So, i was thinking...

If the Stormcloaks would drive out the Empire, and the Thalmor would invade Skyrim as a response, would there actually be a problem?

I mean, we all know about Ysgramor and the five hundred companions who drove out the Snow Elves and conquered all of Skyrim.

The Nords are brave warriors who are well known with the bad weather and have been living in Skyrim all their lives. (After Atmora of course)

So if the Thalmor invaded Skyrim, wouldn't the Nords just kick their asses and expand their territory? (maybe even into Cyrodiil)

The Thalmor know little of Skyrim, and are not familiar with the weather, terrain.

The Nords are also probably better in fighting.

So what happened to those strong and brave Nords?

For some reason everyone is afraid that they could actually lose Skyrim. I think that the Nords could easy defend themselves from an invasion.

I also would like to point out that the Thalmor would probably use light armor (Elven armor) while the Nords would use heavy armor (steel n' stuff).

First, welcome to the forums.

It wouldn't be much of a problem for the Thalmor. If you play your game long enough, then you will eventually see encounters between Thalmor and Stormcloaks. The Thalmor win, every time. Further, the province is weakened by the Civil War, dragon attacks (which continue after the Main Quest) and Vampire attacks. An independent Skyrim would be relatively easy prey for the Thalmor lead Aldmeri Dominion.

You say the Thalmor know little of Skyrim, that is wrong. As the Empire had open borders within its provinces, members of any race could be found in any given province. Road layout, landscape and location of forts which are old, etcetera would be information that would have been readily available by travel throughout the Septim Empire. While the Septims are gone, one would be hard pressed to find much change in geography or location of points of interest since Martin made his sacrifice.

The Thalmor do use light armor. The Stormcloaks use light armor. The Thalmor also use magic which gives them an edge. Your optimism regarding Nord ability to resist the Thalmor on their own is unwarranted.

For starters, the Thalmor would have to march through Cyrodiil to reach Skyrim, and if anything else the Imperials will not stand and let the Thalmor ravage their lands once again. I also imagine Ulfric would quickly martial together a coalition of allies that he trusts to stand against the Thalmor.

I predict the Nords would wage guerrilla warfare, basically drag the war out as long as possible. Make it not worth it for the Thalmor to continue fighting. From what I've seen in the game, they'll rather fight down to the last Nordic child than surrender an inch of Skyrim to the elves. Of that, Ulfric would ensure.

Could Skyrim beat the Thalmor? Possibly, but it'll help if she got allies like Hammerfell to assist. One thing for sure though, and to quote Count Hassildor, "[The Thalmor] will know [they] were in a fight if they [try to take Skyrim]".

The Stormcloaks and the Legion in Skyrim are both weakened after their civil war.

Whoever's left, the Thalmor will kill off.

During the "Great War," amphibious assault was one of the tactics (supposedly) used.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War


If this is true and they still have this capability, then routing their troops through Cyrodiil would not be a requirement for invasion of Skyrim.

I wouldn't be too sure of that. The Thalmor are already free movement within the Empire as part of the WGC. Then there is the fact that the Stormcloaks just got done violently expelling the Imperials from from Skyrim. It would be VERY tempting to say, "They demonstrated very clearly that they no longer wanted to be part of the Empire. Now let them suffer the consequences of that decision." And as has been mentioned, amphibious assault is very much an option.

Hammerfell's southern coast is a relatively short and direct boat ride from Alinor or Valenwood. Skyrim is literally on the other side of Tamriel. To get there from the Dominion you either have to sail around Hammerfell and High Rock, or Black Marsh and Morrowind. If the Dominion is dumb enough to go all the way to fight Skyrim without dealing with the more pressing matter of the bulk of the Imperial Legion at their doorstep, they'll put themselves in a very disadvantageous position: in one of the most inhospitable regions of Tamriel full of angry Dominion-hating Nords, their lifelines reliant on ships sailing all the way around Tamriel through leagues of hostile waters, all while the Imperial Legion can use the distraction to exact revenge on the Dominion and invade Valenwood. If they try to march through Cyrodiil, they'll be even more vulnerable to the Empire backstabbing them.

It'd also be very tempting for the Empire to exact some needed payback on the Aldmeri Dominion for that whole "Great War" business while their armies are bogged down elsewhere.

