Please take a moment and read this thread.....don't just jump to a conclusion and post.

I know as a community we are very against compilations, in the past they have been put together by upstart players lookin got earn quick downloads off other peoples mods....often without getting permissions fro mthe original modders.

However, I'm here to propose that the community itself put together a 'basics' compilation, very common mods used by majoritty of the community....such as bugfixes, graphical upgrades etc. in a similar strain to what the Morrowind Overhaul has done.


The reason I'm asking this is that the Morrowind Overhaul has greatly improved how new players approach Morrowind, straight off the bat they can improve their game heaps, while not losing it's original flavor.....it has lead to many new people picking up the game and not ignoring it for just having poor graphics.

So what I'm proposing is that as a community a compilation is put together that does the same, bugfixes, graphic improvement, essential gameplay mods (eg. artifact scaling) etc. That any new player would need for their game. From this we can also link to the overhauls so they have a place to start when they want to add mods to their game. With the massive influx of new players coming from Skyrim, a starting compilation could really help other enjoy this fantastic game.

Here are the requirements for a mod being added:
- It cannot change the vanilla flavor of the game. No overhauls or new quests (within reason). Basics mods.
- It must be stable
- It must be a final release of a mod (or a mod that has very definate versions)
- Require the author's permission
- - - If the author cannot be contacted, we can have a link to their mod in the compilation as a suggested mod.

Lastly the compilation would be uploaded under a community name with credits within so that nobody get any fake credit for it.

I'm also not here to take charge of this compilation, as people may know me, I play a fairly vanilla Oblivion game (back when I used to play) and never really paid much attention to other mods releasing. I'm hoping someone well known and trusted within our community will lead this.

I want this thread just to act as a discussion on whether or not this should/will happen or not. This is no the place to actually build a compilation yet.

My main concern is that compatibility with such a thing will become a new requirement for modders, which is neither fair nor reasonable. If compatibility is difficult to achieve, it may also split the community.

Further, you seem to be recommending mods that should be very easy to install in the first place. Why would we want to deprive people of the first, basic, easy-to-install mods so that they can get some experience and knowledge with the simple cases, before attempting to install something more complicated?

I think simply having a list with links would be much more beneficial to the community. Too much hand-holding will only serve to encourage users to bite off more than they can chew, and that only leads to headaches.

In theory a good idea -- however in reality trying to get the community to come together and decide on a single set of mods to place in a compilation is pretty much an impossibility due to the various tweaks that each person is going to consider essential and which things they feel should not be touched in order to maintain the game's original look and feel. Then you add to that the feelings of the individual modders whose works do the same things in different ways and you just asking for problems (how do you decide which one of several mods that do the same thing is included and which are left out without hurting the feelings of the others that think their method is better !)

First I'm not a heavy modded gaming player and I only use mods that's easy to update if necessary, such as Emma's mods (Vilja and all her cottage mods) with most of Arthmoor's mods (AN, NB4R) plus a complete UL installation and TNO's mods (MMO, Dynamic Maps, EE). I think body mods should be optional, because many people here have a different opinion about what body mod is better than the other body mods and the same thing is with replacers too. There is one thing that needs to be a requirement for a mod and that's no major overhauls (FCOM, MMM, OOO) is gonna be included in a community compilation. I also think that veterans needs to be on same level as a newbie if a such community compilation is gonna to work.

As soon as you get into options, you've defeated the entire purpose of the project.

Which is yet another reason why compilations are a waste of time. The point of modding is customization.

Klauss ?(sp) was starting an interesing Complation a while back, not sure Where that went, But Maybe if someone could complie a list of differant ontional mods that do the same or Similar things, with links (such as Differant body mods) it could be helpful, however I think That's even been done Several times to one extant or other, witch is the problem with Lists, (There's just too many to sift through)

Klaus discovered that the vast majority of authors were not interested in their work being a part of the compilation, and it was therefore impossible to complete as envisioned.

