http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/elsweyr.shtml, "a Mane can be born only under a rare alignment of Masser and Secunda, when a third moon appears in the sky." What I want to know is, is there any evidence of this third moon besides the legend? If Masser and Secunda are each half of Lorkhan's 'flesh-divinity', how can a third moon exist?

I would think it's just a legend with no evidence like so many urban legends in the real world, except the fact that Manes are born is proof of the legend's validity. The moons do align on the night a Mane is born, and the Khajiit wouldn't just make up the third moon, would they? Or maybe it's possible the alignment creates the illusion of a third moon?

Discuss.

I am pretty sure the alignment creates the illusion that there is a third moon. I don't know if they actually beleive its a third moon or if they are being metaphorical, although it is probably the later.

Perhaps it has an oblong orbit, like that of a comet. Or perhaps it phases into existence much, much more rarely than Masser or Secunda.

Maybe you need to be high on moonsugar to see it, which means only the khajiits acknowledge it.

what if it has an irregular orbit and only shows itself during a certain time? Such as Niburu "planet X" here in the "real" world?

The only other moon I'm aware of is the Necromancer's Moon, which is the Worm God's plane[t] (from my understanding). That doesn't really fit very well, so I would agree that perhaps this is a different moon that infrequently passes by Nirn (yet is part of the Lunar Lattice). The question I have is: does this moon only appear at set intervals, or will it appear when a new Mane is needed (such as if the current Mane dies)?

Think about it.

If I interpret this correctly, it makes sense. Given the significance and rarity of manes and the Khajiit's dependence on Azurah.

Would you please share your enlightenment? I've got a sinus infection and my thinking is rather fuzzy today.

I think he means that the third moon is Azura herself? I myself am not sure.

That was my understanding of it. She bound the Khajiit to the Lunar Lattice. Her appearance in the sky during a Khajiit's birth would no doubt create something of great importance.

Hmm. So, from my understanding of some "cliffnotes" a member posted regarding events in the first TES Novel, the Mane has been assassinated. It's been 40 years since Vivec stuffed his Muatra down Azura's throat - does anyone know if she's got enough power to manifest in the Mundus and cause another Mane to be born?

You know, about the Words of Clan Mother Whatsherface, what are the three secrets? I never quite understood that.

It might not be so literal, given the significance of astronomy (if you will forgive me for being too broad) in the Lunar Lattice, it's possible that the birth of a Mane is dependent on a certain state of Azura's Star. While there is no real orbit or science in the matter, it's not impossible that a Mane is born when Azura's star is yea bright, or in that spot of the sky right there. Whether this is based on astronomy through a linear period of time, or whether it's more directly connected to Azura and her current state of power, mood, bowel movement, et cetera. is hard to say. But that's just another possibility.

As for the three secrets, I've not a clue. I shall read it!

From the top of my head:

1: How to pass the Lunar Lattice, eg the liminal Barrier. Notice that Azura entered Nirn. Y'ffre told everybody so the other Aedra then and mortals now can escape. Lorkhan and the other Daedra (presumably) however didn't get to hear the secret so they're respectively trapped in and outside.

2. Don't know.

3. The Khajiit are bound to the Lunar Lattice as defenders of Nirn. They consume Moonsugar to get high (literally) and put the moons back in place. As moon sugar is distilled moonlight, distilled magic, the whole seems to act quite like a Tower. The secret seems to be related to setting this up.

So is Azura the only Daedra that can enter Nirn? I seem to recall a four-armed ugly stomping around in TESIV... or was Dagon's manifestation different? Did Dagon enter through a 'back door' in the Barrier by weakening the Dragon Fires and Gold Tower (along with the destruction of the Red Mountain tower)? But Azura knows how to bypass this? Is that why she had the power to actually change the Chimer to Dunmer? Does Vivec resent that she knows the secret? I.e., is that part of why he's pissed at her?

Yes.



Yes.


One wonders how you overlooked the fact that she created an entire prophecy centered around his upheaval/destruction and went for an idea that has no sort of basis in any text in lore. :huh:

Well I'm content knowing it's Azura, thanks for answering guys.

But since there's a discussion going on I guess I'll leave this open.