I find it difficult to believe that the Thalmor can en masse troops to Skyrim efficiently, just short of trying to cross Cyrodiil through Pale Pass (Which sounds like a lovely endeavor in of itself). Sailing an armada through what is apprently the hostile waters of Hammerfell might accidentally provoke the Ra'ga, and unless the Thalmor have ports and actual holdings in Blackmarsh, going all the other way around doesn't seem that bright to me either. There's also the issue that despite the Dominion being fairly well off compared to what happened in Cyrodiil, straining their already dwindled forces hunting down Talos worshipers to the point that Elenwen has to directly point out that factoid says to me that they're currently trying to talk a big game, but with little to show for it. Hilariously, it seems to have worked on the community pretty well.

You bring up the sail around Hammerfell and High Rock like it is a big deal. If merchant ships can do it, then warships can do it. We have no evidence that either province (Hammerfell or High Rock) currently possesses naval warfare capabilities nor whether they would attempt to engage Dominion ships if they do. Further, the concept of territorial waters can come into play and Dominion vessels would only need to stay outside of those territorial waters to avoid potential conflict with either of those two provinces.

We also don't know the full capabilities at their disposal. They do have three provinces to call on to wage war. You are correct that they do need to pay heed to their border with Cyrodiil, but they do have three provinces to call on. So defending that border while having sufficient forces to attack Skyrim is not out of the question.


Hostile waters? LOL They didn't appear to encounter much hostility when they allegedly landed troops on Hammerfells southern coast. Where were the alleged Red Guard warships then? Do they even have any in the current timeframe? (We don't know.) Likewise High Rock, we simply don't know the naval capabilities of any of the provinces outside of Skyrim which only has merchant ships in the current time-frame of our game.

A merchant ship is not the same as a giant navy bent on invasion. What would make the other provinces react more: a few merchant ships or a navy numbering in the hundreds, if not thousands, of ships bearing closer and closer to Skyrim?


Do we know how much money, soldiers, and supplies they have? How much they would need to march across Cyrodiil/sail around High Rock/Hammerfell or Morrowind/Black Marsh? How much of it is fact? How much of it is the usual 'we are a superior, perfect race' shtick? They're not about to let anyone discover any weakness within the Thalmor government/army.

Let's now look at their options. How do they invade Skyrim?

March through Cyrodiil- Have fun fighting your way to Skyrim, guys! I'm sure you'll still have plenty of men, supplies, and strength to take on the whole of Skyrim once you get there.

Sail around Hammerfell/High Rock- Have fun dealing with Redguards and Bretons who are not happy with you and will send out pirates and other mercs to trouble you.

Sail around Morrowind/Black Marsh- Woah! You mean you want to risk angering the Argonians? The race that can swim and breathe water? The race that fought so dementedly hard against the Daedra 200 years ago where, to put it simply, the Daedra were the ones being invaded and had to close their own gates?

If I were the Thalmor seeking to wage war on Skyrim, the lesser of all three really bad decisions seem to be going around Hammerfell/High Rock. And that is assuming I had all the men, money, and supplies to take on Skyrim.

Remember, the Thalmor are also in a pinch as well. While they posture and act tough, while they act like the next big war is coming, they aren't going to start a war if they're not ready for it yet. Any wrong move on their part could, theoretically, break the uneasy peace and start up the war earlier than anticipated.

Merchant trade routes are one thing. Maintaining steady supply lines in times of war across that same considerable distance is another, that'd take enormous resources, especially considering there are no truly friendly ports along the way. Furthermore, Skyrim is a remote province with an inhospitable climate and a very anti-Dominion population: sending any force with a chance in Oblivion of actually holding their own against Skyrim's forces would leave them vulnerable to a counter-invasion by the combined forces of at least Cyrodiil, High Rock, and Orsinium, especially if the Dominion has to worry about the Imperial navy and whatever pirates or reavers are roaming the waters that they must sail through to keep their Skyrim invasion supplied..



Pirates in the Iliac Bay were strong enough to take Wayrest in 4E 188. Unless the Imperial Navy wiped them out, the Dominion could face some serious problems if they set up supply lines through there.

Exactly. If I were waging a war on Skyrim, I'd have to worry about...

