[jesse villaneda]

Noo...they shouldn't look like altmer at all.

I get the sneaking suspicion that the only reason, or at least a primary reason, why people want the Orcs to look like green elves is because they can't stand playing a character that isn't sixy. :poke:

Newsflash. Orcs are ugly. But they aren't unlikable. Stop being so shallow forum.

[Kelly Upshall]

I get the sneaking suspicion that the only reason, or at least a primary reason, why people want the Orcs to look like green elves is because they can't stand playing a character that isn't sixy. :poke:

Newsflash. Orcs are ugly. But they aren't unlikable. Stop being so shallow forum.

That's right.

People like to pause and stare as they change their character's clothes. But, if you want your characters to be all eye candy, you should download a mod, because it's very unfriendly to the lore.

Certain races should be unattractive. Orc females in Morrowind were grotesque and the Nord females all looked like they belong in the NWA. More of that, please. Mer shouldn't be attractive in the eyes of a human, at all, IMO.

I think they should have totally different standards of beauty.

[Philip Lyon]

I get the sneaking suspicion that the only reason, or at least a primary reason, why people want the Orcs to look like green elves is because they can't stand playing a character that isn't sixy. :poke:

Newsflash. Orcs are ugly. But they aren't unlikable. Stop being so shallow forum.

I get that feeling too. I've already pointed out numerous times already that orcs are supposed to be ugly, but some people seem to want pretty green mer. Just because they used to be aldmer, a race of proto-elves that most likely looked like the altmer, doesn't mean they're pretty.

Look at the other mer. The dunmer are supposed to look ghoulish with their ashen skin and red eyes, and the bosmer are small, cannibalistic carnivores, adapted to be a lot more wild and one with nature in a feral sort of way. Their eyes in MW were perfect, really black everywhere. The only race of mer that's supposed to be tall, elegant, and perfect are the altmer, because they strictly breed themselves to be perfect, and will even kill their own offspring should they have slight imperfections.

[Kristian Perez]

They are the biggest joke of all the races, as for good reason; the orcs are children of a turd.

Exactly.

And my point wasn't extreme. The extreme point would be designing the orcs to resemble a literal turd.

[nath]

Newsflash. Orcs are ugly.

Why? Because every other fantasy story has ugly green orcs? Isn't the whole point of fantasy to be original, and to escape from the norm? I hate the idea of re-using Orcs and Elves in fantasy titles for the millionth time, but if you insist on using them then at least be original about it. Bethesda have very original Elves, particularly the Bosmer (before they became a joke race... but i'm sure that will be fixed soon) and Dunmer. Why should the orcs have to be ugly and stupid?

http://community.imaginefx.com/forums/storage/7/217318/Ulna%20Orc%20warrior.jpg <--- That's not an Orc you'd want to sleep with, but she is incredibly attractive for her visual and stylistic flair. THAT is a race you can believe in, and would want to play as, unlike Orcs in Morrowind and Oblivion.

[liz barnes]

Ugly and stupid is a bad stereotype; the combination is a bit too cliche. I'd rather see them as ugly and brutish looking, perhaps a bit more emotionally volatile than most, but capable of as much intelligence as the other races (or else why would they be such noteworthy craftsmer?), although not necessarily as "quick" about it. That doesn't mean "Intelligence" as a magicka-controlling Attribute, but in terms of overall mental ability, where they would be just as capable of learning, reasoning, and understanding a situation after giving it some thought, even if they don't always see it instantly because of their volatile emotions getting in the way. Because of their "irrational" responses due to emotions, and because of their appearances, they might often be thought of as "stupid". The occasional "truly stupid" Orsimer (which can and will happen in any race) would only serve to reinforce that stereotype.

I had issues with the one question in the poll. Tattoos aren't really either a plus or a minus, in my opinion, but there's no "meh" answer, just a definitive "No, no, no" and a bunch of positive options that aren't at all what I'd like to see. I wouldn't mind them during character creation, but having to create all of the in-game facilities and menus to add them to your character "after the fact" would take up development time and effort that could be better spent on things I'd want to see in the game, not tatoos and face paint. Since both of the "yes" options include "post creation", I couldn't vote for them. Restricting the option to only male or female orcs makes no sense, either. I voted NO, only because there were no "fitting" choices.