This is very true. I just took a look at the list of mods included in this Morrowind Overhaul project. I didn't get any further than 10 mods into the list before I had to stop. These are not the mods I would want in my game.

...and someone has to keep watching out for mod updates and keep the compilation up to date, and the download links maintained (what could happen at megaupload could happen elsewhere) and and and... I just don't know... I wouldn't want to do it.

I think it is also problematic because some mods, even most agreeable ones - I just say COBL now - install differently with different mods. Say the compilation user installs the compilation. But there is no MMM in the compilation. Then he reads about all the crazy monsters and spawning options of MMM and wants to add MMM to the compilation setup. But then he needs to manually, intelligently make some changes to the COBL install for vanilla which came with the compilation. Then he does not get it right, then he will complain about the bloody compilation that locks him in on one particular game setup... eventually he will have to download all the individual mods himself and reinstall and learn everything that he should have learned in the first place already...

I'm just not convinced one can offer a really good product which is both interesting, yet also flexible. For flexible, the user must learn some things about modding the game for himself. So I'm pessimistic on the whole subject.

What if we just took everyone's "top" list and compiled them in a database with tags, allowing new users to use tag-based search for lists. I agree that it would be impossible to come up with one list, but would it be possible to come up with one method of describing various "top" lists. There is going to be a lot of overlap between people's lists. I'm just saying that there may be a way to tackle this issue, but it would require some thought beyond the obvious or whatever it is we've discussed already... As far as where to host the project, I'd be willing to help out with that.


Happy gaming!
--Tomlong75210


Edit: If we could come up with some sort of "top" lists system, it would be nice if they were all associated with installation instructions too. (@Tommy_H: If we did that, that could fit into the TESCOSI project.)

Sounds good to me. Such community project could be hosted on http://www.fliggerty.com/phpBB3/index.php (http://download.fliggerty.com/) since anyone doesn't need to watch an ads video and can download without registration.

This. For instance I am against mods that auto-level your artifacts/quest rewards, so that would rule out the compilation right there for me if it included that.
If I HAD to create a compilation that was a widely appealing, lore-friendly, and vanilla-like as possible though, I would probably combine UOP, Deadlier Creatures, COBL, WEPON, Lore Creature Expansion, and Unique Landscapes. That seems like a good base pack... but I don't know if anyone else would actually agree with that.

The UOP is definitely necessary and both Cobl, UL is stable imo, so I agree with these mods and all of them is compatible with each other.

Frankly, UOP is the only mod I would give the "always and everyone" status.

Of those, I only use the UOP and COBL.
I use UL, all of them, as well, but out of all of these, I only see the UOP as necessary. My required mod list only has the UOP on it and any optimization mods as needed. Personally, I do not want a modded game without OOO in it, ha-ha, but there is no way I would think to recommended to all users. Some people come here looking to enhance very specific aspects of the game (i.e., immersion).


Happy gaming!
--Tomlong75210


Edit: extended...

Database might be a Good way to go, Nexus has their Reccomended mods, but you could See them better in a Database...

Where are their recommended mods? I see best of, but not recommended.

Oh and as for the main topic of the thread. I wonder where MSGO would be if the main author suddenly quit?

Kingpix carries that project and I highly doubt anyone else could fill his shoes. It would have to be a dedicated team that would carry on - I highly doubt a group effort of well intentioned modders would be able to do it ... or agree.

Well, Ok, "Endorsemants", but you can only see them for Each mod indivualy, (and Most people don't even bother) but with a Database you could just drop a usert list in and they would bs sorted automaticly...

This topic keeps getting repeated endlessly with the exact same responses from people that know exactly how to install mods and seem like they don't know the meaning of empathy. There are a large amount of people that may be interested in mods but don't have any idea on how to do anything related with it or are unsure on whether mods are going to be useful. This would be for them and not really for anyone that is posting in this thread currently. It doesn't matter whether people here think it is easy to install the mods or it is easy to learn since most people that would use this would be having the opposite experience where installing mods is either extremely hard to impossible or extremely time consuming and they don't have the time to do it.