(1) Figuring out how to beat the Nords in their own turf, having to deal with the unfamiliar, inhospitable landscape.

(2) Figuring out how to keep my supply routes open because I can guarantee you that the other provinces aren't going to just sit there and let me continue to send supplies to the army I have in Skyrim.

(3) Figuring out how to protect my territories within my Dominion. When I'm busy trying to beat the Nords in Skyrim, what's going to stop my enemies from retaking Valenwood or Elswyr? Hell, what would stop dissenters within the Dominion from attempting an uprising?

(4) Figuring out how to keep food going to feed people both in the Dominion and my army in Skyrim.

(5) Figuring out the finances. This is crucial, it costs to run a war. Unless the Thalmor didn't mind bankrupting the Dominion, would it be worth spending it on a war that would likely last years?

(6) Figuring out what the best way to even GET to Skyrim without having to fight a protracted naval/land war with the other provinces. As said before, none of the provinces, not even Cyrodiil, would simply sit there and let my army reach Skyrim if they could help it.

There's all sorts of logistics involved here, and the Thalmor has their work cut out for them.

Can't the Dominion walk right through Cyrodiil towards a Stormcloak dominated Skyrim?

Why would the even more weakened ,emperorless Cyrodiil, oppose them and risk a war for rebel Skyrim?
They're bordered by two Thalmor provinces as it is, and no allies.

Sure, if they felt like fighting the Imperial Legion the whole way up there. Remember, the moment they step foot into Cyrodiil with their army, it immediately renders the White-Gold Concordant null and void which means Cyrodiil can just forget all pretenses and go to war against the Thalmor. The only reason the Thalmor would march their army up through enemy territory would be if they were convinced that Cyrodiil had no means of defending itself.

That's not to mention that, unlike Cyrodiil, Skyrim would still have allies. No doubt Hammerfell would be the first to martial up a Redguard army and navy to assist the Nords to thwart the Thalmor invasion. High Rock would likely be pressured by both Hammerfell and Skyrim to assist because what else could they do? Sit there with a weak empire while the Thalmor marches perilously close to their border?

Well, we don't know exactly what the Concordant stipulates towards Thalmor forces (unless there was some dialogue I missed), but it seems reasonable to think that it distinguishes from small cadres of Thalmor agents like what we saw in Skyrim, and a full-out invasion force. And even if it didn't, if I was the Empire, I would take this as a chance to surround the Thalmor and crush their army, Concordant be damned.

How strong is the Legion at this point? Can they go against the Thalmor evenly?

The Thalmor don't need to invade Skyrim, because the Nords can't assault Alinor. The Altmer navy is the best in Tamriel, and the Nords have to pass through the Sea of Ghosts to actually get to them.

They could, but it would leave them vulnerable to getting backstabbed if/when the Empire cuts them off. At that point they'd be isolated, surrounded on all fronts, and with no hope of escape, and like that, the Dominion has lost a large chunk of its forces.

Stormcloak Skyrim doesn't have any allies as of yet. Hypothetical, potential allies, perhaps (although considering how hated the Dominion is, the same could be said for Cyrodiil, even in light of past grievances), but so far I've not heard of any alliances made with other nations.

Given how much people fussed at the mere prospect of Uriel Septim VII dying without a legitimate heir back when he and his heirs were alive, not to mention what we've seen of Cyrodiil's history, chances are a new Emperor will promptly be crowned if the current one is assassinated. If not, a Potentate or Regent will be appointed, and things will continue in Cyrodiil as usual. And if they do go to war, it would not be for rebel Skyrim, but rather for the fact that it's heavily implied that those in Cyrodiil believe another war with the Dominion is on the horizon, and with the Dominion placing itself into a strategically unsound and disadvantageous position by attacking Skyrim without first dealing with more pressing concerns, the prospect of ensuring the inevitable war is waged on advantageous terms may be too good for the Empire, which would still have Cyrodiil, High Rock, and Orsinium, to pass up.

sorry sir, Military Politics do not work that way,

the Dominion will petition the Elder Council to allow forces to march through Cyrodiil into Skyrim, just like how Spain petitioned France to allow their forces to march through France during the various Anglo-spanish wars, and because of frances rough History with England they allowed it..

