[Michael Korkia]

Tolkien "stole" his "orc" idea from the "Uruks", which is what the "Huns" called themselves. The "Uruk-hai" were actually elite mounted bodyguards, so the Tolkien-esque idea of "warg riders" made a mockery of the original Asiatic horse-archers riding shaggy steppe ponies.

Or rather, took a fighting force that was monstrous and savage by reputation and made them literally monstrous and savage. Also known as writing fiction.

[louise hamilton]

Tolkien "stole" his "orc" idea from the "Uruks", which is what the "Huns" called themselves. The "Uruk-hai" were actually elite mounted bodyguards, so the Tolkien-esque idea of "warg riders" made a mockery of the original Asiatic horse-archers riding shaggy steppe ponies.

Or rather, took a fighting force that was monstrous and savage by reputation and made them literally monstrous and savage. Also known as writing fiction.

And almost every Orc in fantasy henceforth was a green ugly brute (note that Orcs had never been used in fantasy writing before). I'd still argue that counts as Tolkien creating the Orc race as we know it.

You could easily argue that Elves weren't created by Tolkien, but before Tolkien transformed them into tall elegant beings, they were popularly known to be small mischievous creatures found in woodlands (Bosmer? )

@ Kovacius: Yeah, that's why I love TES lore! Most games just set down a history and lore for their world and use it as fact. TES games have a sense of realism in their lore in that it's so vague and fragmented. You could argue for anything in TES history. Those are some good points about the Orc history as well, which is why i'm not impressed with the reason for Orcs being so ugly and green, when they share a very common ancestor with the Altmer.

[Tania Bunic]

wheres the option for orcs to kill off all the khajits and argonians?

Again, you make M'aiq very sad.

[cosmo valerga]

The story of Orcs being fecal matter is outstandingly bad.

Maybe. But it is mythology. Basically, the Christian Mythos tells us people are just bags of dirt. How freaking lame. And you know how close [censored] is to dirt? Pretty close. Then Norse Mythos explains that people are actually just dead pieces of wood. And you know how close dead wood is to dirt? Not as close as [censored] is.

By some administrative cluster[censored], orcs are now accepted into society everywhere in Tamriel with almost no discrimination, after centuries of being treated like savage animals.

This. I KNOW RITE? This was never really explained, and truth be told, could have made a epic running story across the Elder Scrolls series. That is, the redemption of the Orcs. Heck, it could have even been the focus of an entire game. I totally agree. The Orcs were unique in part because they are so ostracized yet not totally fulfilling of their stereotype. I mean, the rest of Tamriel views them like Darkstorne does. Ugly and stupid and brutish and evil.

They never should have been some cheap ploy to get two more playable races for Morrowind

I think making the Orcs as a playable race was a cool idea, but it could have been implemented much, much, much better. It would have been neat to go back and play as an orc only to encounter extreme racism everywhere you turned. Some inns wouldn't allow you to stay the night. You wouldn't be allowed to join the fighter's guild, the mages guild would laugh you out of their doors, the Legion would take you but give you crap jobs. The only way you could find employment is with 'outlaw' guilds like the Dark Brotherhood or Thieves Guild, hence you begin perpetuating your own stereotype as your infamy climbs and people begin hating you even more.

(it should be worth noting, though, that the Mazoga quest had traces of racism. I mean, the count wouldn't even see Mazoga and had an outside stranger talk to her instead. And then, as a 'reward' he gave the player and Mazoga a dirt cheap hut outside the city and arbitrarily invented some sort of knightly order. Talk about trying to get rid of us.)

As I've said before. Nothing is original.

this and

That's why Moses gets sent down the river, just like Hammurabi and romulus and remus. It actually is possible to separate the fiction from fact in ancient writing. You just have to get used to the patterns.

this. Good stuff and important to remember.

they were popularly known to be small mischievous creatures found in woodlands (Bosmer? )

Altmer=Tolkien Elves
Bosmer=Traditional Elves+some Tolkien
Dunmer= DnD Drow
And a bunch of more unique stuff mixed into them. I never knew the Bosmer were supposed to be sharped-toothed, black-eyed, horned cannibals. Might have made them worth playing in Oblivion! I was just like "elf-archer-nature stereotype? meh."

Again, you make M'aiq very sad.

I know M'aiq. That guy hates those beast races.

[Brooke Turner]

Tolkien "stole" his "orc" idea from the "Uruks", which is what the "Huns" called themselves. The "Uruk-hai" were actually elite mounted bodyguards, so the Tolkien-esque idea of "warg riders" made a mockery of the original Asiatic horse-archers riding shaggy steppe ponies.

