It's not just that. A lot of people do not know how to search effectively. Not to mention, the search feature on this forum is very unobtrusive. It's nice once you've visited a few times and visit regularly, but when a new user comes to a forum for help, are they going to look for the search bar first or try to figure out how to post a question? Most of the newcomers I've assisted did not ask about a compilation pack download and seemed receptive enough to my "search first" request, but they have to learn and be told initially, which I think is fine...


Happy gaming!
--Tomlong75210

True for new members, but there is something that I cannot understand is why should we provide new members with information about everything around here.

Any member can and should PM a moderator about such thing, because a moderator has a role to help any member on this forums who don't know how to search or having a question about almost anything.

The moderators have a lot to do beyond answering the similar questions that many new comers to the forum share. It's not about what we should do, but, rather, what we can, are able to and want to do. No one has to answer any questions. But, I don't want this community to die, and I don't think ignoring newbies on the first visits to the forum would encourage them to join and continue to support what I want to be a thriving community. I guess there are people who have scoured the webs and setup a heavily modded setup sans questions and help from others, but I certainly was not one of those users and will not expect such feats of anyone else.


Happy gaming!
--Tomlong75210

I think you misunderstood me a little, because it was not my intention to do that. Of course we should help any new members here and provide information of what we know, but they need to learn how to search the forum sooner than later. What we should really do is to provide good recommendation of mods that most people around here knows by experience that are stable and guide them into a modded game. If do this we could also point out the importance of using both BOSS and Wrye Bash at the same time.

You're absolutely right about this community that we can't let it die that's for sure.

I discovered UESP then Dev's site. Installed all of FCOM and TOTO without asking a single question.

I only posted for the first time after it didn't all work as magically as I thought it should. Looking back I'm certain the install was correct - it was the hardware that was the issue (graphics card too wimpy).

I think this http://www.fliggerty.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=67486#p67486 is similar of what we're talking about here.

A wiki site has one important feature and that's you can use almost everything there (both pictures, videos? with a lot of links), so why not have both ways in a guide that new users can either read through or look at the pictures.

Like I said earlier I don't think Fliggerty wouldn't mind to have a community project like this hosted on http://www.fliggerty.com/phpBB3/index.php, because you all know by now of he has done for the Morrowind community and make http://mw.modhistory.com/ available for anyone.

This is not true. Actually the opposite is the case: the vast majority of authors were indeed interested in their work being a part of the compilation. Just look up the http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1216662-wipz-oblivion-evolution-a-next-generation-mod-compilation/page__hl__wipz%20oblivion%20evolution__st__0 I posted for mods marked with red color. I quit the project, because 1) there were many outstanding permissions from modders who have retired long time ago and 2) I felt that the community as a whole seemed uninterested to support this project to the extent I wished it would. The time hasn`t come yet. Nevertheless I got a lot of positive feedback from modders which would have contributed parts and from forum users too. You can speak for yourself, but don`t speak for everyone.

Slightly OT, but only slightly:

I spent a little while now to skim read the present stickies in the Mods forum, and they ALL most of them (expect for modder resources, advlt content and general info) could use more or less big makeovers. Half if not more of the info is outdated and the threads are in parts riddled with useless posts that got no answers. Some threads are locked, some are still open for posting. I think it's a mess, a decidedly unpleasant and mostly wasteful experience to read through these stickies. So I have compassion with any newbie who avoids them.

Would it be possible to clean up the stickies, in cooperation with the moderators? At least get rid of the most glaring useless posts and remove broken links and those things?

Or are all stickies Holy Cows that must never be reviewed, changed, edited, taken down for as long as the Earth keeps spinning?

What would be an acceptable way for the moderators, editors, authors and all to go about cleaning up the stickies? I'm really asking. To just let them rot as they are forever, is just a waste.

More on-topic...

The stickies being what they are, I am now more convinced than ever that Tomlong's Tescosi site could be/should be morphed into THE go-to site for mod users, especially newbies. And a subsection about recommended mods (and recommended combinations of mods) and whatever additional specific instructions (Lojack's ideas), videos, screenies etc. would be really helpful. Ideally, I would envision that our standard answer for any newbie asking about using mods always would be/could be "Go read around on Tescosi, then come back again."

I think stickie threads are like US laws - once in place they are never removed. On the other hand - maybe better to have 60% good info than none.

TESCosi is good, but very comprehensive. Nothing wrong with a modern Intro to mods/FAQ thread that then points to the best knowledge we have now.

