You could just place a scroll in Vivec's secret library, detailing how to use the tools to bind yourself and etc. Maybe make it a journal of Sotha Sil's or something, detailing his experiments with the tools and his final eureka moment. Seems a little off for the player to just 'guess' the ritual.

Here's the text you're looking for:

"The normal procedure for establishing connection with the Heart is a three-step process. The wearer of Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the hammer Sunder, causing the Heart to produce a pure tone. Then the wearer of the Wraithguard strikes the Heart with the blade Keening, shattering the pure tone into a prism of tone-shades. These tone-shades are then imprinted upon the substance of the wearer of Wraithguard, giving him an immortal and divine nature.

The Nerevarine will not be taught the secret rituals required to perform the third step. Instead, The Nerevarine will strike the Heart with Keening for a second time, causing its tones to diverge into unstable patterns of interference. Further repeated strikes with Keening will further disrupt the tones, with the ultimate result of shattering and dispelling Kagrenac's original enchantments binding the Heart, thereby severing the Heart's links with Dagoth Ur, and with any surviving Heartwights, and with the Tribunal. Destroying Kagrenac's enchantments on the Heart will also stop the corrupt effusion of the Heart's divine power, and end the Blight on Morrowind."http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/dagoth_defeat.shtml

It gives you the first two steps there and tells you what the third step entails, it just doesn't give you the specifics. Following that should give you a solid outline, then just improvise for how exactly the tones are imprinted on the wearer of Wraithguard.

As for Dagoth Ur, I wrote http://www.imperial-library.info/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1215227805 about that a while back which might be helpful...

Chances are you'd have to be a god already to have that sort of power. Vivec talks of not being able to sense the Dwemer anywhere within time, Ur probably has similar sensory abilities - I imagine if you exist at all that he'll know about it.

Either that or make up a way to 'banish' him to the dreamsleeve, though to make that flow well you'd might have to do more research than you'd like.

Not really. Both the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur have been killed in the past while being connected to the Heart, they just come back, you'd be no different. They'll still be powerful as well, all they have to do is mount an attack on you and take you out - sure you'll come back, but to say that he can do nothing is just false.

To remove Dagoth's connection you have to shatter Kagrenac's enchantments on the Heart, shattering his enchantments results in the normal ending of Morrowind. Basically, you can't disconnect anybody else without ruining your own chances at harnessing the power...


On another note, I've never noticed the line "The plan is to permanently disrupt Kagrenac's enchantments upon the Heart, severing connections with Dagoth Ur and ourselves, and rendering us all once again mortal. A mortal Kagrenac may then be destroyed by mundane means" in that text before... is that a typo? because seriously, what the hell...

With the tools in hand and the Heart always a spell's distance, any act of war on Nerevar would be suicide. Vivec understood the player couldn't be beaten; Ur, as well, had some instinct for self-preservation; and Almalexia would still be going mad in her self-imposed exile. What would they do?

Your argument is simply wrong, we know this from firsthand experience. Nerevar went in and beat Dagoth Ur while he was "a spell's distance away", just reverse the roles and then take into account that Dagoth Ur has the home-field advantage. The only wild card are the tools, but they don't really factor in since neither one of you are going to use them (and don't forget, Ur doesn't even need the tools to play with the Heart while you do, he's that good).

Sure, any act of war would be suicide, but what does that matter to Ur when he's going to respawn right back next to the Heart and will arguably be more powerful than you anyway. Eventually Dagoth Ur will just say "eff this", throw the tools into the lava (and you if necessary) - your powers will eventually dissapate since you must have the tools in order to recharge while Ur stays at full power since he doesn't need them, in the end Ur wins. If you're going to beat Ur you either have to imprison him or break the enchantments, because when it comes down to it he's smarter, more powerful, more experienced and has the trump card of being able to do without the tools if he needs to.

Similarly, anybody else who knows about the tools and is willing to break the enchantments could pull a Nerevarine on you just like you did to Dagoth Ur.

Give Dagoth Ur a 100% blind and 100% noise spell, then lock him in a cage for pilgrims to laugh at.

Everybody knows those spells don't work against NPCs...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar

I like it! I just need the perfect place to hide the journal..

Could Dagoth Ur even be imprisoned, actually? If mere mortals can teleport to safety, surely Ur would just laugh at his prison and poof back to the heart?

