Mercy is exactly an opposition to Equivalent Exchange because it is an action of paying without any predicable gaining and vise versa, so it is not strange to link Stendarr to any god and action toward Luck.

Stendarr is the Sensitive Probability to Zenithar's Mechanic Dynamics.

But Stendarr is also Justice, which is paying your dues, and making sure everyone gets what they deserve, what's coming to them.

I would say Stendarr is the Karma God of the TES universe.

That'd be Aka-Time-Dragon. Karma is causality, not retribution.

I'd rather take Stendarr's Justice more to its "Weaklings deserve better" facet, an opposition to "Might is Right", which occurs if you push Zenithar to an extreme.

Stendarr is "to get what does not equal to what you have". The weak don't have enough might, so in a world of absolute equivalent exchange, these people are determined to fail. What brings them hope and oppotunity to exist on is Stendarr's Mercy and, to them, Justice.

To a degree, only Probability can beat Absolute Equation.

And, if Stendarr is retribution, then he becomes another inevitability as Zenithar. The only difference between them is Stendarr is spirital while Zenithar is material. As Spirital in Nirn is as important as material, I fail to see why Stendarr is not an aspect of Zenithar.

In another word, retribution in Nirn is truly Zenithar. Stendarr is the Loophole that erase certain consequence.

Ehhh. . . I dunno about that. Karma definitely requires time to provide context. I would think almost all of the gods and their domains require time to have any meaning at all. Time is a medium in which causality takes place. In the same way that "stuff" is not space or spatial dimension, space provides existence with context.

Maybe one can think of Karma as net-causality with meaning. Combustion is the cause for fire, but it attains meaning when that cause and effect happen to burn down a evil man's home.

Maybe it's the difference between ordered causality and the chaotic?

How do you account for Stendarr representing the courts and law then?

And the Vigil certainly believes in Might makes Right, and since Faith shapes the Divines.....

He is also descibed in flavor text as "the patron of righteous might" which sounds a lot like karma. Do the right thing, and you will become strong.

And weren't Stendarr and Zenithar brothers in the Nordic pantheon (Stuhn/Tsun)? Perhaps they were meant to be closely related.

If all believe "Might is Right", then there's no need of Law and Court. Take a look on the Telvannis and you can understand what I mean.

Law is a way to keep the weak from misery and suffering. Of course the powerful can use law to benifit themselves, but still, by using law these powerful get more than they deserve. A double-edge sword it seems, but just the probability loophole Stendarr presents.

We say might is righteous only after it is not Right. The strong and powerful don't need "from Righteous". They are Righteous themselves by they have Right. Righteous might is what is said to the weak, to explain to them why they don't have Right. This is the Mercy of Stendarr, to let the weak believe not all Right is taken by Might, and prize them with his Luck in the phantom of "Righteous Might".

Stendarr and Zenithar are more like twins as Stuhn and Tsun, but a twin is different from a doppelganger. Aka and Lork are twins and see how they are against one another. I'd say Stendarr and Zenithar are twins more as Aka and Lork are, less rivalty but still opposition.

Righteous might is like saying "I'm strong because I do the right thing, I help protect the weak, I do charity work, and I slaughter Daedra and undead" which is Stendarr, where strength comes from doing what is right. Zenithar would say "I'm strong because I worked hard to become strong, I spent decades honing my skills, I never took the cheap way out," where strength comes from diligence and discipline. One of them is spiritual and one is physical. There's a subtle distinction, and I do like the whole Stendarr and Zenithar are brothers kind of thing, which makes me think that there has to be an overlap between the two.

The problem is how can we say "something is right". There is no definitely right or wrong in the concepts of Nirn. Right and wrong is defined by mortal. Different mortal have different Right and Wrong. So how can a follower of Stendarr alway "do right so that I gain strength"?
So Stendarr of Cyrodiil (whose Vigil we see through most of games) reflexs different right from Stendarr of Alinor. Is it because different "right and wrong" co-existence, or more likely, right and wrong is an illusion from mortal view, and the foudamental of Stendarr is what brings "right" to those who most need it, a.k.a. the ones who cannot gain the "right" all by themselves?

I like the brother theory, too, but I don't think it a spiritual-physical dualism, because it is meaningless in Nirn to have a spiritual-physical dualism. My theory is as follows:

Let's say "Pay and Gain" is the basic of Stendarr/Zenithar. A pro-anuic expression is what of Zenithar, an absolute equation, and a pro-padomiac expression is what of Stendarr, the probability that may add or remove a bit from the result.

The Stendarr of each pantheon will indeed differ slightly depending on where you are. So the Alinor Stendarr will be different than the Cyrodiil Stendarr will be different than the High Rock Stendarr.

Especially since each province will have slightly different laws. The Stendarr of each province, as both a "law god" and a "moral god" will have distinctions.

I'm a big fan of the "mortal faith and worship can affect the gods" idea, so this model of Stendarr makes sense to me.

I like the anuic/padomaic duality you propose, I think it's better than the spiritual/physical thing I had (which as you said is meaningless in TES).

On the Simplification of the Nine Divines

By Archbishop Julius Medici, Resolution of Zenithar

I fear about the future of the Nine Divines. Citizen faith is at an all-low. They just don't feel the gods are important. I blame this on the neutering and simplification of the Nine Divines.
My studies with the Temple Zero Society (which I am an honorary member of) has revealed to me a wealth of complexity which I never would've expected from the Nine Divines. All the teachings my elders spoke about Zenithar taught me much less than reading a single book about Zeht. So when I with all my scholarly knowledge looked down upon the masses, they seemed so very ignorant to me in comparison. Most of them didn't even know the Altmer had different names for the Divines. And a few didn't even know who Shezarr was. I took various surveys of the populace, and had discovered this common ignorance.