I recall Leonardo was at one time working on an updated MODS FAQ. He got pretty far from what I recall. I'd lke to help with a new FAQ, but don't want to repeat what he has done if I can help it. I was waiting for the CK release of Skyrim to see how Steamworks is going to change things before I dove into any such writing.

Yeah, a Leonardo (the same?) has already chimed in here, I'm sure his FAQ you mention (I don't remember his work, but I'm away often from OB) can be re-used in Tescosi. Of course, any double work should be avoided as much as possible!

I don't see why the stickies couldn't be updated....we'd just need someone to right up all the infomation to replace it.....It would actually be better to start up a topic with the relevant infomation to replace a sticky, then if approved of (not missing anything) ask if it can replace a sticky....

That way moderators dont need to be involved unti lthe final version of the guide is written.

Here is what Leonardo2 was working on: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1181935-how-to-improve-the-oblivion-faq-thread-1

It is late where I am - near crash time - so I may post back later, but I wuld not structure it that way or the way it has been structured.

Actually I'd give more details about what a mod is and where to find the install. Like in http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1337139-installing-mods/.
Then warnings about what to be careful of.
Then the different kinds of mods.
Then the methods for installing (overview not indepth).
Then where to find them.

I'd also add sections on how to troubleshoot problems, make reports to mod authors, be tidy.

and links lots of links.

Just stayed up tonight drafting a training for work - head too much in that space - need to cool it down. More later.

Yes, Leonardo2 asked if it could be hosted on TESCOSI, which is fine by me. I have some more free time today with which I can get past the license-adding todo and start getting inviting some users to the site. I could work on that simultaneously, I guess. I'll just have to disable file uploads until then... Wait, never mind. I should not have to do that. I need to see what sort of user groups I have setup...


--Tomlong75210

I think creating a guide is a great thing but as I have learned over 20 years of helping people learn how to use computers no matter how much you try to teach a person not everyone is going to understand. Probably about 50% or so of the couple thousand people I have helped over the years either couldn't understand the concepts I was teaching or only got a small part of it but I still tried anyways and when I couldn't teach I set it up to be very simple for them. I did that because I didn't believe they should be without and also knew that most of those people had expertise in things that either I didn't know how to do or didn't have the capability of doing. I guess I shouldn't have done that then and those people I helped shouldn't have used their skills for anyone that couldn't do it themselves and then there wouldn't be anything done by anyone for anyone unless they were involved.

I know this is all being done for free but many of those people that would want something like a compilation would probably pay for it if they could and at least by doing it here they won't be as likely to get scammed by someone selling a mod compilation. I do most of my computer work for free but also get payed sometimes if the people have enough money so I know what it is like to put in thousands of hours of work and giving that work to people who don't know much or anything about what I do. If any of the mods that I have made since the day the Morrowind CS came out were in a decent condition then I would allow anyone to do whatever they want with them.

PS. Instead of a compilation comething like "Big World Setup" could be done which would allow anyone to install any mod they want easily and be up to date. This would work for everyone from people that don't even understand the concepts of installing a mod to experts that want a huge load order and everyone in between. Big World Setup lets you choose from several predetermine setups based on your expertise and what you want for you game and then allows you to optionally customize your install. It then downloads and auto-installs the mods you chose and sets it up for you. It updates it's list of mods and predetermined setups when ran and allows you to update the mods you have installed. It would also be easier to have this for Bethesda's games since it is far less complicated of a structure since in the Baldur's Gate games they have to use a special patch program to patch the mods into the game in order to get more then a few mods installed and they have to be in an even more specific load order then with Bethesda's games.

PPS. Unless it was something like BWS I wouldn't use any of this for myself since I know pretty much everything about modding and have been doing this since Morrowind came out. My next load order for Oblivion is going to be double my last one at around 600 mods so any compilation wouldn't even make a dent in the amount of work I would have to do. These posts are for all of the people that want mods but can't even understand the concepts needed to install them like all of the people I have helped over the years. Those people may not know how to install mods but it is likely they help you every day with the things they do know. An example is there is a person that is a gamer and has always wanted to try out mods for Oblivion but he didn't know the first thing about it and so hasen't been able to. That same person may work at a bank and could be the person who takes care of your banking or stocks food at your local grocery store so that person is actually helping you indirectly. Since you could say that he gets payed for doing that what if he volunteers at a park you frequent or volunteers at a hospital. This is just an example but there are millions of people out there that wouldn't even know the first thing about installing mods and who knows how many of those people are actually interested in mods so I think it is best to allow them some kind of access to them.