what do you really think the Empire would say to the Dominion in this Situation? Skyrim just said the big "F-U" to the Empire, killed one of their top Generals, the Emperor was killed in Skyrim under mysterious situations (which I can guarantee you most of the Citizens outside Skyrim would blame Stormcloaks).. you really think the empire would then say "no, we are not going to let you attack the lands that just made us their enemies and screwed the rest of the empire so they could be by themselves"?
no because that would put more strain on the already unstable peace and the Dominion may say "okay then. screw the WGC, wars back on boys!" before the Empire is in a position where they are ready for such a conflict again

the Empire would allow the Dominions petition, allow their forces to march through Cyrodiil on their way to Skyrim (just like france let the Spanish march their forces and use their ports during some of the Anglo-spanish Wars), and possibly even say "hey dominion, since the now Independent Skyrim decided they were our Enemies, if you need supply's, we'll give you a good price". plus a Naval Invasion from the northern coast would allow them to put a weakened Skyrim in a situation where they are fighting a two front war (which anyone who has taken a Military History course knows is the most Difficult conflict to fight, a weakened Skyrim would be conquered before they could get a messenger from Solitude to Riften and back if forced to fight a two front war)

a Skyrim under Stormcloak Victory has far less man Power and military resources than a united Cyrodiil + Highrock + Skyrim under Imperial Victory.. and since an Independent Skyrim is not protected by the WGC, they are easy pickings since they may have won the CW, but they have been extremely weakened as a result and made two powerful enemies in the process.. Dominion would overpower them without breaking a swet..


the Redguards never had a particularly strong bond with the Nords culture-wise, so saying "Hammerfell would come help" is not necessarily true, they would have just enough reason not to help as they would to help, political Alliances and Military aid is based off far more than "their enemy is our enemy", and Highrock would not come to Skyrims help because they are still part of the Empire, who Skyrim just declared their enemies by Seceding..


like I have said, a Stormcloak Victory is a very weak Skyrim because of all the Infighting, and has no allies, but is the Enemy of both the Empire and the Dominion.. they would be stuck, hiding in the corner of their homes praying for help as their lands are pillaged by a force moving like a plague of locusts..

Thalmor would never make it past the Redguard's navy to die horribly to the best sailors in the world, the Nords.

IF they managed to make it through Cyrodiil on foot they'd never survive the mountains.

does not matter how good of sailors the nords are when they are outnumbered 10 to 1, and the mountains would not pose a problem if they were outfitted properly

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys! I like this forum already!

But didn't the Nords already took care of the Snow Elves? Why can't they fight the Thalmor like they fought them.

I don't think a lot has changed with the Nords since Ysgramor, they are still fighters.

And of course, if the Thalmor would attack Skyrim i think other races would help the Nords out. (What's left of the Empire, Hammerfell...)

1. Would this be the same Redguard navy that was no where to be found when their Southern coast was invaded? There is no evidence that that Hammerfell currently has a navy. Skyrim only has merchant ships.

2. That is wishful thinking. Three Justicars can chase off a dragon. They can defend themselves.

There's no evidence that the Thalmor have an army. Period. Their entire invasory force was defeated completely in the Battle of Red Ring.

Are you playing the same game? 100's or 1000's of ships would not be needed. Skyrim is not that densely populated. We see a relatively minor incursion of Thalmor troops on Dunmer territory in "Dragonborn". It wouldn't take many troops to overrun a town like Dawnstar for example. How many they would need would for Skyrim would depend on intent. Subjugating the province would take more manpower than it would to simply exterminate any advlt not from a Dominion member state.

Another potential permutation would be for them to first take Cyrodiil. Then they could go after Skyrim at their leisure. If we assume a Stormcloak victory, Cyrodiil is cut-off from any Tamriel based back-up. It is unlikely they could withstand the might of three provinces thrown at them. If Cyrodiil falls, then access to Skyrim via land route would be secure.

Right now, we don't know whether or not the Redguards or the Bretons have military naval capabilities. Any source work cited for same would be out-of-date. You are factoring that into your calculation, but we don't know whether they even exist or what role they would play if they did.

You seem to be arguing that any attempt has complications. I agree, but that is not to say it couldn't done. Can you acknowledge that much?

As far as what you say about Black Marsh that is not from an in-game source, so I don't accept it.


Now you are being disingenuous.