The Thalmor and the Righteous

Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:32 am

Can somebody please explain the war in a simplified fashion?

Are the Thalmor evil? What are their motivations for attacking?

e.t.c.e.t.c.e.t.c
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Mark Churchman
 
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Post » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:52 pm

Can somebody please explain the war in a simplified fashion?

Are the Thalmor evil? What are their motivations for attacking?

e.t.c.e.t.c.e.t.c

They think Nirn is a hellhole, and want to go back to the good ol' days when they thought they were gods. They are 'evil' by most standards of men, but they think that they are helping the world. As for their motivations, they wanted to get rid of Talos, which they did achieve either way.
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Nicole Coucopoulos
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:11 am

They are more or less the Nazi party. Outlawing a certain kind of religion, conquiering countries, looking down to the other races (species). That's the way I see them. In their own minds they are doing what's right, but that's usually the case for 'evil'.

If your playing true to a Atlmer character, you'll see the Thalmor as good. Same possibly with Bosmer and possibly Khajiit, besides that your more or less going to see them as evil.
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FABIAN RUIZ
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:20 am

As I understand it, TES universe is very big on belief. If enough people believe in something, then it happens. If people believe that a certain god is good, he will be good etc.
Elves used to be immortal but when humans came to Tamriel, they lost their immortality due to humans believing that they are mortal. In order to regain their immortality they need to completely destroy men, and remove every evidence of them. Since Talos protects humans, they banned the worship of him. This can basically destroy Talos which will make removing humans from existance easier.

That's how I understand it. Someone more lore-wise could explain it better.
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James Wilson
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:58 am

What is their rough racial constituency, or are the made up of one lone race?

I used to like the elves D:
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adame
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:16 am

They are more or less the Nazi party. Outlawing a certain kind of religion, conquiering countries, looking down to the other races (species). That's the way I see them. In their own minds they are doing what's right, but that's usually the case for 'evil'.

If your playing true to a Atlmer character, you'll see the Thalmor as good. Same possibly with Bosmer and possibly Khajiit, besides that your more or less going to see them as evil.



Godwin's law. Please, stop trying to apply real life parties and real life political leanings to a high fantasy world. It pisses me off to no end.
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Nicola
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:49 am

The Altmer also have a legitimate reason to dislike men in general and the Cyrodillic Empire in particular. The Aldmeri Dominion was previously conquered by the Septims using the Numidium. As far as the Thalmor are concerned it is time for payback.
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Angel Torres
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:25 pm

What is their rough racial constituency, or are the made up of one lone race?

I used to like the elves D:

Its basically the Altmer of Summerset. Any and all things (Aside from the Bosmer) outside of Summerset is considered filth, even other Altmer.
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leigh stewart
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:11 am

In the simplest terms I can think of, the Thalmor are a lot like Magneto. They want to make a new, awesome world where everyone has super powers, but along the way they're doing some really nasty stuff, and not everyone wants the superpowers the Thalmor plans on handing out.
They are more or less the Nazi party. Outlawing a certain kind of religion, conquiering countries, looking down to the other races (species). That's the way I see them. In their own minds they are doing what's right, but that's usually the case for 'evil'.

If your playing true to a Atlmer character, you'll see the Thalmor as good. Same possibly with Bosmer and possibly Khajiit, besides that your more or less going to see them as evil.

They're like the Nazis, if the Nazis were magical elves who lived for hundreds of years and instead of fighting for living space, wanted to transcend both life and space. So, yeah, exactly like the nazis :rolleyes:
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Cat Haines
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:06 am

The Nazi comparison seems pretty accurate from what I've seen in game- genocide and conquering in name of racial superiority. So in that sense yeah.

As for the Altmer, I think that there is a sizable portion of them don't agree with Thalmor beliefs and escape to other provinces to escape potential persecution and genocide. I might go as far to say a lot of Altmer (and most Bosmer) are only going with the Thalmor because they would probably die if they didn't. Much like the situation in Nazi Germany with the common German citizen.

Thalmor=Evil. It doesn't matter if what they think they're doing is righteous- genocide can't be tolerated.
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Christine Pane
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:30 am

The Blades want to kill the dragon Paarthurnax for his role in Alduin's genocides, forgetting that thier Imperial ancestors comitted Merish genocides under Pelinal.