[RAww DInsaww]

Why? Because every other fantasy story has ugly green orcs? Isn't the whole point of fantasy to be original, and to escape from the norm? I hate the idea of re-using Orcs and Elves in fantasy titles for the millionth time, but if you insist on using them then at least be original about it. Bethesda have very original Elves, particularly the Bosmer (before they became a joke race... but i'm sure that will be fixed soon) and Dunmer. Why should the orcs have to be ugly and stupid?

http://community.imaginefx.com/forums/storage/7/217318/Ulna%20Orc%20warrior.jpg <--- That's not an Orc you'd want to sleep with, but she is incredibly attractive for her visual and stylistic flair. THAT is a race you can believe in, and would want to play as, unlike Orcs in Morrowind and Oblivion.

She's only an orc I wouldn't want to sleep with because she's so pointy. And, now that I look at it a second time, I think I'd take my chances actually.

Trust me, ugly female orcs are way more original than hot ones. Pretty much every fantasy movie/ video game has every female built like a model and wearing nothing. It's fine, now and then, especially in a campy setting. But it makes no sense for the Elderscrolls.

This is Tamriel, not Playboy. Fix it. Bring back ugly orcs!

I'm gonna support this idea 100%.

I had issues with the one question in the poll. Tattoos aren't really either a plus or a minus, in my opinion, but there's no "meh" answer, just a definitive "No, no, no" and a bunch of positive options that aren't at all what I'd like to see. I wouldn't mind them during character creation, but having to create all of the in-game facilities and menus to add them to your character "after the fact" would take up development time and effort that could be better spent on things I'd want to see in the game, not tatoos and face paint. Since both of the "yes" options include "post creation", I couldn't vote for them. Restricting the option to only male or female orcs makes no sense, either. I voted NO, only because there were no "fitting" choices.

My bad.

I quoted your opinion for posterity, in case the devs are paying attention.

Just so you know, in Morrowind the paint is exculsively male and the ridges are exclusively female. That's why I separated males and females in the questions. But I should have had an "only in chargen" choice.

[Oceavision]

Bring back ugly orcs!

They never left the house...

They're commonly found hiding behind boulders near Caldera, mistaking diamonds for rocks. Failing that, they can be found in manor houses in northern Cyrodiil, mispronouncing long words.

At the moment the race looks ugly, sounds ugly, and acts ugly. I can't find anything attractive about them. All I can see is generic Orc, stolen from generic fantasy. Bethesda are better than that.

[Alan Cutler]

At the moment the race looks ugly, sounds ugly, and acts ugly. I can't find anything attractive about them. All I can see is generic Orc, stolen from generic fantasy. Bethesda are better than that.

Read what I said about the history of orsimer, they're supposed to be ugly! They are the children of a turd god known as Malacath. They are to represent everything the altmer do not wish to be, ugly, short lived, imperfect, bad and barbaric teeth, smaller, brutish, etc, etc. However, orsimer are not dumb, and can be very smart (maybe not as much as a pijjic). And if you would look outside their general appearance, they are pariahs who wish to integrate into the empire, were hated by everyone since their formation, and are divided between two factions that wish to remain faithful to Malacath and those who wish to bring Trinimac back. Yes they could use a culture boost, but they are to stay ugly until they warp back into the aldmer they used to (if that will ever happen. Mehrunes Dagon has a better chance of destroying Mundus than that)

They are not some misunderstood humans/mer in the need of some make-up to turn then into supermodels with giant briasts. They are the biggest joke and shame to all altmer in physical appearance. You cannot glitter on a piece of poo and call it a diamond, it's still a big piece of poo.

