What do we actually know? Is this yet another BGS grey area where we're to decide for ourselves?

One story suggests he was born in Atmora under the name Talos (meaning Stormcrown) while another story suggests he was born in High Rock under the name Hjalti Early-Beard. Being born in High Rock would suggest he's a Breton, but his name suggests he's a Nord. Would he then be half-Nord, half-Breton?

The first story also suggests that he picked the name Tiber Septim when first conquerring Cyrodiil and he became the first of the Septim line, but the Septims are Imperials.

He is a Nord. I dont know where u heard the high rock story thats Bologna

Check the UESP. I also heard it from other sources.

Talos was born in Atmora, Hjalti was born in High Rock. That seems to be what we know.

Hjalti is a liar, the deceiver side of Lorkhan. I rather think of him being half breton and half nord, also the Atmora part is pure propaganda created by him.

Intermarriage with Cyrodills nobles.

The Septims were mutts, they have nord, imperial, breton, dunmer and who knows what else in them.

Tiber Septim was a barbaric heathen Harry, who took Tamriel by force. Whoever has the most power wins, and the Empire won. His worship is just Imperial propaganda IMO. With an emphasis on the IMO part..

Although the Thalmor only want to get rid of his worship because they actually believe he is a divine, and want to diminish his power by cutting off his worship.

Nords and Orcs share that same way of life. Whoever is the strongest wins.

One, being born in High Rock doesn't make one a Breton, especially not with a name like Hjalti.

Two, Atmora was still inhabited at the time Tiber Septim lived. Sorry, this comes up a lot. No more refugees arrived after 1E68, but in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wolf_Queen,_v4, a Pyandonean ambassador says he is fluent in the language of Atmora to Queen Potema. That was in 3E 110. The book was published by Waughin Jarth, but originally written a contemporary sage.

To make it more confusing than it ever has to be, there's a (quite credible) theory that Atmora is actually Akavir, or at least a part of Akavir known as 'http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Kamal_(place),' which invaded http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Second_Akaviri_Invasion Skyrim in 2E 572, with apparent pre-knowledge of the area. Some of the Akaviri could speak basic Cyrodiilic, and they attached an inexplicable level of importance on Windhelm.

It does actually come up a lot in in-game sources.

of course not, because a cat born in a stable is still a cat and not a horse, but he could still be a Bretorn for all we know.

I don't think that should be consider for "Atmora still having people" and the book can be consider historical fiction based around a real event.

For the most part we know that Atmora is uninhabited

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atmora

"but expeditions there in the mid- to late-Third Era only found a place of permanent winter with little life and no sign of human habitation. It is believed that Atmora no longer supports any civilized life, and those people who did not leave it for Tamriel ultimately succumbed to the ever-worsening climate."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Other_Lands

"Expeditions to Atmora in modern times describe a place of permanent winter, with little life and no sign of human habitation. Whatever population did not succeed in fleeing to Tamriel doubtless succumbed to the ever-worsening climate many centuries ago."

I've heard people say that Talos (the god) is a combination of:

Tiber Septim/Hjalti

Zurin/Wulfharth/Ysmir/Underking

That's at least two, possibly three humans who form Talos.

He has a cameo in Morrowind as "Wulf" and the ghost in Old Hroldan mistakes the current Dragonborn for Hjalti, so there's in-game support for Talos being an alloy.

Tiber Septim qualifies as a divine as defined by Bethesda as his blood successfully was used in the "Blood of the Divines" portion of the main quest of The Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion.

That's irrefutable evidence, if those expeditions went to the right place. There's a a (quite credible) theory that Atmora is actually Akavir, or at least a part of Akavir known as 'Kamal,' which invaded specifically Skyrim in 2E 572, with apparent pre-knowledge of the area. Some of the Akaviri could speak basic Cyrodiilic, and they attached an inexplicable level of importance on Windhelm.

Besides, even if the Kamal theory is barking up the wrong tree, 'the modern era' and Tiber Septim's era are over a millenia apart. We know that the Tamrielic climate has been cooling, so what's true now may not have been true then.

I personally think Talos is a Nord from High Rock, but the Atmora theory can't just be written off, in my opinion.

The third PGE was written around the time of Oblivion.


"Expeditions to Atmora in modern times describe a place of permanent winter, with little life and no sign of human habitation. Whatever population did not succeed in fleeing to Tamriel doubtless succumbed to the ever-worsening climate many centuries ago."

honestly we have more credible sources stating nothing is alive in Atmora, even when we compare it to

1. Historical fiction
2. The words of a complete jerk and liar who not only killed his liege in order to usurp the empire but also screwed over anyone close to him.

Hjalti was a really terrible person if you look into his history and he is known to be a complete liar.

I totally forgot about that, good point!

I also doubt those expedition went much further inland then the immediate area around the coast.

What makes you think they didn't check the coasts? Honestly, we have more proof that Atmora has been uninhabited for well over a few centuries, hell the whole reason the Atmorans left Atmora was because of war and Atmora was freezing over.

The Atmora Theory can be written off because we know Tiber was a known liar and we have no proof that ANYONE has been living there since the first era.

The Wolf Queen claims to be 'penned' by a contemporary sage, so calling it 'historical fiction' is an opinion that goes against what we have in-game. Jarth is predominantly a fiction-writer, to be sure, but he usually puts his own name on his work. Besides, his lore when it comes to exotic provinces is pretty accurate. His The Argonian Account series is where most of our lore on Argonians comes from, and people don't question that too often.