Where do you draw the line between "justice" and "forgiveness." Who gets to punish who?

Empires aren't peaceful things. To create an empire, you gotta kill alot. Everyone is equally guilty. The Thalmor aren't evil, they just want payback.
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Josh Lozier
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:20 am

The Nazi comparison seems pretty accurate from what I've seen in game- genocide and conquering in name of racial superiority. So in that sense yeah.

As for the Altmer, I think that there is a sizable portion of them don't agree with Thalmor beliefs and escape to other provinces to escape potential persecution and genocide. I might go as far to say a lot of Altmer (and most Bosmer) are only going with the Thalmor because they would probably die if they didn't. Much like the situation in Nazi Germany with the common German citizen.

Thalmor=Evil. It doesn't matter if what they think they're doing is righteous- genocide can't be tolerated.



The Altmer aren't conquering for racial superiority, they're conquering for the superiority of their species. No one gives the homo sapiens [censored] for wiping out the neanderthals. They do not see what they are doing as genocide, they are releasing spirits into the dreamsleeve which will go on to become gods when they achieve their goals. They do things that are not nice, but for a noble cause. The end justifies the means, as long as there is something to justify the end.
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yessenia hermosillo
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:55 pm

I'm still in shock that all of this is even happening. I never foresaw the Altmer dominating Tamriel nor did I see the races of men split up so badly.
Have the Thalmor been planning to divide men up well before 4E?

I'm anxious to see where all this will lead.

Whats the Thalmors policy on Dunmer?
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Joe Alvarado
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:24 pm

I'm still in shock that all of this is even happening. I never foresaw the Altmer dominating Tamriel nor did I see the races of men split up so badly.
Have the Thalmor been planning to divide men up well before 4E?

I'm anxious to see where all this will lead.


Short answer yes, the Thalmor had agents in Valenwood gathering support for reforming the Dominion as the Oblivion Crisis was beginning and you can bet they had been planing for years if not decades before that.

The Dunmer, more specifically Vivec and the rest of the Tribunal, are the ones who gave the Numidium to the Empire which allowed the empire to conquer the Aldmeri Dominion in the first place. So yeah pretty sure there are allot of Bosmer/ Altmer who still haven't forgiven them for that.
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Oyuki Manson Lavey
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:21 am

I'm still in shock that all of this is even happening. I never foresaw the Altmer dominating Tamriel nor did I see the races of men split up so badly.
Have the Thalmor been planning to divide men up well before 4E?

I'm anxious to see where all this will lead.

Whats the Thalmors policy on Dunmer?


On the first question, Elves have been trying to divde men since the Merethic Year, you could say removing mortal man from the mythic is their ultimate goal.

Second question, the elves see the Dunmer as padomaic heretics, probably of impure blood since the Dunmer have been breeding around, and probably don't have the perfect facial features and breeding that the Altmer try to imbody. The Altmer might venture a temporary alliance with them, which I doubt they'd be willing to agree with, and vice versa, but there is literally no hope of permanent cooperation between them.
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Red Sauce
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:32 pm

The Altmer aren't conquering for racial superiority, they're conquering for the superiority of their species.

...

What do you think racial superiority is? 'My race is this, your race is this, therefore I am better than you and deserve to have power over you.' They already think they are superior to everyone else, the whole war is them trying to make it a literal fact.

No one gives the homo sapiens [censored] for wiping out the neanderthals.


That's not a good comparison: humans and neanderthals where competing for limited resources in a limited environment. Environment and their own limited intelligence contributed just as much humans. Thalmor do genocide against other Altmer and Bosmer for religious reasons.

They do not see what they are doing as genocide, they are releasing spirits into the dreamsleeve which will go on to become gods when they achieve their goals. They do things that are not nice, but for a noble cause. The end justifies the means, as long as there is something to justify the end.


Since they don't see it as genocide, so it's alright? They hate Men. They see them as an abomination, something that shouldn't be. That's not noble, that's racist.