[priscillaaa]

Read what I said about the history of orsimer, they're supposed to be ugly! They are the children of a turd god known as Malacath. They are to represent everything the altmer do not wish to be, ugly, short lived, imperfect, bad and barbaric teeth, smaller, brutish, etc, etc. However, orsimer are not dumb, and can be very smart (maybe not as much as a pijjic). And if you would look outside their general appearance, they are pariahs who wish to integrate into the empire, were hated by everyone since their formation, and are divided between two factions that wish to remain faithful to Malacath and those who wish to bring Trinimac back. Yes they could use a culture boost, but they are to stay ugly until they warp back into the aldmer they used to (if that will ever happen. Mehrunes Dagon has a better chance of destroying Mundus than that)

So their backstory is also pretty much copy/pasted from Tolkein? Elves who got caught up with the wrong demigod, and became twisted and corrupt. I have no idea why worshiping an ugly god would result in yourself turning ugly though... that sounds pretty nonsensical. I'm betting they weren't described as 'ugly' because their god became corrupt, but because they are called 'Orcs', and we all know Orcs are ugly, right kids?!

I have a lot of respect for the TES world and races, but the Orcs and Nords, and partially the Bosmer, still need to be fleshed out and given something unique before I can respect them. At the moment they are just stolen from generic fantasy (Orcs), real-world ancient mythology (Nords), or are used as a joke race (Bosmer).

Keep the name Orsimer, show some relevance to their Altmer lineage in their appearance instead of making them generic ugly green-skinned pigs, and give them a sense of culture and the hint of a brain cell or two please.

[JD bernal]

I get the sneaking suspicion that the only reason, or at least a primary reason, why people want the Orcs to look like green elves is because they can't stand playing a character that isn't sixy. :poke:

Newsflash. Orcs are ugly. But they aren't unlikable. Stop being so shallow forum.

looking elven doesn't mean pretty, I WANT Orsimer to be ugly. But they should basiclly look like green Dwemer (BASED OF THAT CONCEPT ART PICTURE) without the beards, plus tusks, and in more fitting clothes. Yes make them samrt (but a low inteligence attribute gameplay wise.) in terms of what traitional Orcish clothing looks like, take http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/12980/piccolo_2%5B1%5D.jpeg for wardrobe inpiration, but not for what they should look like.

[CArla HOlbert]

So their backstory is also pretty much copy/pasted from Tolkein? Elves who got caught up with the wrong demigod, and became twisted and corrupt. I have no idea why worshiping an ugly god would result in yourself turning ugly though... that sounds pretty nonsensical. I'm betting they weren't described as 'ugly' because their god became corrupt, but because they are called 'Orcs', and we all know Orcs are ugly, right kids?!

Either you are evading the issue, or you didn't read what I wrote. I'll try to make it more simple for you.
The orsimer used to be aldmer (think altmer). These aldmer worshiped the hero god, Trinimac, above all other gods in the merish pantheon. When the Chimer, lead by the prophet Veloth, were going to go on their exodus, Trinimac tried to stop them along with his loyal aldmer. Boethia ate Trinimac and used his voice to speak blasphemous and demoralizing things to the aldmer loyal to Trinimac. After crumbling the aldmer's entire world, Boethia pooped out Trinimac, but Trinimac warped into the being now known as Malacath. With this, those aldmer also underwent a transformation, and became the orsimer.

These were not elves who were captured, tortured, mutilated, and corrupt by a malevolent being to make his own army and to give the middle finger to the elves. The orsimer, pretty much, were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Here's a book that pretty much sums up what I said http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_True_Nature_of_Orcs. In other words, they're poop nuggets to the giant turd Malacath.

I have a lot of respect for the TES world and races, but the Orcs and Nords, and partially the Bosmer, still need to be fleshed out and given something unique before I can respect them. At the moment they are just stolen from generic fantasy (Orcs), real-world ancient mythology (Nords), or are used as a joke race (Bosmer).