The whole issue on choosing what mods to include and having mods that do the same thing is moot if you do something like Morrowind Overhaul since Morrowind Overhaul has an installer that lets you choose what to install using an easy to use interface. (I haven't installed it myself but that is what it seems to me) You can probably have sections for different types of mods with easy to understand descriptions that the user can select from and also an advanced selection where it would allow the user to select each mod individually with descriptions. When there are more then one mod that does the same thing the installer could have a selection dialog describing the differences between the mods. Also for updating it could always include an update program like what Morrowind Overhaul has now.

Pretty much every single complaint can be solved and this could even include mods that are still being updated since you could have an update program or even have the Nexus Manager included. These mod compilisations never go anywhere because of all of the negativity that comes from people here even though all this is for the 80% of people that can't do it manually. (I know only one person in RL that has a clue on how to do any of this so it is more like 99% for me)

PS. I wouldn't use this but I believe everyone should be using mods for Oblivion even if they don't know how.

Other than the UOP I've yet to see the definitive list of mods that are must haves.

I haven't even seen that list. I thought Kluas was being too inclusive, but not that I wanted to stop it from happening. It was just that he set his sights way high. Better to start small and build evidnce that it is worthy and doable.

I don't think that MSGO should be held up as the standard though. It is a one man show and that show will end when that one man stops doing it. Did Kingpix really make polls to get approval or did he just go ahead and do it?

Expect people to post after me stating that your deriding the experienced user is not selling them on it.

So they should learn.

Installing mods is not that hard. There are plenty of tutorials.

But instead, you come here and complain about modders not having empathy? Just who the hell do you think you are?

Let me put this in perspective for you: modders have donated millions of man-hours to improving this game, for absolutely no compensation whatsoever. Hiring a team of programmers/modelers/texturers/writers/world-designers to recreate the material available on the Nexus would cost millions if not billions of dollars. We are talking about an enormous amount of time spent by talented and skilled people — the sorts of people whose effort does not come cheap, if you're looking to pay for it.

And you, and everyone else, is getting that absolutely free.


But you complain that people who have donated this staggering number of hours, out of their own personal free time, lack empathy?

No, it is you who lack empathy. You clearly have absolutely no regard for the time, effort, or desires of others, but instead feel that you are entitled to the work of others', exactly as you would have it.

And we're supposed to feel sorry for you? We're supposed to all give up whatever it is we want for our mods, and sign them away to some compilation, just so you don't have to read a few pages of readme?

Your incredible ingratitude is absolutely sickening.

This is the sort of attitude I'm talking about.

This compilation would not be for us, it would be aimed at making a 'modded' game for the masses. We aren't trying to make everyone's game perfect, we are just trying to get a 'majority fits all' compilation.


All of us know that we like to make our games exsactly how we want them, but when you are just joining the community this is really hard to do as you don't really know what you want. We are essentially going to help the newbies to Oblivion, we are not helping ourselves.

For other game titles I have looked at modding lists.....and quickly went "screw that" when there isn't a good place to start.....and countless people would have done the same to us. Our forum is a mis-mash of complex tutorials for overhauls, and small -single fix mods....and Im not suprised people turn away.


I know it isnt fair, we had to learn how to build our awesome modded game through long hours, but that doesn't mean we should continue to punish everyone in the same way before they enjoy mods. If the manhours to get many mods into your game is too high, we will increasly lose track of new players....and Oblivion modding will slowly die off as badly as Morrowind's has....

Morrowind's modding community has surged, and the fact that whenever someone newi s playing the game they are instantly linked to a 'basics' compilation is really helping. Cause after that they refine thier mod selection, but the best thing is, it gave the community a single voice on where to start.


We have to put the "we are suprior because we know how to use mods" attitude behind us......if a good compilation is available, you'll be suprised how many people eventually merge into proper mod users to later on modify their game to thier liking.

