Just wanted to chip in on this. According to (most of) the MSGO threads, http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1216870-relz-morrowind-overhaul-sounds-graphics/, the team is:So, no, it is not a one man show. Could it continue without Kingpix? I dunno. There do seem to be a number of mods on the Oblivion side that have survived the departure of their original creators though, so it's not unheard of.

As I understand things (and I'm in no way involved in the whole MSGO thing) Julianross did most of the ferreting around identifying potential mods and then the team would decide what to include. During (or after?) that decision making the team sought permissions from all the authors who did not give explicit consent within their released readmes. Those who didn't give it didn't have their mods included in the Overhaul.

First I remember hearing about it was pretty close to the main release, I believe a fair amount of discussion and early testing happened on the RPG Italia forum.

The Morrowind community has been supportive of his efforts, largely because of the team's active pursuit of permissions, their support of users (assisted by other forumites) and their good naturedness. I'd also say that the Overhaul's led to an increase in the number of people (and new people) visiting the Morrowind forums (could be a knock on from Skyrim, of course) which is a good thing.

It's the only compilation I can remember in my seven plus years of hanging around the Morrowind boards that didn't lead to a flame war and immense bad feeling.

Morrowind's different to Oblivion though. That whole part of the Overhaul is primarily aimed at eye and ear candy, something that Morrowind greatly needs almost 10 years after its release. I fired up vanilla Oblivion in November and still think the graphics stand up today. Yes, there are improvements that could be made (the faces, man, the faces) but it isn't in the same need of a wash and a brush up as Morrowind is.

The Overhaul team are working on a http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1211599-wipz-morrowind-overhaul-game-experience/ module now, but it's just at the stage of collecting mod ideas. You can already see from the first post that some mods have been excluded as the creators weren't happy with them being included.

I still think an "Official Community Beginner's Mod Pack Guide" would be better suited to both purposes. I'd fully support (as in, not just approve, but add in information where needed, etc) a guide that fully walks a new user through setting up a modded Oblivion with a set of recommended mods. I'm not talking a guide that says "1. Install Oblivion, 2. Install Mod A, 3. Install Mod B, etc". I'm thinking something that goes into extreme detail for each step (well, maybe not the Install Oblivion part), but it would be very specific, including screenshots for the steps, on every step that needs to be taken. Quite similar to alt3rn1ty's Wrye Bash pictoral guide, but maybe in more detail.

As for comparison to MSGO: I think da mage's idea was more of a starter pack for modding, to get beginners on their feet. But if it were to be successful, it might grow into something similar.

That's what I was trying to do here: http://tescosi.com/wiki/Oblivion:Complete_Installation_Guide_-_Part_2

The problem is that is easy to lose users when you go into too much detail. It's a lot to read, especially if you are trying to explain all the intricacies of mod makeup as you go. The easiest way for new users to follow would probably be a set of videos with a companion guide. That would give the most context and allow users to move at their own pace as well. New users' experience with Oblivion mods, computer games and computer period, can vastly differ. "A lot of detail" is relative...


--Tomlong75210

So what?

Two months ago I knew nothing about Oblvion modding, essentially knew nothing about modding at all, but you know what? I sat down and LEARNED. And I not only learned how to install mods, I learned how to work with them, how to make them (to an extent, still have a long way to go there!) how to manipulate meshes and textures, and just generally FIGURED THIS STUFF OUT.

If you just want to sit down and play, this isn't what you should be doing. Modding is not a "casual" endeavor, and if you aren't willing to put the time that it takes to learn, go play something else.

A community made Beginner's Guide plus Recommended Mods list would be a much more valuable tool to put effort into than a compilation.

Give a man a fish or teach a man to fish.... as they say.

Sorry DaMage, I'm not buying that a community compilation will do anything to reduce/stop others from stealing mods and making rogue compilations. Just won't happen. As for the learning curve of modding being steep? That's a matter of opinion. I didn't find it hard at all. If people choose to mod their game (ANY game) then it's their responsibility to know and understand what they are doing, in terms of load order, compatibility, troubleshooting. A compilation will not help them understand this.