Akatosh started out as Auri-El, and was weaved in metaphysical concepts like Dracochrysalis and the Dragon Break. Nowadays, men just think of him as the king of the gods, with only a token mention of his power over time. The ancient and proud traditions of the Ancestor Cults only now exist in the Moth Priests and Tiber Septim. Ancestral worship is a vital part of religion, performed by almost every race at one point in history. And now we have forgotten it. Even the Altmer have forgotten, and now only the Dunmer hold up this tradition in a pure form, though I believe that without the Tribunal's personal interference, they would degrade to a similar degree. And Stendarr! He was a god of might and justice, popular amongst the ancient Nords as Stuhn, and now he is the least worshipped Divine, honoured as a god of mercy (a concept that fails to strike devotion in one's heart).

I believe that as our gods are simplified in the public's view, the public starts to believe that the gods are not important, and thus faith is lost. An era ago, faith was an important thing. Cyrodill was the land of a Thousand Cults, many unafraid to delve into complex matters. But now there is one monolithic church, which appeals to the lowest common denominator. I feel that if we went back to the old ways, it would be better. The cults showed us deeper glimpses of the Divines, while current temples only offer us a shallow view. I find the death of these cults a saddening thing. To put it quite frankly, the Nine Divines as they stand now are boring. And unless we capture the interest of the public, then we shall stagnate, just like the Alessian Order.

Karma isn't very powerful in TES. Mannimarco became a god. He pissed all over the concept of karma.

Also Molag Bal still exists.

And murder and violence is the key for attaining divinity in Tamriel.

I note how Tiber Septim and Vivec were both sneaky jerkfaces who through extreme luck managed to become the general of a king, and the first chance they get they murder the king and become the new king.

Nah, I think he's the answer to people with bad karma....

And now the Thalmor are gonna kill Tiber Septim and Vivec ended up dooming Morrowind.

Karma need the absolute rule of logical consequence. Molag Bal is a bad bad Daedra so no inchangable rule can rule him.

Magnus and his children are depressing because the stinking Padomaic blackhole has ruined the perfect Karma.

That's okay. I think karma is putridly boring anyway.

Back to Stendarr and Zenithar...I think you're judging them the wrong way. "pay and gain" is really the wrong way of looking at Stendarr and shouldn't be used as a basis for him. Zenithar, on the other hand...I'm not sure. Perhaps SithisLorkhan is on to something.

I blame the Imperial pantheon for everything.

I like SithisLorkhan's explanation on Zenithar, as equivalent exchange is interesting and basic. Stendarr and Zenithar, from their aspects of Stuhn and Tsun, always make me think of them as Candy and Whip of the King. So if the Whip is an equation, the Candy must be something to soften the reality, that is, to solve the certainity. I'd like to put probability in the blank, becausr probability is not as static as the classic mechanic dynamics, yet not as unpredicable and chaos as Brownian motion, which is Sithis.

Mercy is something you give to someone who cannot gain it himself, so as the poor recieves your mercy his pay and gain equation breaks, but it is not his will that break the equation, so we can say it is his luck, at least to him. Luck breaks the equation, luck is probability. Stendarr shows Mercy, Stendarr is probability.

And if this theory is right, there must be a facet of Stendarr on Bad Luck or plundering, while the same time Zenithar becomes the "Honest Labourer". The equation breaks the same. Both sides of the probability can be obtained into Law and Righteous, "good" or "bad". It is only the Cyrodiil religion that labers Stendarr a plain Mercy face. At least Stuhn is a warrior, who plunder and kill first and then show mercy. Stendarr of Alinor has mercy on men, mayhaps by metaphor a tendency to Padomaic influence.

Goddammit, SithisLorkhan. Do I have to make another Nibenese animal cult response?

Sithis (definite irony somewhere in there) is succeeding in doing something I thought forever impossible: Making the Divines interesting. I never even thought to try (other than maybe Tiber and Kyne). Keep it up.

Yes.

Counterargument to Nero's Speech

Dear Primate Nero:

Your speech (which some would call a rant) against the practice of Necromancy, I heard, made waves among the College of Whispers. Congratulations on alienating us to an entire guild! Why they let you in, I'll never know. You don't know how to adapt to the times. Here is my rebuttal of your ignorant words

• You claim Necromancy was invented by Mannimarco. However, forms of Necromancy have been practiced since the Merethic by Sload, not to mention the Dragon Priests of Skyrim. Mannimarco merely perfected it. We don;t say that Shalidor invented Alteration, but he certainly mastered it.
  
• You claim that lichdom requires sacrificing innocents. However, what little we know of Liches suggest they are created by alchemy and soul transfer. So don't say that the Grandmagister is going to kidnap and murder people because of his attempt to decipher the secrets of lichdom.
  
• Mannimarco worship isn't illegal, despite what we all wish.
  
• You speak of how Arkay hates Necromancy. You are clearly unaware of the church-sanctioned Necromancy, done specifically with permission and ritual so that Arkay doesn't get offended at the tomb guardians. There is a difference between conjuring up a willing ghost and enslaving the souls of an innocent. The Dunmer did this for millenia and could tell the difference between that and the darker forms of Necromancy.
  
• The College of Whispers refuse to deal with Vampires. They certainly wouldn't have Vampires in their highest ranks.
  
• There are no Necromantic rituals involving necrophillia.
  
• Lastly, you claim you are a Primate. However, I have just demoted you to Disciple for causing this scandal.

Sincerely:

Julius Medici

Man, Julius was actually much more knowledgeable about theology than I intended when I came up with him for that roleplay. His personality is still similar, though.