Oops. Are you talking about manipulating the Dreamsleeve? I mean, the way it normally operates, wouldn't Nerevar's soul get re-used any way? Seems like she knew this, and created a "prophecy" that was more of "I know this is gonna happen 'cause I know how the spirit-world works" sort of thing? Eventually (after failed Incarnates) someone (the PC in TESIII) managed to do everything right. The right soul in the right body in the right place at the right time. Admittedly, the prophecy becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy; without it telling people what to do, the Nerevar-Incarnate probably would lead a normal life and be none the wiser of his/her soul's previous owner. I guess that could be why Vivec was angry. But he has to know that even if there was no prophecy, Dagoth Ur would overcome the Tribunal (what with them losing the tools and all). In fact, without the Nerevarine to end the threat for good, the Tribunal would fail and be completely disgraced in front of all of Nirn (as opposed to Almalexia and Sotha Sil being killed out of site). The bad part is the destruction of the Red Mountain tower, but what alternative was there?

Even if that idea is true, the prophecy provides the volition these reincarnations need to even go about the removal/destruction of the Tribunal. They wouldn't just do it for no reason.

True. But that's not the primary role of the Nerevarine, according to the prophecy. True, it might be an ulterior motive, but I would contend that the Nerevarine's purpose was also directed toward saving Vvardenfell from Dagoth Ur and the Blight. However, that meant destroying the root of the whole mess: Lorkhan's Heart. After the Tribunal lost the tools, there really wasn't that much alternative. I mean, look, the Tribunal didn't even keep trying to go after the Tools again to destroy Ur. Why? Surely the three of them had enough combined power to kick Ur's butt. Or, did the Tribunal want Ur there, to make them look even more heroic and godly and needed?

EDIT: wait, now I remember. Ur had bound himself the heart and the Tribunal loved their power too much to make the ultimate sacrifice and destroy the heart (and their power). They were selfish, and when the Nerevarine came and made the choice for them, Vivec/Alma were resentful (not sure about Sotha Sil). Really, no one is in the right, and only Azura's meddling wiped the slate clean (be it an intended or unintended consequence of the prophecy and her scheme).

You forget about Ur's Ash Vampire kin: the Tribunal weren't strong enough to get the tools back from Ur. Vivec wasn't really resentful about losing his godhood, though Ayem obviously was.

Alma went loco and, IMO, Sotha didn't care. Their argument could have lead to Sotha's demise.


Vehk didn't care: he told the Nevarine how to do it.

The Liminal Barrier or Lunar Lattice keeps Daedra out.

• Unless barrier is not sufficiently strong. For example the end of the Oblivion crisis.
  
• Unless Daedra are sumoned. For example temporary summons or long term summons of small Daedra or until 2920 the Princes.
  
• Unless barrier is pierced. For example Daedric gates, which might be used in long term summons.
  
• Unless extreme manifestation of a Daedric sphere occurs in Nirn. For example see the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga
  
• Unless it can be avoided by secret means. For example Azura.

Not implied, but mentioned for clarity.

• Innert materials are not Daedra and can enter.
  
• Enchanted items are not Daedra and can enter.
  
• Voices are not Daedra and can enter.

This covers all known exceptions. I'd rather just say that the Barrier keeps Daedra out and be done with it and discuss the exceptions when relevant as they're usually quite obvious.

Well by then, Vivec had CHIM, so losing the heart didn't threaten his power. So, if he's not angry that the whole Nerevarine mess destroyed the Heart, his only beef with Azura is that she changed the Chimer's appearance? And he was soooo angry that he did something rather horrible to her? Heck, she might have been able to stop or at least mitigate the impact from Lie Rock... but she couldn't 'cause Vivec had a hissy fit.

@Don't Forget This: At one point they did have the Tools. They'd go to Red Mountain and use them on the Heart to renew their powers. Then they lost the Tools. When the tools had been in their possession, they could have destroyed the heart.

@proweler: okay, thanks for the clarification!

No...she created a prophecy that was supposed to result in the Tribunal's demise. Ulterior purpose or not, it's still a part of the prophecy.

Shoving the manifestation of his dike into her mouth IS horrible (to some; not me), but you're making it seem as if he cut a hole in her throat and pissed in it or something; she's et'ada: she'll be fine.