[Mashystar]

Isn't a sload more like what you're talking about?

[courtnay]

Actually, Daniel_Kay, since they can stay underwater indefinately, I think they pretty well count as amphibians.

That doesn't mean they have to be toad-like, though, ew. Newts are amphibians, but look more like lizards than toads.

I am totally against Subadim's suggestion. Argonians are supposed to be hunters and guerilla-fighters. They should be lean and muscular, not bloated like that.

As for the poll options:

I think Morrowind has had the best Argonian design so far.

I think they should have spikes and fins, but no hair. The females should also get some headdresses; they had them in Morrowind, whatever happened to that? Did they all sell their headdresses for spare change?

I also think they should have distinctive animations. I want them to be able to wear all armor types, though. Not to be able to just isn't balanced (unless they have some special armor that no-one else gets?)

Oh, and one more thing:

LIZARD PEOPLE SHOULD NOT HAVE BOOBS.

[tannis]

No, a sload looks like http://www.imperial-library.info/gallery/mw_TAoM_p47.jpg. They'd become goop in salty water. Argonians would not.

Ew is the correct response. I thought my suggestion would displease scalies, but I don't make suggestions for other forumers, anyway. Ugly(er) orcs and beast races +1

I think Bethesda took the wrong path long ago, when they kept their beast races so human looking. It's one thing to give them femurs, and thumbs, and stuff, but I don't like the overly-humanized look of swamp people, cat-men and ho, ho, ho green giant men. I don't care what they are right now. Bethesda has a proclivity, for changing more important things.

If not toads, go back to http://www.imperial-library.info/gallery/mw_TAoM_p31.jpg. Anything to make them look like they grew out of a swamp.
Hell, turn them into fungus men with eight genders, for all I care.

[Sun of Sammy]

Speaking of concept art, here's a "http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5095/argonianconcept4.gif" I made myself, this is a bit more how I'd like to see them.

[Pixie]

Actually, Daniel_Kay, since they can stay underwater indefinitely, I think they pretty well count as amphibians.

WRONG! They're lizards.
Amphibians are: Slimy, have two stages in life (water then land), absolutely need to stay moist at all times, absorb things through their skin easily, and do not have scales
Reptiles: dry, still look like advlts when they hatch, can stay dry, have scales, and do not readily absorb things through their skin

Simply put, argonians are not amphibians, and to believe so requires one to study biology again.

Let me ask you this, would you consider turtles amphibians, even if they can stay practically underwater all the time?

[W E I R D]

They're described in Daggerfall as a highly evolved race of reptiles.

[Nichola Haynes]

Argonians are an esoteric swamp people, with two gender phases, and a psychic relationship to trees. The distinction - are they reptiles or amphibians - adds nothing to their mystique. Once it's licked the sap, it isn't what it was anymore. Anyway, I think the better design is to make them repulsive and look like they crawl through a swamp. Seeing one should be an event.

[Stephanie Valentine]

This is a silly discussion... I think its obvious that Argonians are a type of ambulatory lung fish. Yeah. Look that one up. :mohawk:

With the discussion of Toad-like Argonians, I'd like to remind everyone that they are part of lore: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Argonian (see "Tribes")

Anyway, I'll reiterate that diversity is best with a race like Argonians. Other races need to be hemmed in somewhat, since making them too diverse will result in them being no different. Go all the way with Argonians Bethesda.

[Tom]

Yes, the Paatru. I never actually read http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/argonian_account.shtml. Thanks for the fact checking. That makes sense, because there's a prominent one http://www.monkeytruth.net/texts/histexploration.shtml, too.

[Rudi Carter]

While ugly, gross, toad people are WIN, I'd personally prefer my Argonians to be lizard-like.

I think they should have spikes and fins, but no hair. The females should also get some headdresses; they had them in Morrowind, whatever happened to that? Did they all sell their headdresses for spare change?

That's something that bothered me, too. All we got in Oblivion was "Jeweled Fins" and "Decorated Spikes"... that's not good enough. You could do so much more than just add jewels to two hairstyles when you incorporate things like feathers and even chain (like that style in MW with the chainmail cover, strange but I liked it).

They don't have to be added to loot tables, Beth. But they could be. The people demand HATS.

Speaking of concept art, here's a "http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5095/argonianconcept4.gif" I made myself, this is a bit more how I'd like to see them.

That's a good concept. The way the tail is a continuation of the spine is something I have been waiting to be incorporated. Maybe it'll happen this time. While the legs are different (in the way I've wanted) they also don't look like they would be too much trouble to animate properly, especially by a professional.

Argonians are an esoteric swamp people, with two gender phases, and a psychic relationship to trees. The distinction - are they reptiles or amphibians - adds nothing to their mystique. Once it's licked the sap, it isn't what it was anymore. Anyway, I think the better design is to make them repulsive and look like they crawl through a swamp. Seeing one should be an event.

There are some things here that I've questioned. I have done my own digging but can't find proof to these outside of rumor and hearsay. As these are starting to be accepted as truth throughout the forum I'm sure I'm just missing something. Possibly within the Compendium that I sometimes blank out at while reading.