PPPS. If the memory problems I have keep getting worse I actually may need something like a compilation in order to keep playing with mods so I guess I do have a potential vested interest in something like this.

Unless the people you were talking to were mentally handicapped in some manner, or you were teaching exceptionally complicated material, "couldn't understand" (emphasis mine) does not apply.

OK, look.

To be blunt? I don't believe you.

Because I know for a fact that there are modders who have denied you, but somehow they're listed as "oh, they just didn't get back to me". Which makes me suspect that a number of other mods you've listed as having permission for, you actually don't. You may have crossed it out, but you have OOO in green — I know for a fact that you'd been explicitly denied use of it. OBSE is "outstanding", but I know for a fact that if you'd contacted them about it, they would have told you "no" straight off — it would really hurt OBSE to have alternate distributions around, as having the latest version of OBSE is more important than in most mods.

So frankly? I don't think I can trust your list. I'm sure many modders didn't mind — which isn't the same as supporting, as you yourself note — but I simply cannot rely on your word about these things at this point.

Why would you expect the community to "support" your project?

There is no such thing as a "community project" here. There has never been one that actually succeeded. Even widely-used mods like UOP are the product of individuals or very-small teams. Hell, an enormous amount of the Wiki — you know, the site that every modder uses — was written by half a dozen people. And most of the rest was written by authors who posted their own tutorial as a self-contained entity, rather than integrating their work into the Wiki as a whole.

And the reason is because every modder has their own interests and their own goals. They want to do their own thing. Even if they're willing to allow you to use their mods, that's not the same as being interested in spending their time in that manner. They have other things that they would rather spend their time doing.

I teach people some basic operations of computers and nothing overtly complicated and nothing as complicated as installing some of these mods. Some of the people were handicapped but most were not. One of the people I tried to teach was a retired engineer which worked with punch card based computers in the past and other then basic things I couldn't get him to understand many things. Most of the people don't even know how to install Windows even though it is easier then installing many of these mods.

PS. Did you know that almost every other mod community would support a compilation project and for many the entire community is based around one. This is actually the only modding community I deal with that is so venemous towards the concept of a compilation.

Guenthar1, your long PS from your first post above is making the whole issue more complicated than it really is.

The expectation on the side of mod users to get a wonderfully modded game for free without investing practically zero time and effort themselves is just unrealistic. Likewise that "we" can enable the last, either most lazy or most computer illiterate to get a modded game is just as unrealistic. You and I were not born with a writing skill. We had to learn it. You and I were not born with an Oblivion mod-using skill. We had to learn it, at least to some minimum degree. Somebody is not willing or capable to do it? Sorry, I couldn't care less. I have no desire to convert the last poor soul in the world to playing modded Oblivion.

I think the consensus and the topic is more like "let's help the ones who are willing to learn the required minimum" with some useful, up-to-date information. The ones who find out they are still incapable despite their best efforts, they should look for another pasttime. I doubt there is more than 1 person in 5000 who really would be so incapable. It most likely would be a person who is not using computers all that much, and is not used to playing computer games. I think this is just not the target audience for the project at hand.

I know many people that play computer games that wouldn't be able to install mods and one of them I install games for pretty much just plays rpgs. I'm not sure if she is interested in mods since I haven't asked but at least for her if she wants them I can install them for her. She is physically disabled and is someone my mom works with in in=home healthcare and because she can't do that much she mostly plays games.

EDIT: Actually a good way to find out how many people think it is to complicated to install mods would be to have a poll asking that somewhere where it would be highly visible. Another somewhat good way is to wait and see how many people download mods from Steamworks since it should be easy to download and install through that. The only problem with that is it is for Skyrim and has a much larger audience then Oblivion.

I don't see what this has to do with the topic. I am an older and physically disabled person. I play Morrowind and Oblivion, in part because games help me to somewhat make up for the limited experience my once very active life has become. I have successfully added mods to, and made mods for, these games for years. I have no need for a problematic compilation that makes things "easier" for me. If I want to make or play with mods, I teach myself how to do it. There's no god (or whatever) given right to be able to mod a computer game.
Compared to most of life's problems, it's an insignificant thing, really.