And Tolkien's elves were stolen from the Ethiopians, yes?

Who the ancient Greeks believed lived longer than other men and were the tallest and most beautiful and unmatched in skill with the bow. And they feasted with the gods and knew secrets that no other men know.

[Marilú]

I know M'aiq. That guy hates those beast races.

M'aiq thinks his people are beautiful. The Argonian people are beautiful as well. They look better than ever before.

[Kayla Keizer]

Fantasy games reuse races like Orcs , Elves and Dwarves because it makes it easy for players. They know what to expect from an Orc. They're ugly, brutish and stupid. It might be more creative to be more original but games that are truely creative and original like Empire of the Petal Throne are rarely huge commercial successes

TES has orcs because of its origins as a D&D ripoff. Happily it soon moved beyond just being that and so did its orcs but to justify their name Orcs have to retain something of the orc archetype. Given the options I'd rpefer orcs to be ugly. Brutish is a matter of culture. Many, perhaps most, orcs are brutish but its not an innate feature of the race in TES. Stupidity isn't part of the Orcish racial makeup at all in TES (well unless you consider it a part of the makeup of the Nords and Redguards as well). Orcish savants, bards and mages may be rare but the reasons for that are as much cultural as racial.

What does orc ugliness consist of? Green skin, tusks and piglike nasal features are part of it but the main part IMO is that they are different form man and mer ideas of beauty. That and the innate prejudice against them.

It would have been interesting if some of Fiore1300's ideas about how racism towards Orcs might show itself had been included in TES III or IV. Would've made them more interesting to play certainly.

[Alister Scott]

I think that the Orsimer are an interesting race, and I'd like to see them remain playable but with some differences.

Make the corruption of their beings more evident: make them like a cross between the Mer and beast races. Give them leathery, mottled skin, more earthy looking. Make the tusks large and powerful in males, and small but dangerous in females. I think it would be cool if their posture was also something of a combination between Mer and beast; make them slightly hunched, with loping strides. I would like it if Beth fleshed out their lore a bit more and in doing so made it possible to really give them a distinct aura, as they are arguably the game's most distinctly unique race (physically).

Basically, a combination of http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/codex/races/orc.gif (which shows them in a somewhat more imposing light) and Ephialtes from 300 (couldn't find a decent picture online, but I'm sure most of you have seen the movie and know who I'm talking about).

[Kayla Bee]

Personally, I think the coolest and most original "orc" race would be the Qunari from Dragon Age. They are Proud Warrior Race Guys but not super ugly, they have brown skin and white hair, and their also religious fanatics spreading an extremely oppressive, socialist philosophy. How many other orcs could be said to be religious fundamentalists? And yet they are not so far removed from "orc" style that they are entirely different.

[Erin S]

You could easily argue that Elves weren't created by Tolkien, but before Tolkien transformed them into tall elegant beings, they were popularly known to be small mischievous creatures found in woodlands (Bosmer? )

The elves were not created by Tolkien, he took it from Scandinavian mythology, especially Norwegian folklore and mythology.

Even my homeregion in southeast Norway was in the viking age called Alvheim, which means Elf-home, a part of the region is still called that today. It goes along to the story of the name, through old sagas, that we who live here are partly descendant from elves, and to justify that story in the viking age they argued that people here were prettier.

Elves in Norse mythology are quite like the elves in lord of the rings, arrogant and pretty.

Even all the kings of my homeregion from year 700-900 all had 'Alf'' (elf) in their name. One of the kings was Gandalf. Which is were from tolkien copied the name.
'Gand' is a scandinavian word for a certain type of magic used in the viking age. 'Alf' is elf, so Gandalf means "magician-elf".

A huge percent of all things in Tolkiens lord of the rings is from norse mythology and Scandinavian viking history.
The dwarves, the names, the rohan-culture, the magic, the elvish language, trolls, wraiths, dragons and more.

[George PUluse]

Fantasy games reuse races like Orcs , Elves and Dwarves because it makes it easy for players. They know what to expect from an Orc. They're ugly, brutish and stupid. It might be more creative to be more original but games that are truely creative and original like Empire of the Petal Throne are rarely huge commercial successes

I can believe that, but that doesn't make it okay. The same way Bethesda saying "Fantasy, to us, is riding around as a knight on horseback" is not okay. That's the extent of your imagination? A knight on horseback? And this is the extent of your racial creativeness? Practically copy/pasting from other books and games, just because "players are more familiar with it this way"?