Regardless, if you can point me in the direction of some actual evidence of the following, I can finally put my searching to rest.

A.) The gender phases. To my knowledge this started with two obscure words in the Argonian description in Morrowind. The words being "Life Phase" and their association with "Male life phase" and "Female life phase." This has never again to my knowledge been mentioned. The common interpretation is that their lives have two gender phases, but in my head there is another possible interpretation. That rather than *gender* life phase being descriptive, the gender is actually possessive. Meaning that the life phases are different for the two genders. So why call it life phase? Maybe because life is just one of many phases for Argonians, who believe they come from the roots of a spore producing tree.

Anyways, that's just how I've seen it. Again, please correct otherwise.

B.) The sap licking thing. I can't find anything whatsoever that suggests the Argonian physiology changes after licking the sap. The only in-game "sap licking" or established lore I have found is from Traveling-New-Woman. In her story she talks about how her parents warned her not to lick the sap before the Naming Ceremony. As you know, she and a boy from her nest are caught in a soft leaf patch ready to lick the tree anyways, then she runs away and straight into a group of children waiting their turn. This suggests that they already have defined genders before licking the sap (not completely related to the question, but still close). It also suggests that she was capable of understanding warning, and likely consequence if she chose to run "fearing the licking her parents were about to give her." It's also a clear example of mischief. So you can understand that I don't believe Argonians start life as a non sentient animal, only morphing when they lick the tree. Surely not EVERY Imperialized Argonian was born in Black Marsh.

Again, my thoughts and interpretations.

I'm not trying to call anyone out, or tell people they are wrong. I merely want answers.

[Erich Lendermon]

Oh yea one thing, on different faces there was something I suggested and I'd still like to see, have different BASE faces to work with. Something like FaceGen should still be used but there should be different bases you can select from, this would severely reduce the rubber face look problem. This should really apply to ALL races on the game but specially for the beast races the bases could vary greatly.

One base could have a very round and smooth look like Iguanas, another could be long and pointy like a raptor snout and yet another broad and heavy like a T. rex muzzle. Looking at the base faces they had in Morrowind is actually a good idea there, imagien you'd have those 3 base faces and STILL could alter them with facegen, it would give you MUCH more possibility how to design them.

To expand this a little, Khajiit for example could have a very animalistic tiger/lion like face, a more housecat like one and one that's almost completely human but with some catlike features, this could account for almost all humanoid Khajiit types. For humans/elves you could have a very slim, normal and very broad face base to work with.

As said this would severely reduce the look of faces simply being stretched into form as they already have different bases to be formed on.

That's a good concept. The way the tail is a continuation of the spine is something I have been waiting to be incorporated. Maybe it'll happen this time. While the legs are different (in the way I've wanted) they also don't look like they would be too much trouble to animate properly, especially by a professional.

Thank you, I maybe would change the upper body a bit, it's a bit too curved right now, but the tail would give a good center of balance again even if their upper body is arched out a little.
Also I did try myself at animating the feet and, while I'm by far not a professional, I could get some good animations done.
A HUGE problem is that such feet types are often animated too stiff, the foot joint barely turns, when stepping forward they'd pull the knees AND a feet up, curl in the toes and then spread them out again as they plant their feet down, this gives a very natural stride (try looking at how some birds with long legs walk or how dinosaurs are usually animated).

[Sandeep Khatkar]

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/brendanarticle1.shtml

[Kirsty Collins]

As far as the Argonian as "Toad" as far as concern, appearances and otherwise, I prefer that would not be the case at all. The "Tribe" part was base on an imperial interpretation while traveling at Black Marsh and has far little knowledge as to what live there. Either the "toads" are just monsters mistaken as "people" or just are actually tribe but calling themselves by name and not by appearance wise.

Boob-wise, I can go either way, but a bit more on the boob side. I am fine that if they have boob, it mean a hell lot less confusing regarding if its a male or female, not to mention the possibility of a 3rd body set just for the Argonian Female Body if the dev decided not to add in boobs for the the Females.

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/brendanarticle1.shtml

Good source, but tendency to contradict itself a handful of time. I am pretty sure as what Flailing Gnome interpretations goes, that pretty much how I would view Argonians as well.

[Alisia Lisha]

my vote is for no argonians at all.......get rid of khajit as well. that would definitely help with the "walking through a pet store" atmosphere i get when i go into towns.

[Svenja Hedrich]

Personally I'm on the "don't care either way" side of the briast "issue" but I had a few thoughts on that topic, I'm working on a bit of fantasy on my own and made up a few things for that, including a lizard species.

Here on the issue with briasts i simply came up with that they have two main body shapes, the "primal shape" and "urban shape".
The basic differences there are body shape, size, colorations and certain features.

In the primal shape males and females physically look very alike, females are in average a bit taler, not by much though. Males have very colorful scales all over, they also grow long crests and some of their scales can grow out long like feathers (though stiffer). Females have no briasts and are less colorful, they don't grow crests but they can have very complex monochrome patterns over their bodies.