If you think getting removed from Mundus will let you ascend into heaven and be a god, go right ahead. That's fine. What I have a problem with is that don't keep that belief to themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I don't give Imperials, ancient Cyrodiilians, or Nords a pass for what they did or want to do. In their own ways, they have their evil nutcases too (see what the Blades think of all dragons. They may have a point if what Parrthonax said about dragons is true, but its still extreme- hatred will do that)

But that doesn't excuse what the are doing. Just because its for a 'good cause' or 'others have done it' does not excuse what they are doing.

Genocide is genocide- call it what it is.
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x a million...
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:37 am

...

What do you think racial superiority is? 'My race is this, your race is this, therefore I am better than you and deserve to have power over you.' They already think they are superior to everyone else, the whole war is them trying to make it a literal fact.



That's not a good comparison: humans and neanderthals where competing for limited resources in a limited environment. Environment and their own limited intelligence contributed just as much humans. Thalmor do genocide against other Altmer and Bosmer for religious reasons.


Just like the Nazi party, who also genocided fantasy elves for religious reasons. The bastards.
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Milad Hajipour
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:08 am

Mara, preserve us!
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Adrian Powers
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:25 am

Just like the Nazi party, who also genocided fantasy elves for religious reasons. The bastards.


http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/205/b/f/Foghorn_Leghorn_by_Sonicamy24.jpg

OP asked what was up with the Thalmor and their motivations/beliefs. I and others have made a valid real life comparison to help OP understand and answer his question.

Simple, yeah?
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Mark Hepworth
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:27 pm

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/205/b/f/Foghorn_Leghorn_by_Sonicamy24.jpg

OP asked what was up with the Thalmor and their motivations/beliefs. I and others have made a valid real life comparison to help OP understand and answer his question.

Simple, yeah?


I'm sorry but it's not a valid real life comparison.

You use two acts to compare Nazi Germany to Thalmor Alinor. Namely genocide and conquest in the name of racial superiority. Using only two points doesn't make a very good comparison. Especially since genocide and conquest for ethnic reasons are rather common. The Balkan war, Rwanda, Darfur, just to name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history.

Now I'm not going to do a point by point comparison of the Thalmor and the Nazi party but suffices to say that their origins, motivations and goals are rather different.

But what is really hurting any further discussion is that comparing the Thalmor to the Nazi party, essentially equating them to absolute evil, this discussion will be stuck in arguing over that comparison rather then discussing what the Thalmor are about.

Way to go man.
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Allison C
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:14 pm

Haven't people yet learned to not bring up Nazis on the internet? Godwin is disappointed.
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Lizzie
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:53 pm

If you cannot talk about race & religion within a fantasy context in a mature and reasonable way, please, do not read my post.

But while we're talking about religiously & racially motivated violence (because that is a thing the Altmer are doing, regrettably), I just want to bring up something about the nature of science fiction and fantasy. Religious and racial violence are morally wrong because they're factually wrong. No matter what your religious outlook is, you can agree that god doesn't want you to kill anyone, and we all know that race is just a fallacy. Sometimes, there are real justifications for violence, like, say, preventing the spread of a deadly bioweapon in our atmosphere. Stopping the spread of a religion, or the spread of interracial marriage, on the other hand, doesn't justify anything, because those are just factually stupid goals in our world. Similarly, racism in general is wrong because it's wrong. Whose better at being a systems anolyst? A white guy, a black guy, an Asian guy, a Native American / Inuit guy, or a member of the Pacific Aboriginal Peoples? The answer is: whoever is most qualified based on education and past experience. I gave you no relevant information.

Things are different in fantasy. Who's better at being an archer? Bosmer, Altmer, Orsimer, Khajiit, Dunmer, Argonian, Nord, Imperial, Breton, or Ragada? Bosmer. Who's better at being heavy infantry? Orsimer and Nord (iirc). Whose better at living? Altmer. Altmer can easily live for eight times as long as Orsimer. Orsimer die eight times as much as Altmer. In Tamriel, race isn't a fallacy. On Nirn, race actually exists in a meaningful way that cannot simply be statistically made to disappear by controlling for other factors. Now, this doesn't justify any genocides they may attempt to perpetrate, this isn't Forgotten Realms with all its "Always Chaotic Evil" races, but I think it's an important little bit of context to consider when dealing with all the racism in TES. Why do Altmer feel superior to all the other races? Probably because they are superior to other races in some very significant ways (though of course, in other ways, other races are superior to them. Nobody blows stuff up like a Ragada).