TES:V will still be a huge commercial success if it's a TES themed tetris on the iPhone. The name is big enough to move units. Use that success to inject some real original fantasy into the gaming culture, and show the world that games can be just as original as the greatest books. Orsimer looking and acting like typical Orcs is not cool, and in my opinion is immersion-breaking. "Oh look, an Orc! I remember these guys from the bazillion other fantasy stories i've seen/read/played!"

So much of the TES universe is filled with originality, that it's a shame to see them fall down on such simple things.

The elves were not created by Tolkien, he took it from Scandinavian mythology, especially Norwegian folklore and mythology.

Even my homeregion in southeast Norway was in the viking age called Alvheim, which means Elf-home, a part of the region is still called that today. It goes along to the story of the name, through old sagas, that we who live here are partly descendant from elves, and to justify that story in the viking age they argued that people here were prettier.

Elves in Norse mythology are quite like the elves in lord of the rings, arrogant and pretty.

Even all the kings of my homeregion from year 700-900 all had 'Alf'' (elf) in their name. One of the kings was Gandalf. Which is were from tolkien copied the name.
'Gand' is a scandinavian word for a certain type of magic used in the viking age. 'Alf' is elf, so Gandalf means "magician-elf".

A huge percent of all things in Tolkiens lord of the rings is from norse mythology and Scandinavian viking history.
The dwarves, the names, the rohan-culture, the magic, the elvish language, trolls, wraiths, dragons and more.

Wow, that's fascinating. I never knew that. Thanks.

I knew most of Tolkien's world was borrowed from various awesome ancient mythologies, but I had no idea that other ancient cultures had Elves similar to Middle-Earth Elves. It is true that in Britain at least (and presumably America) Elves were typically seen as small mischievous creatures before Tolkien though. He started the change, and brought our views back to the much more awesome views of your ancestors.

[Gemma Flanagan]

I can believe that, but that doesn't make it okay. The same way Bethesda saying "Fantasy, to us, is riding around as a knight on horseback" is not okay. That's the extent of your imagination? A knight on horseback? And this is the extent of your racial creativeness? Practically copy/pasting from other books and games, just because "players are more familiar with it this way"?

TES:V will still be a huge commercial success if it's a TES themed tetris on the iPhone. The name is big enough to move units. Use that success to inject some real original fantasy into the gaming culture, and show the world that games can be just as original as the greatest books. Orsimer looking and acting like typical Orcs is not cool, and in my opinion is immersion-breaking. "Oh look, an Orc! I remember these guys from the bazillion other fantasy stories i've seen/read/played!"

So much of the TES universe is filled with originality, that it's a shame to see them fall down on such simple things.

I guess I'm more pessemistic than you. The most successful PnP FRPG was D&D, hardly a byword for originality, whilst more original game setting like Tekumel, Gargentihr or Glorantha (none of which had orcs) languish in obscurity.

[Hella Beast]

Well, whatever changes they may chose to do it had damn well better be realistically implemented. Yes, adding Orcs as a playable race was clunky, and Imperials more so, but removing them outright or use of un-subtle retcons is not going to help. See, Dunmer hate everyone and Imperials crack down on hate-crime heavy, so if you want to have severe anti-Orc racism, put it somewhere else.

And actually, Light Elves from Norse mythology are like Altmer. Dark Elves are like Tolkien Orcs/Drow. He took Dwarves nearly unchanged, and most players are human so I really only need to explain humans to your cat.

[Smokey]

Dark Elves are like Tolkien Orcs

Wow....really? That's umm, some comparison you got there....really on-the-mark...uncanny resemblances....

[SHAWNNA-KAY]

I guess I'm more pessemistic than you. The most successful PnP FRPG was D&D, hardly a byword for originality, whilst more original game setting like Tekumel, Gargentihr or Glorantha (none of which had orcs) languish in obscurity.

I've never heard of those games, and that really is a shame, because i'm sure I would have been interested if I'd heard of them. I remember seeing an obscure game called Vagrant Story by SquareSoft once, when all their marketing and advertising was being pumped into Final Fantasy 8. I bought both games, and enjoyed the originality, religion-questioning, and maturity of Vagrant Story's setting far more than Final Fantasy 8's. It remains my favourite game to this day, mainly for the incredible dialogue it contained: "Warping the minds of men and shepherding the masses has always been your church's domain. You lure sheep with empty miracles and a dead god." - and that's from the PS1 generation! I've yet to see a script that matches Vagrant Story's in modern games.