Whoo! This is refreshing. Again I say, this, this, a thousand times, this.

If thats what could be agreed upon, then that would be great!

We just need more guidance one exsactly where a new player could start. A compilation of links and install instructions is just as good as a mod compilation pack. We do have quite a few lists, but they tend to focus on adding mods of a certain type to your game...not starting from scratch.

My guide's mod adding part starts from scratch, and almost all of the mods are of a different type. The guide needs screen shots though. And, I'd also like to have instructions for alternative body mods. I just went for simple in that category.



--Tomlong75210

I'm not a modder (yet, I'm learning though) but I don't actually want a compilation, because sure enough, it'd have stuff I don't want but can't or I'd want to add things but can't since it's too monolithic. I got bitten by that a few times when I played Fallout 3. Plus I'd rather know exactly what's in my game.

And sure enough, the compilation would fail on someones system, they won't know how to fix it and they'll complain not to the compiler, but to the modder who can't fix it.

What I would like to see is an overview on groups of mods which work well together. e.g. if you want a balanced world, list A of scaling, levelling, magic and combat mods is recommended while if you want a more stealth oriented world list B is better. If you want to play an http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1312501-the-way-of-the-artificer/, list C is good.

Tescosi looks like it'll be a good resource

Don't get me wrong, I think your site has a lot of good information, and covers the basics thoroughly, but I think for a true Beginner's Guide we'd need something that 1) Can be downloaded (and possibly printed), and 2) Covers every step possible - each step in updating Oblivion to the latest version, each step in installing OBMM, each step in installing Wrye Bash, etc.

It's a TON of information to cover, and most guides cover some of the steps, but skip over some that might seem trivial once you've gotten to know it, but may not be obvious to the new user. I'm thinking the "For Dummies..." style would actually work very well here. They usually lay out the information in very easy to follow steps, with the extra information off to the side. I'd think the "Why" information should be seperated from the "How" information (by whitespace, not moved, just easily skipped over if the user already understand that topic).

I'm not a writer. I'd love to write something like this up. I think I have enough knowledge to cover the basic install up to and including the "essential" mods of OBSE and the UOP. I'd be less comfortable as it proceeds from there though. Not to mention, I have my hands full already (Wrye Bash is never done ). Or a good space to host such a thing.

da mage, you are contradicting yourself. You specifically suggested a compilation pack, not a better resource for information. A better resource for information, including suggested quality/easy mods to start with, would definitely be to everyone's benefit. I'd support that. But not a "download, dump in Data, and play!" hand-holding sort of compilation. Those don't help the community, they hurt it.

A couple of posts have gone away as they were personal attacks. Let's not go there folks. Explain or discuss or debate in a respectful manner please.

Dragon32-

Thanks for clarification. Still my problem with MSGO is that since it installs it all for you and does not install a mod installer with it. The new user is stuck with just what it offers. It is not then an open door to installing more mods after the basics are done. To do that then you have to again face that steep learning curve.

Lojack & Tomlong-
I find it funny to say (because I'm a huge fan of Tomlong's work), but Lojack is right in a sense. Once a user knows exactly what they want they can go to a section of TESCosi and be blown away by the minute details. Until then it is still a maze.

Further I'd say that by being politically correct as you are Tomlong and not choosing sides in the BAIN/OBMM methods - it ends up potentially confusing new users who may then go about using both methods.

Yes, but the general opinion here, like you just said is that a compilation will hurt more then help. I did not come here to stamp my foot and go "we should do this!", on the opinions given (and I've read every post here) I changed my mind on the topic.

The whole point of this thread is discussing how ot make Oblivion mnods more accessable.....I thought a compilation was a good option, but obviously the more accepted idea is a 'for dummies' guide.

I started this to get the people here to dicsuss the topic, and it has worked.