A lot of races need more fleshing out, but you can make do if you read the lore and back history. There's plenty of enough material for you to read through, though the Imperial Library needs to be restored soon..

looking elven doesn't mean pretty, I WANT Orsimer to be ugly. But they should basiclly look like green Dwemer (BASED OF THAT CONCEPT ART PICTURE) without the beards, plus tusks, and in more fitting clothes. Yes make them samrt (but a low inteligence attribute gameplay wise.) in terms of what traitional Orcish clothing looks like, take http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/12980/piccolo_2%5B1%5D.jpeg for wardrobe inpiration, but not for what they should look like.

Then what you want is a wardrobe change, not some makeup and lip gloss. http://www.imperial-library.info/races/mw_orc.gif

[K J S]

I like that concept art, except make them have roundish heads and warts (possibly) and be a bit taller than Bretons.

[Alan Whiston]

Why should all orcs be ugly just because that's the way they are portrayed in other games and media?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to be green elves, but they shouldn't be monsters. They should be similar to how they are now, sarcastic and brutish, but still tactically intelligent.

I feel like the Orcs are based on the Mongols and the Germanic tribes as opposed to the consensus here that they should be green gorillas with tatoos.

[Antonio Gigliotta]

Why should all orcs be ugly just because that's the way they are portrayed in other games and media?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to be green elves, but they shouldn't be monsters. They should be similar to how they are now, sarcastic and brutish, but still tactically intelligent.

I feel like the Orcs are based on the Mongols and the Germanic tribes as opposed to the consensus here that they should be green gorillas with tatoos.

Never said they should be green gorillas, but they are to look opposite of the altmer.

[Aliish Sheldonn]

I love the orcs. I haven't played as one, but they add so much depth to the world. I remember meeting my first orc and thinking "Wow this guy's ugly... and he's probably going to punch me in the face and eat me if I say something wrong." Then he turned out to be a nice guy... what a silly bigoted Imperial I was. :rolleyes:

So, even though I haven't played them I'd definitely keep them playable. The fancy may take me in TESV, who knows.
I have to say I also didn't notice the ridges in Morrowind... but I voted yes, the more alien the better IMO. I voted for male only tusks, something about tusks is just so... un-feminine. As for face paint and tattoos, I think these should be available for all races, including orcs, and available in character creation and afterwards in the open world.

[Anna Watts]

What skin ridges?
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:MW-NPCs-Lorbumol_gro-Aglakh.jpg
Orcs just happen to scowl a lot.

[Latino HeaT]

I definitely agree that the Orcs need fleshed out, and I think they're going in the right direction: I mean, originally they were simply green monsters that you cut down in Arena and to some extent in Daggerfall. But then they became a playable race with a bit more lore. They're an ostracized people, long considered by the empire as little more than monsters. And despite opposition from all of their neighbors built and rebuilt their own kingdom. They are adept in diplomacy. They are excellent armorers. They are the best soldiers in Tamriel. They built a city made completely of iron. The Orcs are still downtrodden but they are rising stars within the empire. So I think their position is well warranted. I don't see how they're appearance is really important to making them unique.

The fancy may take me in TESV

Hey, I called it. In Tes V, if there is an empire, whose to say it won't be an empire ruled by Orcs? Or whose to say the Orcs won't be the next 'Dwemer'? An iron city is certainly impressive in a world largely built of stone and wood.

I hate the idea of re-using Orcs and Elves in fantasy titles for the millionth time, but if you insist on using them then at least be original about it.

Yeah, in my own game, I would definitely dump elves and orcs (Bethesda at least didn't adopt the dwarves). I would also drop animal races unless they were different enough. I always thought most beast races were a cop out. (ugh. we need another race. how about...an eagle race, with wings? yeah sounds like a good idea. Just as long as they are different enough from the dragon race with wings, or the bat race) But I wouldn't just make replacement races for them either (in GW2, for example, the races are new but a lot of them seem to be old race stand-ins, ie Charr=Orcs, Sylvani=Elves). My favorite original creations from Bethesda are probably the Dwemer and the Sload (actually, the fact that the Dwemer were actually Elves kind of made them really unique for me, ironically enough, proof that if you change something enough it can actually become cool again). The Sload actually look like they're something that belongs in a sci-fi flick, but the fact that they are powerful magicians and necromancers and not wielding laser cannons makes them unique and a worthwhile unique addition.