There was a point made earlier, that if people want a compilation, they're going to go get a compilation from somewhere. If there's an official/authorized compilation made by and endorsed by the community, they're going to get that one, as opposed to the sketchy, unauthorized, potentially harmful compilation from somewhere else. But if there isn't an official/authorized compilation endorsed by the community, then they're going to just go get the crappy compilation instead. It's possible that saving people from the crappy compilations may be reason enough to make an official compilation. If not for the sake of being kind to people who want a compilation, than at least for the sake of showing off how much better we could make it than the unauthorized ones.

...it's just a thought. plz don't attack me.

THe main problem I see with a compilation is the end users are not going to even know which mod is changing what things in the game - which eventually will become a major problem as they begin attempting to adjust the game to their individual liking since they will have no idea which of the mods contained in that compilation made what changes to the game (Or if it was in the original game since they never played it without the mod compilation that everyone said they should add to the game !) -- then as conflicts with other mods come up they have to rely on the community to tell them what mod is conflicting with which other mod and actually need someone to explain to them how to find a conflict and since all they did was a one step install of a compilation they have no idea where to start and someone trying to help them will have to have a thorough knowledge of exactly what this compilation adds to the game since as far as the end user knows they are simply using a single mod compilation not knowing they have added 20 or 30 mods in the process any one of which may be conflicting with the newly added mod and the process of determining what exactly the conflict is becomes even more frustrating to them since they never learned the basics of modding the game so they expect every mod they add should be a simple download and click on an .exe installer and all should work !!

Read my words: Community endorsed OB compilation won't happen. Actual content, author rights, maintenance, updating process... lots of things being problematic in this area.

People wanting this stuff turn elsewhere and will find whatever.

Community-endorsed, list of recommended mods and recommended combinations of mods for certain type of characters/players (mage, thief, warrior) yes, that can happen.

For the sake of entertainment, let's put up some random mod names that we would consider putting in a compilation:

and a new round of arguing back and forth will commence... OK, this is our wishlist. Then get permissions. Oh damn, Bomret does not give his and TNO simply doesn't reply for 2 months.... Then what? Wait for him? OK kick out TNO. Then how good a compilation is it without EE? Then find the people looking after all the updates for even this short list... then develop smart installers, because user Joe may have changed some .ini settings or the DarN settings or added some other mods (EE...) despite our explicit warning that the compilation is guaranteed to work only as is, but if the installer is not smart he will be upset that suddenly all his changes are gone and he curses the compilation team for the bad service.... and and and.... hopeless if you ask me. We should just scrap this idea, my opinion.

Worst of all, most of this kind of hate will come from lazy people who were not willing to invest a little bit of effort themselves for their better OB experience. This is a lose-lose proposition, IMHO.

I've stayed out of this one so far. I've more than said my piece previously in this monthly debate. I've made my stand on such a package quite clear.
A limited search of the forum will pull up dozens of threads similar on this very topic.

As for a reference site it's been tried before, or do I have to highlight links to long gone former members of the community who have attempted similar? These pages and sites still mostly exist - forgotten, abandoned and almost completely obsolete.
I suggest the same would happen, regardless of good intentions.

Tommy, I agree with your above statement on both issues.

First of all, I have yet to fail to help a user, with or without physical disabilities, learn how to install mods. I'm not saying that each of them figured out how to get FCOM running successfully, but they clearly learned how to install some mods and what the process entails. If one approach fails, try another.

Secondly, not everyone on this forum is against the creation of a compilation. Therefore, the resources and support is available to have a fully-endorsed compilation. The problem arises when whoever is pushing a compilations has deemed a mod a necessary candidate without the support of its creator. There is an obvious solution and path of continuation: create a compilation with mods for which you have the modders' support. Yes, there are great mods out there which by that criteria alone will be unavailable, but if the goal of the compilation is to give users who do not want to put any effort into learning how to add mods to their own game, you can still achieve that goal. It is not the community's job to do that for anyone, and the community cannot prevent anyone who is really interested in making a compilation (and not just having it handed to him) from pursuing such a project.

It all comes down to compromises, a lot of them... If someone wants to put in the work to get the support of some modder's, pull their mods together, and setup a support group for the compilation, go a head and do it. Why blame anyone for not doing something for which they have not reason, responsibility or motivation to do?

How come no one professing a compilation has simply started a thread with a list of mods for which they already have author permissions?


--Tomlong75210

Perhaps because permissions of the most popular and currently up-to-date mods haven't been given?