That's why I suggested doing videos. It is a ton of information to cover. It's also true that I do not want to choose sides. If the community agreed on some of the major choices, the guide could be condensed somewhat. You'd still have to cover all the various out-of-the-box scenarios and operating systems. However we go about doing this, I would like to contribute to the write up as well. We could just make different versions of the guide for each scenario and the two main mod installation tools. It the guides only contained one method, that would still help.


--Tomlong75210

Personally, just to give my own preferences, I hate watching videos, particularly when learning something. I need the information presented in a format that I can dictate the pace of.

Same here, which is why I suggested videos with guides. However, particularly when it comes to first getting used to using various utilities, such as Bash and OBMM, it takes a lot more time to verbally guide a user to each target in the UI. Screen shots can provide almost all the context we will need, but, if the increase of video instructions/training online is any indicatore, there are definitely many people out there who like their instructions in video format.


--Tomlong75210


Edit: They are harder to update though... :L

Videos certainly are better for some people. I know a couple who have huge difficulty learning by reading but if you show them something they'll pick it up instantly.

The problem with this Mage is, sure, it gets discussed, sometimes quite heatedly, every other week, and then it goes away and nothing comes of it. Shame really.

There's a reason for that. What a lot of those demanding/expecting a compilation don't realize is that it is a lot of work. And for what? So some lazy folks don't have to read readmes? There's not a lot of people interested in doing that much work for such ingrates.

Tutorials and guides are substantially more manageable (though still being an awful lot of work), plus they are far more rewarding because you have a sense of teaching someone rather than just handing them something. That's why I hate the idea of compilations, but have put thousands of hours into the Wiki.

What we need here is similar to Pluto's http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1305729-mod-recommendations-for-new-players/ thread (http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1060141-mod-recommendations-for-new-players/) and that was almost 3 years ago.

The problem with that is, thread's have a tendency of becoming lost. And, more than that, new users who are not keen on searching the web for recommendations, probably are not searching this forum for threads (which I think often requires a bit more tact) either. We needed this list, database of lists and guides in a fixed location to which we can just give the newbies a link.


Happy gaming!
--Tomlong75210


Edit: extended

Yes, because ask-firsters are exactly the sort of user that really improves a modding community.

Yeah I know because most people doesn't read stickies, so threads like that has always a chance of being lost.

What I mean is to have a thread here for comments or suggestions and the latest updated information could be TES Cosi. It's just what kinda of thread that you have for the old TES IV:POSItive site 1,5 years ago, so a similar concept for da Mage idea might work.

Hmmm.....I really don't like compilations, not just because regardless of intent the compilation author gets credit for the actual mods, not even because they are a nightmare to keep up to date, but mostly because....

They pretty much void any other mods.

A compilation user's mod experience does not extend past what is offered in a compilation. Easy install and set up and they never go beyond that. What reason is there too, everything is done for them, at least as far as they are aware. But the reality is that these users are missing out on so much more. Because they are never encouraged to go out and look at the multitude of fantastic mods on offer, they are instead offered the easy way out. They miss out on what modding is about....customising your game to suit you. Finding the many hidden gems that just make your game that much more perfect. Never find out what modding is really all about and that it is so much worth the effort to learn. How hard is it really when the majority of mods are...

Extract files.
Drop folders onto the Data Files folder.

Yes there are mods more difficult to install, but the majority of mods are just that simple. But compilation users will never get that far, because if they aren't willing to put in the effort to learn the very simple basics of mod installation and conflicts, then they are missing out on soooo much good stuff and sooo much choice. I don't want to encourage that. It is not elitist to say that I learned it why can't others. I was anything but computer savvy and if I could learn it so can others...if they are willing to put in the effort, the rewards are so incredible. For me it led onto modding and now I can install or make pretty much anything. It was a process, but it was so worth it in the end and my modding experience extends far further then a few mods packaged in a compilation format. My overall gaming experience is so much richer, it would be nice if that was the case for others too, rather then a cop out of sorts.