static change.

Rhoark you touch on an interesting subject, the creation of the Daedra. About Sheogorath, Mehrunes Dagon and Hermaus Mora we know that they were shaped in one way or another by the creation of Mundus. Although this doesn't directly imply involvement with creation.

To describe Sheogorath as the Sithis shaped hole can mean as much as describing him as the thing that was created when Lorkhans heart was pulled out to give the world it's own divinity to allow it to exist on it's own. Creating a god with a thousand different minds, is essentially inventing madness. Sheogorath lept up to cover this newly created concept. A similair idea would apply to Hermaus Mora.

Unfortunately we now have Jygallag who breaks this part of the Lore for Sheogorath. In a rather sloppy at that. Some devs need to stick their heads together and get their stories straight. Until then I don't see any way of gently reconciling both stories.
I personally prefer to do it all off as a mad delerium, Sheogorath having two personalities is quite fitting for the Prince of Madness. I expect Jyg to return to the Shivering Isles again to start the whole thing over again.

The Altmer described Lorkhan as a limitation, but this is only because they view Anu, stasis, as endless untapped possibility. So Lorkhans limitation comes from acting out these possibilities, changing stasis, quite the opposite of Jyg.

The Void Ghost and Lyg and the Blue bone ring of Jyg are references to Lorkhan. The two are a little hard to explain, the second you can get from the context of the commentaries. Specifically the bit about being cracked in two, like the Moons.

That Magnus part doesn't make any sense....and that still leaves the question of where Peryite also fits in with those guys.

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I haven't had as much time as I would like to respond. This is what I wrote to someone who PM'd me about the thread, and it could help clarify for everyone what I'm saying about Lorkhan and Jyggalag.



This perspective really ties SI in with the rest of the recent Elder Scrolls titles: prerequisites to the return of Lorkhan.

As to why Magnus is involved: as I established, aedra, daedra, and stars are related. We know Lorkhan and Jyggalag are associated with the unstar. The counterpart of the unstar is the great star, Magnus. The counterpart of Lorkhan is Akatosh. Akatosh is related to Hermaeus Mora. Therefore we have the two sets
Lyg, Lorkhan, Jyggalag
and
Magnus, Akatosh, Hermaus Mora

When did the Lorkhan-Jyggalag relationship come in?

Lorkhan and Jyggalag have both been associated with the unstar.
Jyggalag was "cursed" when Lorkhan's heart was removed.

So, would that mean that, theoretically, if an Aedra died, his corresponding counterpart would perish as well?

What about Peryite?

That seems to be a case of incompatible storylines.

Faith in the Empire describes Sheogorath as if he was born out of the left overs of Lorkhan after his Heart was removed, just as Hermaus Mora is made out of junk that wasn't used in creation.

However if Jygallag was cursed, as it's described in the Shivering Isles, he came into existence at the same time as Lorkhan lost his heart. This then is merely a coincidence and has no actual relation to Lorkhan.

You can't have it both ways.

Can't the curse be seen as a device explaining the devastating effect of Mundus' creation on Jygallag's sphere? Jygallag could be Meridia-figure, or an Anuic being whose ties to Mundus (and Lorkhan's nature) resulted in disaster.

That still doesn't allow any sort of connection to Lorkhan because Lorkhan and Jyg would have been complete separate entities.



The dialog of the Shivering Isles doesn't give much resolution either as it is rather straight forward and talks about the other Princes.

Some devs would really need to stick their heads together here because some parts create the idea that the Daedra weren't formed with their current identity until after the creation of Mundus. Specifically Dagon in the Aldudaga, Sheogorath in Faith of the Empire, Hermaus Mora in the Census of Daedra Lords and in general: "The Daedra were created at this time also [creation of Mundus], being spirits and Gods more attuned to Oblivion, or that realm closer to the Void of Padomay. ". While other parts suggest that the Daedra have always had their shape, namely Shivering Isles and all the Monomyths that list the Daedra right from the start.

Until now it didn't matter because it could swing either way depending on what you chose to disbelief but now Shivering Isles makes a clear swing to the Daedra being stuck as they are from the start (or at the very least invalidating Faith in the Empires view on Sheogorath) while at the same time we're also reading more about Daedra being changed by the creation of Mundus. Admittedly I find the latter to be a far more interesting idea.

I'll say what you're thinking... that svcks. In absence of anything else to qualify it, or a radically different "lore version" that line just svcks and doesn't stop svcking.

So it's lore or game, then?

Both views are lore thats the problem. Unless you want to excuse Jygallags dialog as being the mandatory plot exposition that was simplified because it had to be done in three lines, but that's really stretching it.

There's a two step process.

First at the convention, the et'Ada decided to get out of the Mundus. The process of getting out created the stars. They couldn't escape completely, so parts were trapped in the Mundus (aedra) and parts escaped (daedra). Hermaeus and Akatosh and Peryite and all the rest formed via this sky-passage. Lyg was slightly different as he was breaking in instead of breaking out, making the unstar that goes the other way. (c.f. "Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi" about the origin of Lorkhan.) The part that stayed outside was Jyggalag.

Lorkhan's heart was removed as a second event after Lyg divided. It was the passage through the sky-barrier that caused the division, rather than the removal of the heart. The removal of the heart caused Jyggalag's nature to change into Sheogorath. It's possible the daedra also cursed him in an enantiomorphic event.

References to ada doing things before they divided at convention can be taken as referring to their super-entities.

So if the et'Ada who break out become the Daedra, then why do the holes (stars) that were created by their escape go to Aetherius?

Isn't that the Sithis shaped hole?

Wasn't was "Sithis Shaped Hole" originally a metaphor?

There is only one Serpent constellation, the majority of the constellations are normal stars that go to Oblivion.

The creation of the Daedra could very much be an Arkay like situation. Lords of "Nobody Really Cares" who stayed to watch the creation of the Mundas but said "No thanks" to helping create it. Who then found their purpose (were created) once the Mundas was stabalized. It's not to far fetched, I don't think, and as you point out seems to be how things are leaning.

That still doesn't help resolve how Jyg came about. I think we can assume it was retconned a bit.

They couldn't escape to Oblivion, because they hadn't created it yet.

It already existed.

Yes, it does. The sundering of Lorkhan at the hands of Trinimac and behest of Auriel created madness due to the inherent paradox in the removal of Auriel's other-self's heart. This is what made Akatosh insane. The first madness came about at this time, altering Jyggalag from a state of perfect balance, to the state of Sheogorath, Prince of Madness. It is, for this reason, we can call Sheggers the "sithis-shaped" hole. He is the void left by the absense of Jyg, and created by the absense of Lorkhan. It does, in fact, explain it. It explains it quite well. I thought we've been over this before... Haven't we? BTW....not my theory, I just read it and can't remember who said it.

This confirms that Oblivion was created rather than being an essential feature of the aurbis. The ordering of paragraphs in Vehk's implies Oblivion was created before Nirn, but the census of daedra lords says the oldest daedra formed at the convention. We also have Molag Bal, "master of Coldharbour since the fall of Lyg." Either one source is right and the other is wrong, or the daedra we know were not the ones that originally created Oblivion.

In fact the latter option fits perfectly as an explanation of the relationship between Jyggalag and the other daedric princes.