Kinda off topic, but wouldn't the Tribunal be able to do this too? It seems kinda silly that they can't just go in, activate the heart, and then own Ur. Especially since they should be able to teleport, and activating the heart takes only a few seconds each. It wouldn't be a huge task for them to get the tools either, considering they're only guarded by Ash Vampires, and the Tribunal can sense everything...

I'm getting annoyed about the last phase of activating the heart, and what to do with Ur. Although, I do kinda like my mysterious disappearance, personally. When the PC speaks to Vivec later, he says that either there are only so many demi-gods allowed, and becoming one yourself destroyed Ur, Ur simply ran, or Ur was dwemerized, since no one can really control the tools 100%. There's always the risk of imploding the universe. (Vivec doesn't know what happened, he only states his theories)

The reason they don't is because Akulakhan's cavern is sealed against teleportation. You can't teleport in or out. Voryn even mentions that during his "I'm a god" speech; "No Recall or Intervention can work in this place".

In dealing with the Dagoths, you are dealing with very highly skilled magic users.

RellacFTW, if you want a better picture of what it is you're facing when you come to Dagoth Ur, I'd reccommend you read Luagar's http://www.gamesas.com/?showtopic=855475&hl=dream thread. It pretty much explores what happens to him after the Nerevarine frees the heart, but it also makes a couple of theories about his life as a god. It probably won't give you a direct idea of how to deal with Dagoth Ur, but it will give you a few to jumble around.

But surely they can teleport to Dagoth'd Chamber, then? All three, if they had tried as soon as they had thier tools taken, ould have subdued him long enough to re-god themselves?

And Dagoths are nothing compared to demi-gods.

I mean, I'm not actually too bothered, it's just always confused me.

Well good deal, I thought the forum deleted that thread when the software switched, I couldn't find it by doing a search for my topics...

They did try, but really, its eight on three - seven Ash Vampires and Dagoth Ur (who's stronger than any one Tribune) against the three Tribunal, this is not to mention the hordes of other beasts Dagoth has at his disposal right at Red Mountain while any support the Tribunal bring has first fight its way there. Like I said, he has the home-field advantage, the tools weren't really the issue:

"2E 882: The Tribunal arrive at Red Mountain for their annual ritual bathing in the heart's power. Dagoth Ur and ash vampires ambush the Tribunal. The Tribunes are driven away, and prevented from restoring themselves with Kagrenac's tools at the Heart of Lorkhan.

2E 882-3E 417: Intermittent Tribunal campaigns assault Red Mountain. The Tribunal and supporting forces seek to force access to the Heart Chamber, but are repeatedly driven back. Dagoth Ur recruits Sleepers and Dreamers through dream sendings. Cultists are recruited through dream compulsion. Weaker cultists become corprus beasts; stronger cultists advance through stages towards the powers of the Ascended Sleepers....

3E 417: Almalexia and Sotha Sil lose the artifacts Keening and Sunder to Dagoth Odros and Vemyn. Vivec rescues Almalexia and Sotha Sil, but failing to recover Keening and Sunder, the Tribunal retreat from Red Mountain in disorder."http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/dagoth_plan.shtml

The Tribunal have been held at bay by Dagoth Ur away from the Heart since the second era, its not that they didn't try, its that Dagoth beat them back because as Vivec says "he is stronger and smarter than we are, and his followers are more fervent and fanatical." They didn't loose the tools till just before the events of Morrowind.

If you're referring to the Ash Vampires you might be right, but you forget that there are seven of them and only three Tribunal, and that's not counting Dagoth Ur (who is more powerful than them) or the masses of Ascended Sleepers, Ash Priests, Ghouls, etc. So not only is Dagoth Ur + Ash Vampires stronger than the Tribunal, but Dagoth Ur's minions are more powerful (and likely more numerous) than the Tribunal's Ordinator & Armiger forces.

I've been curious about that line as well, wondering if it was a typo or a hint that Voryn was possessed by Kagrenac or something along that line. I guess it could explain why Dagoth Ur and the Heartwights, all former Chimer, have those Dwemer-style beards. I never did understand why the game developers gave them those.

I checked the TESCS, that's what the text says. If its meant to say that then our whole conception of the Dwemer/Kagrenac/Dagoth Ur/Akulakhan/Numidium just got seriously [censored] up - I really don't remember ever discussing this before, which is a hard thing to have done after having been here for seven years...