EDIT: And anyway, we have our games exsaclty to our liking after all our work put in. A compilation is never a perfect mod list, so we will still have a more perfect game then the compilation users do.

This right here is what bothers me so much about Skyrim modding right now. Seems like no mod-users are willing to learn how to really install mods, they just want NMM to "make it work", not realizing about things like compatibility, Load Order, and heaven forbid a Bashed Patch (not to much it can do yet).

/rant.

Anyway, if a community created mod compilation were to be created, I see one of two ways it could go:

• Only mods that 99% of people agree should be installed:
  

  UOP/USIP*maybe* SM Plugin Refurbish (or similar)OBSE (since the UOP can make use of it, but other than that no mods here need it)

  Which is a pretty light install, and doesn't really change the game at all.
  
• Mods that are commonly suggested, and are generally agreed to be the best in their category.
  

  UOP/USIPOBSESM Plugin RefurbishEnhanced EconomyMap Marker OverhaulHud Status BarsCOBL*maybe* Robert's Male BodyFemale body - too many options and varied opinionsUL's*nice, but probably not* All Natural (probably not because it needs Wrye Bash)*nice, but probably not* Immersive Interiors (because it requires All Natura/WB)*questionable* Bashed Patch generated for this mod set, with minimal "optional components"...others I'm sure I'm missing

  Now, plenty of people will argue for/against items on this list of course. And if this route was taken, a HUGE disclaimer saying somthing to the effect of "This is just a preview of what amazing things modding can do for Oblivion. This compilation has not been designed for compatibility with other mods. If you want to install more mods, you should download the included mods separately and install them yourself. Learn the modding process so you can solve the incompatibilities when they arise."

I'd much rather see something to encourage people how modding works. Important things like "the rule of one" and dealing with it, and other mod compatibility problems should be understood by everyone. A compilation takes that out of the picture entirely - which means it works until the user tries adding more mods into the mix.

Thing is, it don't see a compilation as that. To me, it hurts the new folks more than it helps. Sure it shows them what modding can do, but does it help them at all to be able to mod their own game to their liking? Definitely not. It also leads them into the mentality that these things should be handed to them, in the same way that this compilation was. When they start looking for more mods, there's a good chance they'll ask for them to be put into the compilation so they can install it. Or they'll bug the mod author, asking them for an "easier to install version" so they don't have to think, but instead can reproduce their experience with the compilation.

I'm all for making things easier for people, but there is a certain amount of understanding that's required to mod Oblivion anything past a couple mods. We need to encourage learning those things. Rather than a compilation, a guide on how to setup exactly the mods that would be in the compilation would be much better. Sure it'll mean less people will follow it, but the ones that do will have a basic understanding of how to install mods, arrange a Load Order, etc.

Yeah, thats always the fine line....how much help is too much....but we definately need something. The learning cuvre of mod using is simply too steep.

I'm not against include qutie a wide range of mods into it, give the user a feel of everything, and then they can remove parts if they want. Even if the compilation is a mixed 'start here' and 'learn this' with a thread it is better then starting from scratch.


The problem is, even though we don't allow any compilations, they are out there. Rogue compilations created by people taking all the credit for the mods pop up frequently, if this community had their own, we could definately help control new compilations appearing. As why would a new user go to a rogue compilation if the main community had one.

On the subject of a database of recommended mods: I don't think the Nexus endorsemants can really point out the "top" mod list for any given user. Some of my favorite mods are either not hosted on TESNexus or have endorsemants disabled. I was thinking that we could literally take everyone's "top" lists and just devise an intelligent want of describing and finding the lists.

As for a compilation: I like the argument about having a community-endorsed compilation, but for any you come up with a starter pack, there will always be modders who don't want their mods in a pack. Futhermore, any sort of sompilation of mods will require tremendous maintenance. For all that work, why doesn't someone just create a super sophisticated installer that's designed to install a fixed set of mods. Make something that will install the mods correctly after the user downloads the appropriate packages.


--Tomlong75210