The urban shape came to be when they lived in mainly human dominated societies for several generations which, unintentionally, also adopted some human "ideals" in terms of body shape. With that the females and males are on average the same size, due to wearing clothes the patterns and colorful body markings are duller and less complex but they have very colorful head colorations, both males and females (it's still more prominent in males but urban shaped females are almost as colorful as primal males). Males don't grow as long but more complex crests, female ones are usually simpler but longer. Females don't have real briasts but due to certain "beauty ideals" the ones that had a more prominent chest and wider hips where preferred (in that case it's mostly fatty tissue, no mammary glands).

[Angel Torres]

There's a big difference between an amphibious reptilian and an amphibian.

Amphibious being the adjective and reptilian being the noun. It's a reptile that likes to get wet.

When the marines make an "amphibious assault" does that mean that their assault is an amphibian? Amphibious does not mean amphibian.

[adam holden]

There's a big difference between an amphibious reptilian and an amphibian.

Amphibious being the adjective and reptilian being the noun. It's a reptile that likes to get wet.

When the marines make an "amphibious assault" does that mean that their assault is an amphibian? Amphibious does not mean amphibian.

Its slightly more than a reptile who likes to get wet. Its one whose body has adapted to living partially or wholly in water. I'm a human who likes to get wet. I'm not an amphibious human. Myself, I feel Argonians should be reptilian but their appearance should reflect their amphibious nature. MW (as is usual) did this quite well .

Still, Argonians are the least like our human norm of all the races. Subadim is right this should be shown. I'd just prefer something not as totally repellant as a toad

I'd like Argonians to be a bipedal and evolved duck-billed dinosaur like http://www.dinosaurden.co.uk/graphics/Parasaurolophus.jpg but rather more humanoid.

[Mariana]

my vote is for no argonians at all.......get rid of khajit as well. that would definitely help with the "walking through a pet store" atmosphere i get when i go into towns.

the whole beast race thingy is 1 of the major things that makes it a fantasy or fantasy shi fi games to have the idea of multiple difrent races wich makes it more intresting with out beast races elves plant humanionds like ents or in shi fi aliens and only keep humans you either get a dull normal like history game or dull futher based game and here its about fantasy and you never forced to take them if you dont like them there also people in the real world that oyu dont like or they dont like you but doesnt mean you have to be around them but doesnt mean they still there

[Marilú]

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/brendanarticle1.shtml

I'm pretty sure I mentioned The Compendium in my post.

...

Perhaps this isn't the place to have brought these up anyways.

Its slightly more than a reptile who likes to get wet. Its one whose body has adapted to living partially or wholly in water. I'm a human who likes to get wet. I'm not an amphibious human. Myself, I feel Argonians should be reptilian but their appearance should reflect their amphibious nature. MW (as is usual) did this quite well .

I've always just assumed that they can't really breathe water (up until Oblivion told me they could) and could merely hold their breath for very long times, much like an earthbound reptile.

[Emily Shackleton]

To me it really depends where the next game takes place. If it really is in Skyrim then answers would go one way, but if it was in the black marsh I suspect answers would sway very much in the opposite direction.

I'm not speculating on the province of the next game, but my answers would be heavily swayed by it.

[*Chloe*]

I'd like Argonians to be a bipedal and evolved duck-billed dinosaur like http://www.dinosaurden.co.uk/graphics/Parasaurolophus.jpg but rather more humanoid.

OMG Parasaurolophus! :drool:

When I was a kid that was my favorite dinosaur. I wanted to be a Parasaurolophus when I grew up.

But seriously, everyone download Daggerfall and make an Argonian. It tells you right there, "highly evolved race of REPTILES."

Stop trying to intellectualize it. It's a reptile.

I've always just assumed that they can't really breathe water (up until Oblivion told me they could) and could merely hold their breath for very long times, much like an earthbound reptile.

That's why I liked the spell in Morrowind. Gave you kind of an enlonged breathing bar, if you use your imagination. Which is what RPG's are all about.

[aisha jamil]

But seriously, everyone download Daggerfall and make an Argonian. It tells you right there, "highly evolved race of REPTILES."

And by reptiles they actually meant Ambulatory Lung Fish.

Come on people, you should all know this.

[Juan Suarez]

The best Argonian (or Khajiit) is a dead one :gun:

[Solina971]

Variety between the races is good.

The "beast races" in Morrowind were good at creating the illusion of variety (given limited resources, much of game design is the illusion of something grander). Their limitations and silly walk stood in contrast to the "normal" walk and abilities of other races. Added immersion, was fun. Modders had a ball with it. In Daggerfall or Oblivion, eh, it didn't really matter which race you chose. Variety is good.

[josie treuberg]

i liked the morrowind colorued ones the most, none of this sixual dymorphic colour (they would stick out in the swamp). Um, i am a herpetologist, so i think about this alot to me, they have aquatic components, they are more like amphibians than reptiles. to me, they seem like some sort of pedomorphic toad (stopping development before maturity, partial lungs form, in salamanders feathery crest-like gills are still present, along with partial tails) toads have thumbs and i suppose could very well wield weapons and aromour. they also have vocalizations. amphibians are real into camouflage, and whats better then assimilating into society with the top of the food chain?

argonians are like giant toad people to me