Azura, Boethiah, Mephala seems to be the Daedra that the dunmer (chimer) mostly worshiped before almsivi, am I right?

How can theese be the known as "good daedra", and how come that they became subject for worship? Where they betrayd as good somehow to the Chimer people, or did they really do good deeds to them?

Thanks!

Here's my abridged version.


They are known as "Good Daedra" because they appeared before the Aldmer pilgrim known as Veloth and taught him New Ways of living. He founded a splinter sect in Aldmer society and led a mass Exodus to a new land later known as Resdayn and later still as Morrowind. Along the way, the three Good Daedra instructed and guided Veloth in how to properly arrange this new society, the Chimer.

The followers of Trinimac appeared and tried to stop the Exodus, but Boethiah tricked the god-king of this sect and ate him. He defecated the remains out as Malacath and the followers of Trinimac became the Orcs.

Finally the Chimer arrived in their home land. There's some other details about their dealings with Dwemer and Nords but that's not important when discussing the Good Daedra. In short, Boethiah, Mephala and Azura each taught the Chimer priests something useful about forming society. They taught them secrets of murder and intrigue, and how to build Houses and live in them (more like a clan or a tribe than a literal house.) among other secrets.

Eventually, the War of the First Council happened and three advisers to the Hortator or Warchief of the Chimer betrayed him and used a profane artifact to make themselves gods, effectively taking the place of the three Good Daedra in Chimeri worship. They claimed the Daedra had been their "Anticipations." Sotha Sil took Azura's spot, whereas Vivec took over Mephala's place and Almalexia took Boethia's. Azura became angry and cursed the Chimer, who then became Dunmer and whose skin and eyes changed.

Aha. Not really good deadra then, but more "their deadra". It's all about point of view, as allways. Thanks!

"They claimed the Daedra had been their "Anticipations." " - what does that mean? I'm sorry, english is not my 1:st language. And I've heard that expression before.

They came before the Almsivi. Like, the Dunmer believe they were the gods before the Almsivi.
Then Azura got replaced by Sotha Sil, Mephala by Vivec and Boethiah by Almalexia. Because they share the same traits.
EDIT: http://images.uesp.net//c/c4/Fishystick.jpg

It kinda means that they were the same thing, only before they were there.
Like the ancient Greek gods became the Roman gods, or like how you cannot have a god of love without a concept of love.

I think anticipation means something alike: awaiting arrival.

I see. Great.

Omg. Fishstick? To me? I love fishsticks!! Thanks! :laugh:

Doesn't mean that I'm a gay-fish though.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yjNbVpX0no

Yes, unfortunately you're a gay fish. But there's nothing wrong with that. The Buoyant Armigers practice the forbidden arts of spear biting in private, as Vivec taught them and as Mephala taught Veloth.

Can they teach me?
Those ordinators always seemed too austere..
But who knows, it may just mean they like a paddling?

What is their relation with Vivec anywho, are they ever called his brides or such?

The Buoyant Armigers are a separate order from the Ordinators.

Ordinators are from House Indoril and mostly guard holy Temple sites including the cities of the god-kings. They're often used as secret police to root our cultists and heretics of various stripes too. In recent years they've ran out of Vivec's control and there's corruption in their ranks. They're more closely alligned with Almalexia, the patron goddess of Indoril. Almost all of them wear Indoril armor including a helmet that resembles the face of Saint Olms. They are masters of a variety of war magicks as well as being proficient in maces and long swords. Think of them as crusaders of a sort. The ones stationed on Vvardenfell are considered a weakly and inferior breed. The elites are called High Ordinators and serve in Mournhold. The very best received private training from Almalexia, who personally blessed their armor and bodies with divine magic. These are called Her Hands and are the most terrible mortal warriors on Nirn. It is likely but not confirmed that she took them as lovers.

Buoyant Armigers mostly hail from House Redoran and are the personal special forces of Lord Vivec. They ultimately answer to him and him alone. The elites among their ranks wear expensive Glass and Daedric armor and were personally trained in both the arts of war and poetry by Lord Vivec himself. Part of their training involved secret rituals of lust, I suspect, as they're said by some sources (I believe MK once or twice) to be "Vivec's homosixual samurai." Since Vivec himself is a hermaphrodite in both a literal and metaphorical sense, this would apply to the male and female Buoyant Armigers. Their fighting style utilizes all the major strengths of the Dunmer. They train extensively with the bow, with destructive magicks and with short blades. At least one powerful dagger was personally crafted by Vivec. It is called Enamor and is held by his champion Salyn Sarethi.


The Ordinators are considered the grim and unpleasant of the two, with the Buoyant Armigers favoring poetry and contests of wit. They're both stationed at the Ghostgate as of the events of Morrowind.

Note that as each Order emulates one of the Tribunes, they through proxy emulate the Daedric Anticipation of that Tribune. The Ordinators are very much the paladin type heavy fighters you'd expect from a Boethiah cult whereas the Buoyant Armigers favor the stealth and deception associated with Mephala. Ironically it is the stalwart upfront Ordinators who ultimately are most susceptible to corruption and duplicity - just as Almalexia slowly loses her mind, so do her top generals engage in depraved and zealous acts. The Buoyant Armigers by comparison are benign and honorable in most instances.

Daedra are not constrained by 'good; and 'evil'

Good and Evil are points of view. In the Dunmer religion there are Good Daedra and Bad Daedra. That doesn't literally mean they're Good or Bad. It means the Dunmer consider them as such. Similarly they consider the Divines to be unreliable spirits unworthy of worship, even though they're portrayed in a positive light in Cyrodill.