The advantage Bethesda has here is that their games are well known, and they have the money to launch a big marketing campaign. Originality in TES:V will not go unnoticed, and it's their chance to breathe life into the fantasy setting that is getting a little stale in today's games. I remember Bioware specifically stating that they were "re-inventing fantasy" with Dragon Age. Yet we got Men, Elves, and Scottish Dwarves living in a mountain. Really Bioware?

Dark Elves are like Tolkien Orcs/Drow.

Wow....really? That's umm, some comparison you got there....really on-the-mark...uncanny resemblances....

Yeah, i've got to agree with Fiore1300. They do share a lot of resemblance with the Drow in appearance, obviously, but their culture is incredible. The houses, the ashlanders, their architecture (specifically in the ash-storms regions of Vvardenfall) were all incredible. It's originality like this that leaves me baffled at the stereotypical Orcs.

Perhaps that opens up another question. If the only way to bring some incredible originality into the Orc race, on par with the Dunmer and Khajiit, is to majorly retcon the race... then would you like that change or not? Obviously originality is great, but butchering current lore is always painful and jarring. Hopefully there is a balance between the two that can be found.

[Naazhe Perezz]

I've never heard of those games, and that really is a shame, because i'm sure I would have been interested if I'd heard of them. I remember seeing an obscure game called Vagrant Story by SquareSoft once, when all their marketing and advertising was being pumped into Final Fantasy 8. I bought both games, and enjoyed the originality, religion-questioning, and maturity of Vagrant Story's setting far more than Final Fantasy 8's. It remains my favourite game to this day, mainly for the incredible dialogue it contained: "Warping the minds of men and shepherding the masses has always been your church's domain. You lure sheep with empty miracles and a dead god." - and that's from the PS1 generation! I've yet to see a script that matches Vagrant Story's in modern games.

Well they were all 70/80/90s PnP settings

http://www.glorantha.com/ is still going. It has some resemblance to TES in that it takes a lot from traditional fantasy but reworks it. The amount of lore developed for it is amazing.

http://www.tekumel.com/ is largely the work of Professor M.A.R. Barker. What Tolkien did with Norse mythology Barker did with Indian, Middle Eastern and Meso-American mythology.

http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/Miscellaneous/Gargentihr_Review.html was published by a small Scottish company. The 2 playable races are human, the Karro (think 16th century Spanish religious fanaticism, 19th century British scientific inquiry and both group's imperialism), and the Ha'esh (opressed natives with a touch of mysticism), and theres a slew of other non-playable human and non-human races but even the humans are quite alien.

All 3 were created by enthusiasts as much for themselves as for anyone else. In that they're like the original TES. Sure, Bethesda has gamers working for it, some of whom may be enthusiastic about TES and its lore, but I don't think they make the decisions anymore.

The advantage Bethesda has here is that their games are well known, and they have the money to launch a big marketing campaign. Originality in TES:V will not go unnoticed, and it's their chance to breathe life into the fantasy setting that is getting a little stale in today's games. I remember Bioware specifically stating that they were "re-inventing fantasy" with Dragon Age. Yet we got Men, Elves, and Scottish Dwarves living in a mountain. Really Bioware?

Agree entirely with this, just not sure what is now a fairly large and successful company will be prepared to take the risk of being original.

Yeah, i've got to agree with Fiore1300. They do share a lot of resemblance with the Drow in appearance, obviously, but their culture is incredible. The houses, the ashlanders, their architecture (specifically in the ash-storms regions of Vvardenfall) were all incredible. It's originality like this that leaves me baffled at the stereotypical Orcs.

Perhaps that opens up another question. If the only way to bring some incredible originality into the Orc race, on par with the Dunmer and Khajiit, is to majorly retcon the race... then would you like that change or not? Obviously originality is great, but butchering current lore is always painful and jarring. Hopefully there is a balance between the two that can be found.

Rather depends what the result is. I'm glad TES orcs have evolved from just D&D style orcs like in Arena. I'm not against retconning if it adds something extra. Changing orcs just because people (myself included) don't like playing ugly characters well I don't think that qualifies. We can always mod them to something we prefer appearance-wise (and I do).

[noa zarfati]

All I can say is, I like my ugly races. I like playing ugly, brutish races, and always have at least 3 ugly looking race characters. I would never have played as a troll, undead, chaos mutant and orc in EQ, WoW, and WAR, respectively, if the races didn't look as though they were beaten with an ugly stick repeatedly. Orcs, by virtue of being children of poop, should also have their appearance be considered ugly.