[Kill Bill]

woops,wrong race.

[mimi_lys]

Yeah, in my own game, I would definitely dump elves and orcs (Bethesda at least didn't adopt the dwarves). I would also drop animal races unless they were different enough. I always thought most beast races were a cop out. (ugh. we need another race. how about...an eagle race, with wings? yeah sounds like a good idea. Just as long as they are different enough from the dragon race with wings, or the bat race) But I wouldn't just make replacement races for them either (in GW2, for example, the races are new but a lot of them seem to be old race stand-ins, ie Charr=Orcs, Sylvani=Elves). My favorite original creations from Bethesda are probably the Dwemer and the Sload (actually, the fact that the Dwemer were actually Elves kind of made them really unique for me, ironically enough, proof that if you change something enough it can actually become cool again). The Sload actually look like they're something that belongs in a sci-fi flick, but the fact that they are powerful magicians and necromancers and not wielding laser cannons makes them unique and a worthwhile unique addition.

Exactly.

...proof that if you change something enough it can actually become cool again... - which is why I think Orcs need to be changed. Right now they look and act like generic fantasy Orcs.

I get what you're saying Hellmouth, but that still seems incredibly similar to Tolkein to me. Orcs that arose from Elves by getting involved with the wrong guy, whether by choice or not. I still see no reason why that would result in the whole race being morphed into something hideous that bears little to no resemblance to Elves. But then again, i'm of the opinion that TES lore shouldn't be taken as fact. I see it as a mirror to our real-world religions: written by men, not gods, despite the fact that gods may or may not exist. Planets and moons in TES are clearly planets and moons from the orbits and lighting from the sun (showing they are indeed spherical), not astrals beings or however they are described by TES religious types. But that's why I love TES lore! It's debatable! You can come to a million different conclusions from all the content.

So when you say the Orcs were Elves whose god was eaten and pooped out, I just think, man, someone must think the Orcs are really ugly to write a history like that. I then realize that Bethesda made the Orcs ugly simply because... Orcs are associated with ugliness in fantasy. And that's unoriginal, hence me arguing for a change.

Phew. It's all opinions though, and I really do respect yours. It'll be interesting to see how they turn out in TES:V, because as Fiore1300 pointed out, they have been changing a lot over the different games.

[Stephanie Kemp]

wheres the option for orcs to kill off all the khajits and argonians?

[jessica robson]

I don't like the way things have turned out with Orcs. There was a good thing going, then it was all messed up. Now we find out that orcs were elves and dwarves were elves? It's as if they ran out of ideas and slapped every unique race with an elf label. I guess we should be glad that they didn't make the Argonians into elves.

The story of Orcs being fecal matter is outstandingly bad. The writing decision on that is so terrible that I want to find the guy responsible and tea-bag them for a week.

So after the agent of septim decides to shatter Akatosh by... well they never explained how the agent of septim shattered Akatosh, but he did somehow, and now everyone gets their ending! By some administrative cluster[censored], orcs are now accepted into society everywhere in Tamriel with almost no discrimination, after centuries of being treated like savage animals.

What I liked about them in Daggerfall was that they were a race of their own, with their own societal structure, fighting for respect against oppressive powers in the region. They had a tough society from being persecuted, and they were willing to do whatever it took to get what they wanted. Gortwog was blackmailing the house of Wayrest and their officers to get more concessions from their battle efforts. These are the orcs I want to see. They never should have been some cheap ploy to get two more playable races for Morrowind. Now they're either slightly grumpy merchants everywhere on the continent, or slightly goofy and lame.

They used to fight tooth and nail for everything they had, and now they were just shuffled into the regular lineup of TES races just to get more Morrowind players.