As for more credible sources that state the opposite, we have one: the Pocket Guide to the Empire. It's not an explicit lore-book, or even part of the game-world: it's a commercial item that came with special copies of the game.

'This person lied once, therefore everything they say is a lie' is a pretty big logical fallacy. If that were true, we'd all be screwed.

You're right to say that there's no proof, but then again there is no 'proof' otherwise. These expeditions are mentioned in a single sentence, in an out-of-game commercial gimick, whereas Queen Potema is a verified and important part of in-game lore, written about in The Wolf Queen by a series of contemporary academics.

Father of the Niben, an in-game historical book, says Waughin Jarth used over a hundred sources when compiling The Wolf Queen, and says that it is 'well-regarded.' No-one has ever said that about the PGE.

A repost of an /r/teslore comment of mine that's entirely applicable here:

A bit of explication, as I know this isn't a lore forum, yet understanding Talos involves heavy stuff.

Dragonborns are semi-divine. Hjalti Early-Beard (the mortal alternately known as Tiber Septim and Talos Stormcrown) was Dragonborn. That's a good foundation.

Shezzarines, the mortal reincarnations of Lorkhan, are also semi-divine. Halti and both his Underkings, Ysmir Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus, were all Shezzarines.

Enantiomorphic trios (most prominently known for Aka/Lorkhan/Magnus) are divine and mythically powerful events. The Rebel, who is invariably the victor, always becomes a Ruling King of the World. An Enantiomorph played out when Hjalti the Rebel usurped Wulfharth the King, who up to that point had been his real ace-in-the-hole power-behind-the-throne, in the process accidentally maiming Zurin, the Observer who witnessed the event.

Talos had access to and full control over the Numidium. Anyone who's studied Mannimarco, the King of Worms, knows that ambitious mortals can steal godhood with the power of Numidium-activated Dragon Breaks. It's not even necessary that Talos did this; the point is that he had it available to him, and it alone is fully capable apotheosis machine.

Talos had CHIM, which Heimskr and Mankar Camoran can both tell you. This alone entitles one to godhood and a sort of shackled omnipotence.

Talos's divinity ent just some Imperial propaganda. He has so much divine power that the Thalmor can't set about their Mundus-uncoiling scheme while he still exists; thus, they lie about him, and try to weaken the mythopoeic influence of Convention 2.0, the Enantiomorph of Talos, through stamping out mortal worship of him.

When your minds get done exploding, I'll answer all your questions. Note that not a single thing I referenced originated in an out-of-game text, so leave your canon bickering at the door. It's all true.

Talos cures your diseases if you pray at his shrines, just like the other deities. I wonder why there is no other blessing.

Correct me if I'm wrong: The events of the Oblivion crisis took place ~400 years after Tiber Septim conquered Tamriel & began the Third Era. Skyrim takes place about 200 years after the Oblivion crisis, so Tiber Septim (Talos) lived ~600 years ago.

Pity that one can't ask Neloth about Tiber Septim, I'm sure he was around then.

K

Yes. Another 1 of many things that are left open to interpretation and this has been debated to death and beyond in the Lore section without coming to a solid conclusion....I go with C. All of the above

Not really. As I've explained.

We're talking about the man before the CHIM and not a single lore book in game is a factual account, only personal accounts. I can't remember if it was MK or 1 of the devs who said so but they purposefully wrote contradicting books on such topics so we can never know the final facts....it's a trail of breadcrumbs that never leads us home to the truth.

I think they do this so they can work new game content into the loopholes as we see with Miraak being the "first Dragonborn" even though it was written that Alessia was the first...they couldn't have a cute First and Last battle if it was us against St. Alessia so they squeezed Miraak through a crack

>the man before the CHIM

CHIM is integral to understanding his godhood. It is one of the many things that clearly support his divinity, so I'm not sure why you think you can discount it.

>not a single lore book in game is a factual account

I understand the uncertainty principle of primary sources well. That doesn't mean we can't piece together a solid conclusion based upon the most-likely factual elements of various accounts.

Everyone agrees that Talos was a Dragonborn. Dragonborns are mortals imbued with the divine spark of the Spirit of Time, and are thus closer to the divine than non-Dragonborns are.

Everyone agrees that Talos wielded Numidium. Mortals who wield Numidium can become gods, as evidenced by the duality of Mannimarco, the King of Worms and the God of Worms, Jill-corrected so that both were always there.

Everyone agrees that at least two of the three entities comprising Talos are Shezzarines, Wulfharth and Tiber Septim. Zurin Arctus's Shezzarine-ness is buttressed less prominently, but it IS supported nonetheless.

Everyone agrees that Talos achieved CHIM. Mortals who wield CHIM basically already are gods.

The Arcturian Heresy, which alleges a plausible account of the Enantiomorph of Talos, by itself could obviously be questioned as a biased account or outright lie. However, there's a very good reason to trust the Arcturian Heresy on this account. The events of Daggerfall. Zurin Arctus appears as the Underking in this game, which only makes sense if you take the Heresy's account for granted - that he became a deathless shade when Talos killed Wulfharth.

Meaning that the Enantiomorph of Convention 2.0 has a very solid basis for acceptance.

You can't talk about lore without actually talking about lore. Saying "narratives are contradictory and it's all a trail of breadcrumbs leading nowhere!" isn't actually examining the facts.