A lot of my minor to major characters have always been orcs in OB and MW, because of their ugly and brutal looks. They are not a race for everyone, just like how some people only like to play pretty races, and those who abhor pretty races. There are those, like me, who prefer to play races who look like they climbed recently out of the primordial ooze and had their faces beaten with rocks. By "sixifying " or "prettying" the orcs, they lose that ugly edge a bunch of us like.

If you want pretty green races, mod the orcs. For the rest of us, keep them ugly or uglier.

[John Moore]

Yeah, i've got to agree with Fiore1300. They do share a lot of resemblance with the Drow in appearance, obviously, but their culture is incredible. The houses, the ashlanders, their architecture (specifically in the ash-storms regions of Vvardenfall) were all incredible. It's originality like this that leaves me baffled at the stereotypical Orcs.

Perhaps that opens up another question. If the only way to bring some incredible originality into the Orc race, on par with the Dunmer and Khajiit, is to majorly retcon the race... then would you like that change or not? Obviously originality is great, but butchering current lore is always painful and jarring. Hopefully there is a balance between the two that can be found.

What exactly is stereotypical about intelligent, proud, politically adept warriors and craftsmen who just happen to have green skin and tusks?The reason that the Dunmer seem so original now is that we've seen the heart of their civilization, had a chance to walk around their cities, take part in their politics, and experience their culture. Before that, they were just dark-skinned, red-eyed elves who followed an evil spider goddess. Sound familiar?

As for the transformation of the Orcs, I think a logical assumption to make from the established lore is that Boethiah cursed them for their association with his enemy (Trinimac), much in the same way that Azura cursed the Chimer for the Tribunal's betrayal of Nerevar. Boethiah, despite being one of the "good Daedra" of the Dunmer, really isn't all that nice of a guy (or girl, whatever). Literally crapping all over their religion was the injury, but warping them to match their fallen god was the added insult.

[Jessie Butterfield]

No, I meant that in Norse Mythology Dark elves are Tolkien orcs. In TES they are most certainly not. Whoops. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Frank Firefly]

What exactly is stereotypical about intelligent, proud, politically adept warriors and craftsmen?

Nothing at all! But the Orcs certainly aren't portrayed as intelligent in TES. I gave the example earlier of an Orc found outside Caldera who had left a note saying to "find him behind a rock, near a tree"... and then rewarded the player after finishing his quest by saying something along the lines of: "Stupid person. Have this rock. Huhuhuhu, you thought I'd actually reward you?" - only to find out that the rock is a diamond... There's also the Dark Brotherhood Orc in Oblivion who can't grasp subtlety and just enjoys bashing skulls with a childish sense of delight. And don't forgot Lord Rugdumph who can't pronounce a single word properly if it's over five letters in length.

I've yet to see them presented more for politcal prowess and pride than for lack of intelligence and wit.

The reason that the Dunmer seem so original now is that we've seen the heart of their civilization, had a chance to walk around their cities, take part in their politics, and experience their culture.

That's a great point. I've never played Daggerfall properly since I started with Morrowind. That also gives me hope that both the Orcs and Nords will be fleshed out and given a sense of real originality as the games focus on their provinces.

As for the transformation of the Orcs, I think a logical assumption to make from the established lore is that Boethiah cursed them for their association with his enemy (Trinimac), much in the same way that Azura cursed the Chimer for the Tribunal's betrayal of Nerevar. Boethiah, despite being one of the "good Daedra" of the Dunmer, really isn't all that nice of a guy (or girl, whatever). Literally crapping all over their religion was the injury, but warping them to match their fallen god was the added insult.

Nice interpretation. This thread is inspiring me to check out the UESP and Imperial Library for info on Orc lore. I'd like to know more about them before the metamorphosis, as well as any hints at their culture in Orsinium.

[Breanna Van Dijk]

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orsinium
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:How_Orsinium_Passed_to_the_Orcs

http://uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Gortwog
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Duma_gro-Lag
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Sharn_gra-Muzgob
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Base_Weapons (All of the descriptions on this page come from an Orc blacksmith )
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Agronak_gro-Malog
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Bugak_gro-Bol

[Cassie Boyle]

You forgot http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Wraith%27s_Wedding_Dowry. Well, not the best in orc intelligence, but it shows they live, love, and aren't clumsy as often portrayed.