For the sake of humoring our situation, I'll give it three possibilities:
1) Its a typo by the devs, the text is supposed to say Dagoth Ur, and our mindset can stay the same
2) Its an in-character typo by Vivec, an unintentional lapse in thought which caused him to confuse Dagoth & Kagrenac for a moment and thereby offering hints into the Tribunal's first encounter with Kagrenac
3) Its intentional on both the devs and Vivec, in which case everything is 'effed and we need to start re-evaluating whole ordeal at Red Mountain - drawing much closer parallels between the Dagoth/Kagrenac and the Numidium/Akulakhan (which isn't hard since they're identical anyway). This would also help explain how Dagoth could use the Heart without the tools.

Hm, must have misread that too. Still, if it was intentional, what would that mean? Kagrenac 'possessing' Dagoth Ur seems a little bland. I'd say mantling, but doesn't that only work for taking a gods position?

Not necessarily, there's just usually no reason to do it. Of course, there are texts which say the Dwemer were immortal during the battle and hint that Kagrenac had already connected them to the Heart, that would put him in a sort of 'divine' position - though I'm not saying that mantling is the case.

This sounds like a very cool mod idea. It's great that you're taking the time to make it fit with lore



Could there not be another way to sever his connection? We aren't told definitivly all the possibilities of what can be done with the Heart and Kagrenac's tools. Maybe the player can find another way.

Now here's just an idea I came up:

Have the player take the Sotha Sil journal and Kagrenac's tools to Divayth Fyr and Yagrum Bagarn and convince them to help you find a way to sever or weaken Ur's connection to the heart without breaking the enchantments. Fyr is one of the most gifted wizards in all of Nirn and Yagrum Bagarn was one of Kagrenacs assistants. I'm sure they'd be able to come up with something. As far as why they would want to help you become a god; Divayth Fyr would probably go along with it for a chance to study Kagrenac's tools and the nature of divinity, and the player could convince Yagrum to help by promising to use your godly powers to heal him and investigate further into the disappearance of his people.

I'm not the most knowledable when it comes to lore but the way I see it; when there's something that isn't completely defined (such as all the ways that Kagrenac's tools can effect the heart) as long as you make up stuff that fits alongside existing lore, then everythings o.k. :hehe:

Good luck with this :goodjob:

A modded healhy Yagrum would be AWESOME!!!

Vivec states that "The Nerevarine may be tempted to steal the power of the Heart. Dagoth Ur and Sotha Sil alone know this secret" and goes on to say that "But we have also chosen to place our trust in the Nerevarine's judgement and skill. Frankly, we see no alternative."

If there was another way of doing it Sotha Sil would have figured it out, afterall, he's the one that figured out how to use the tools in the first place - and surely the Tribunal would have looked for another way given that the current way means losing their godhood. Yagrum would be a good asset, but he admits that he wasn't actually one of the ones working with the Tools originally and has to have Kagrenac's journals to use them (not to mention that his memory is shoddy anyway). Plus you still have to take into account that you don't have the Heart to actually experiment with, its rather hard to learn new techniques of using a tool when you don't have access to the thing the tools are supposed to be used on - and then there's still the factor that nobody knows exactly how Dagoth Ur is connected to the Heart so naturally it'd be dang hard to figure how to disconnect him.



As for how to handle Ur; getting him outside the cavern, activating a soulsnare and then killing him would be a normal procedure, but (as I believe I mention in that previously linked article and as you can see when you kill him) his soul doesn't seem to be in his body - likely its either in the dreamsleeve dreaming into existence the manifestation you see ingame or is in some way bound up in the Heart or Akulakhan. Either way, you can't soul trap him and since it seems you can't really affect his soul in general it'll be hard to figure out any way of banishing him (since banishing deals with the soul).

That said, I'd recommend what has already been brought up about trapping him. His consciousness is in his body, so if you can trap his body you can essentially keep him indefinitely detained - trapping him in his helmet like you mentioned is a decent way of going about it (a little reminiscent of Dr. Fate as well).

Voryn is too tall to be able to leave his cavern. He'd have to sneak, and we all no that can only be scripted for NPC's

Would it make any sense at all for Sotha Sil, being one of those scholarly mage types, writing his journal in Dwemer? I would need a reason for you to take it to Yagrum, but the player can't know what is written there. I was thinking of making Yagrum teach you how to use the tools correctly with the same method Vivec uses to teach you how to use Wraithguard.

That depends on whether his scholarly mageness is strong enough to overrule his not wanting to incriminate himself with explicit evidence detailing how he stole his godhood.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incriminate

It wont be a trinity with four members...