Even in Imperial culture not all Daedra and their worshipers are considered bad. Some NPC or another comments that the followers of Azura don't seem to be evil at all.


Another interesting God that's treated very differently by different cultures is Lorkhan. He's almost universally despised by Elves but adored by Men. A notable exception is the Elf-God named Vivec, who holds Lorkhan in high regard and strives to emulate him. It's not clear if this is a teaching of Veloth or if the other two Tribunes also hold this opinion, or if it's unique to Vivec. The Dunmer priests don't seem to ever mention Lorkhan at all.

So.. there are hidden lover kind of austere and. mythical.. love relations going on there?
The Khajiit in me says: Miauw.

I shall certainly never look at an ordinator the same way again. Maybe I could wink at one and he could call me scum..

They didn't oppose the Tribunal directly (aside from the Nerevarine Prophesy, which was more about undoing things than actually destroying the Tribunal). Each of the three is considered an anticipation of one of the Tribunal.

Yes it's about a cultural viewpoint. Lorkhan is not a real part of the dunmer mythology, wich kind of started with the three "good" daedra. Vivec's p.o.v is different as hes soul is ... extended.

Yeah. The average Dunmer priest may be aware of who Lorkhan is supposed to be on some level but doesn't comment on him and may even consider him another untrustworthy spirit.

In Oblivion we find out that apparently Mehrunes Dagon thinks Lorkhan was another Daedra and Tamriel is the birth right of the Daedra. I'm not sure if that's a common ideology among the Princes of Oblivion or just one of his eccentricities. If the Good Daedra also hold this feeling it's possible some of that made it into the things they taught Veloth and his priests, and since Vivec was a pupil from the cult of Mephala in his youth we might assume on some level this influenced his ideology.

One might be tempted to make the argument that since Vivec became divine he gained the power to see all that is, ever was and ever will be and would for sure know the truth of what happened between Lorkhan and the et'Ada. While this is literally true, we have to remember that Vivec also shares some of the frailties and weaknesses of mortals. There's a term in human psychology called cognitive dissonance. Simply defined, people don't like logical inconsistencies in their own characters, but when confronted with a truth that challenges a pre held belief most people will initially do mental gymnastics to deny it or find a way to make it seem like it's not a contradiction. We see evidence time and again that this happens in Nirn as well as our own planet. Literally nobody but Vivec believes the Nerevarine if he/she mentions killing Almalexia because they find that idea threatening and alien. Likewise if Vivec was taught by his mentors that Lorkhan's actions constitute a gift rather than a burden, even if he found out different when he touched the Drum, he may have attempted to find a way to make it true in his own mind. He's a poet after all, and they hardly ever speak the full truth on anything.

"One might be tempted to make the argument that since Vivec became divine he gained the power to see all that is, ever was and ever will be and would for sure know the truth of what happened between Lorkhan and the et'Ada."

Well it is surely easier that way, isn't it? ^_^

Well he got he's divine power from the heart, and should at least be thankful. I wonder how aware the common priesthood is about the heart of Lorkhan, maybe I should just check the sources again.

They're not at all aware of it. That is a huge part of the main quest of Morrowind. A splinter group called the Dissident Priests wrote a book called "Progress of Truth" where they suspect the Tribunal gained their powers by tapping into a profane artifact under Red Mountain. These Priests and their writings are heavily persecuted to the extent the books are rounded up and destroyed or locked away, and the Priests are locked in the Ministry of Truth. Some of them managed to hide themselves in a stronghold along Azura's Coast.

If you asked an average Dunmer when and how the Tribunal became gods they'd either have no idea or tell you they earned their godhood through trials of wit, courage and derring-do. Quests against great monsters and villains, duels with Daedra princes, etc.

I suspect the dissonance lies not within Vivec's mind but in the history of Tamriel itself. There is no "truth of what happened." There are multiple myths and they're all true. The mental gymnastics come when trying to apply reason to contradictory events. This is why it is exceptionally appropriate that Vivec is a poet -- poets are comfortable with contradiction, and it was his acceptance of such in waking reality that allowed him to achieve what his fellow Triunes could not.

No, I doubt it. To the other princes, I bet the Cyrodiilic myth is correct in that they view Mundus as a giant laugh and a place to dike around in, save for Mehrunes Dagon. For him, I see the Seven Fights of Aldugguga has a much better perspective of why MD wants to destroy Mundus.

Don't you dare start thinking altmer ideas, or I'll split you like those hares in the other thread.

They may also view it as a nonsense question. They're gods, they've always been gods, that's all the commoner need know.

Perhaps for the very most poor and illiterate members of Dunmer society, but there are common books read by most Temple members which describe things like Walking Ways and such. Most Dunmer who are literate and historically aware obviously realize that ALMSIVI didn't always walk among them. Those particular Dunmer understand that the Anticipations occupied their place until their arrival, and that they either usurped them or were given their powers willingly.

It's a big part of the identity of the Tribunal that they were once mortals. That's what makes them different from the daedra, in the eyes of the dunmer people. While they probably don't consider most of the implications, I'd asume that most if not all of them know the basics: "We used to revere some daedra but they weren't all good, then the Tribunal came along and replaced them as better gods. Just don't ask me how. I'm just a simple muckfarmer. But, y'know, my grandpappy saw lord Vivec once, glorious as can be. So it's gotta be true."

By the way, notice how the relationship between Almsivi and it's Anticipants tend to get written of as politcal convenience? That doesn't really mesh well with the metaphysics of the world though does it? Even if it began as Temple politics, when you have enough dunmer believe that Sotha Sil and Azura are the same and yet not we get another perspective on the story (a perspective that excuses the absence of two usurped Anticipants and the apparent suicide-by-sibling of one of the Triunes).