Religion is where you really need to throw away conventional thought, because religion in TES is a proven fact. People have explored "heaven" and battled "hell". They get directly blessed by "gods" and "demons." Religion isn't just used as an excuse to wage war. The Thalmor, Stormcloaks, and many other groups wage war for very real religious reasons. For example: the war over Talos that's going on right now is about the fate of a very powerful being who historically sides with one group of people. It has more in common with attempts to prevent nations from building nuclear weapons than it does with the crusades.

Also, the Thalmor don't want to kill mankind. They want to make being a man impossible. These are very, very different things. One involves taking people's lives away. The other is all about granting the souls of mankind (and elvenkind) immortality and freedom from the mundus. This isn't just some wacko suicide cult thing either. The Thalmor have good reason to believe that it is practical and possible.
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WTW
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:35 pm

Don't count the Dunmer with the Thalmor. The Dunmer split away from the Altmer long ago.
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Alyce Argabright
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:14 pm

If you cannot talk about race & religion within a fantasy context in a mature and reasonable way, please, do not read my post.

But while we're talking about religiously & racially motivated violence (because that is a thing the Altmer are doing, regrettably), I just want to bring up something about the nature of science fiction and fantasy. Religious and racial violence are morally wrong because they're factually wrong. No matter what your religious outlook is, you can agree that god doesn't want you to kill anyone, and we all know that race is just a fallacy. Sometimes, there are real justifications for violence, like, say, preventing the spread of a deadly bioweapon in our atmosphere. Stopping the spread of a religion, or the spread of interracial marriage, on the other hand, doesn't justify anything, because those are just factually stupid goals in our world. Similarly, racism in general is wrong because it's wrong. Whose better at being a systems anolyst? A white guy, a black guy, an Asian guy, a Native American / Inuit guy, or a member of the Pacific Aboriginal Peoples? The answer is: whoever is most qualified based on education and past experience. I gave you no relevant information.

Things are different in fantasy. Who's better at being an archer? Bosmer, Altmer, Orsimer, Khajiit, Dunmer, Argonian, Nord, Imperial, Breton, or Ragada? Bosmer. Who's better at being heavy infantry? Orsimer and Nord (iirc). Whose better at living? Altmer. Altmer can easily live for eight times as long as Orsimer. Orsimer die eight times as much as Altmer. In Tamriel, race isn't a fallacy. On Nirn, race actually exists in a meaningful way that cannot simply be statistically made to disappear by controlling for other factors. Now, this doesn't justify any genocides they may attempt to perpetrate, this isn't Forgotten Realms with all its "Always Chaotic Evil" races, but I think it's an important little bit of context to consider when dealing with all the racism in TES. Why do Altmer feel superior to all the other races? Probably because they are superior to other races in some very significant ways (though of course, in other ways, other races are superior to them. Nobody blows stuff up like a Ragada).

Religion is where you really need to throw away conventional thought, because religion in TES is a proven fact. People have explored "heaven" and battled "hell". They get directly blessed by "gods" and "demons." Religion isn't just used as an excuse to wage war. The Thalmor, Stormcloaks, and many other groups wage war for very real religious reasons. For example: the war over Talos that's going on right now is about the fate of a very powerful being who historically sides with one group of people. It has more in common with attempts to prevent nations from building nuclear weapons than it does with the crusades.

Also, the Thalmor don't want to kill mankind. They want to make being a man impossible. These are very, very different things. One involves taking people's lives away. The other is all about granting the souls of mankind (and elvenkind) immortality and freedom from the mundus. This isn't just some wacko suicide cult thing either. The Thalmor have good reason to believe that it is practical and possible.


I think I will save this post for future reference when these threads crop up again with your permission, it is the most exhaustive and comprehensive exposition of the fallacies of the juvenile knee-jerk anti-thalmor rhetoric I've seen to date. Thanks for this post.
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Blackdrak
 
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Post » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:19 am

Eh, so who is the righteous side?
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David Chambers
 
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