Hey, I called it. In Tes V, if there is an empire, whose to say it won't be an empire ruled by Orcs? Or whose to say the Orcs won't be the next 'Dwemer'? An iron city is certainly impressive in a world largely built of stone and wood.

It also sounds like an enormous mining effort just to get a rusty city that would crumble in the Orsinium weather in just a few years.

[Neliel Kudoh]

Exactly.

...proof that if you change something enough it can actually become cool again... - which is why I think Orcs need to be changed. Right now they look and act like generic fantasy Orcs.

I get what you're saying Hellmouth, but that still seems incredibly similar to Tolkein to me. Orcs that arose from Elves by getting involved with the wrong guy, whether by choice or not. I still see no reason why that would result in the whole race being morphed into something hideous that bears little to no resemblance to Elves. But then again, i'm of the opinion that TES lore shouldn't be taken as fact. I see it as a mirror to our real-world religions: written by men, not gods, despite the fact that gods may or may not exist. Planets and moons in TES are clearly planets and moons from the orbits and lighting from the sun (showing they are indeed spherical), not astrals beings or however they are described by TES religious types. But that's why I love TES lore! It's debatable! You can come to a million different conclusions from all the content.

So when you say the Orcs were Elves whose god was eaten and pooped out, I just think, man, someone must think the Orcs are really ugly to write a history like that. I then realize that Bethesda made the Orcs ugly simply because... Orcs are associated with ugliness in fantasy. And that's unoriginal, hence me arguing for a change.

Phew. It's all opinions though, and I really do respect yours. It'll be interesting to see how they turn out in TES:V, because as Fiore1300 pointed out, they have been changing a lot over the different games.

The TES lore needs to be taken in the same context as most religious text in the real world: a description of events told from a very specific "perspective" about events that were quite real and important at the time, but nobody really remembers any details that weren't directly spelled out in the text anymore, and the language itself has changed to the point where we only "think" we know what they were talking about in certain instances. In many cases, the cultures have totally different "expectations" of how an event should have been, and so the "details" would have been assumed by them and never mentioned, yet the story makes little sense to us without those points being made. References to common life or specific current events of the time no longer make sense, because the original meanings are no longer relevant or understood.

The story behind the creation of the orcs probably had some basis in fact, but the symbolism has usurped the original story and things have become "vague" enough that much of it makes no sense anymore. Does "swallowing" Trinimac really mean eating him, or does it refer to "absorbing" his following, or have some other meaning that's been lost over time?

[Dean Ashcroft]

"elf" is just what ignorant people in Tamriel call the mer to begin with.

It makes sense to me that mer is a different sentient species from man that happens to be more versatile. I don't see why making orcs a totally new species would really make them more unique.

Orcs will be orcs. If you're not gonna call them corrupted elves, then they might as well not be orcs at all.
You might as well get rid of them completely and replace them with something different.

As I've said before. Nothing is original. If you get mad at video games from stealing from classic fantasy, like Tolkien, it's only because you don't realize Tolkien stole all his ideas from earlier literature, and so on.

Orcs have always been ugly, gross cliches. If you're not gonna make the TES orc that, then you can't call it an orc.

@Kovacius:
religious writing is just ancient history.

In 500 BC, Herodotus was the first to compile past events and compare sources and try to give a full-circle, objective view of history.

Before then, the point was just to record the great deeds of past kings and scholars. They also didn't write this stuff down to be read, they remembered it and dictated it to a crowd.

So, the point was to emphasize a few important events or laws, then surround the rest with essentially fiction, so that they could create a dramatic story that would be memorable.

That's why Moses gets sent down the river, just like Hammurabi and romulus and remus. It actually is possible to separate the fiction from fact in ancient writing. You just have to get used to the patterns.

[Jack Moves]

Tolkien "stole" his "orc" idea from the "Uruks", which is what the "Huns" called themselves. The "Uruk-hai" were actually elite mounted bodyguards, so the Tolkien-esque idea of "warg riders" made a mockery of the original Asiatic horse-archers riding shaggy steppe ponies.