[Neko Jenny]

I really hated Oblivion's fast travel options, as it really broke immersion to me. My options revolved around walking, or using the map to fast travel to the city I was trying to reach. Not that I minded walking, but I would have liked another option besides just clicking from city to city.

Morrowind had the best option in my opinion. You could still fast travel, but it was only between given points, and you had to pay. If you didn't like it, you could walk, but it provided a greater challenge at lower levels, and still provided a challenge as some cities were only accessible from certain modes of transportation. Take Hla Oad for instance. If you were going to travel to there, it had to be by boat, or you were walking. This I liked, as it was more fun to only be brought a part of the way. Sure, from Seyda Neen, I could take the Silt Strider to Vivec, and then the boat to Ebonheart and from there over to Hla Oad, but I just enjoyed walking along the Odai River from Balmora, up and over the Odai Plateau, and then to the coast where Hla Oad was located.

Honestly, I think a caravan could make a good excuse for Fast Travel between cities. Hell, you can even wave the cost if you volunteer to be a guard for the caravan. Just add in a random chance for bandit attacks. People in both camps are happy.

The toggle option does seem a little... silly to be honest. But if there is a difficulty changer, or options you can select to make the game become more "hardcoe" with survival aspects, then it could work, but I have to wonder how the map would look, because it would still be designed with fast travel as an option. It would look as ridiculous as the Oblivion interface looked on the PC.

But one thing I would really like to see: the removal of the ability to fast travel from anywhere to anywhere without the use of spells. Oblivion is the only RPG I have played where I can crawl out of a dungeon, barely alive, no supplies, and just poof to town safe and sound, without the use of any spell, or scroll. Optional or not... its just... baffling that its a possibility.

[chirsty aggas]

Well now we know there will be random encounters in the wild, so now there is a reason to not use fast travel Everyone wins. Though I get the feeling people will always have a problem. Oh well.

[Eliza Potter]

Seriously, if you can't resist clicking the "Fast Travel" button, I highly doubt you have the willpower to refrain from clicking the "Turn Fast Travel On" button.

I'm all for a Morrowind style alternative, but what's the point of having an option to turn it off??

Again and again people miss the whole point:

Oblivion/Fallout/ and likely Skyrim are all designed with the thought that people are going to use Fast Travel. For some reason BGS is ignorant to the fact some people don't like to have their hand held as they play complex RPGs (also shown in the idiotic quest arrow). Thus, they don't add an alternative to instant, go anywhere fast travel and don't give you an option to disable it. This is pure stupidity, or laziness on Bethesda's part.

So how does adding an option to turn fast travel off change things? Well since there is no alternative other then to walk everywhere, they would need to add some... probably similar to Morrowind. Thus, if Morrowind style fast travel is added, players could turn off the Oblivion style fast travel and not be forced to walk everywhere. So yes, having an option to turn it off would make all the difference in the world.

It won't happen of course since Bethesda has a need to make sure all their games appeal to the most laid back, lazy, casual gamer the would has ever seen... and of course its too much work to throw a few (optional) bones to the other end of the spectrum.

[Sammykins]

Again and again people miss the whole point:

Oblivion/Fallout/ and likely Skyrim are all designed with the thought that people are going to use Fast Travel. For some reason BGS is ignorant to the fact some people don't like to have their hand held as they play complex RPGs (also shown in the idiotic quest arrow). Thus, they don't add an alternative to instant, go anywhere fast travel and don't give you an option to disable it. This is pure stupidity, or laziness on Bethesda's part.

So how does adding an option to turn fast travel off change things? Well since there is no alternative other then to walk everywhere, they would need to add some... probably similar to Morrowind. Thus, if Morrowind style fast travel is added, players could turn off the Oblivion style fast travel and not be forced to walk everywhere. So yes, having an option to turn it off would make all the difference in the world.

It won't happen of course since Bethesda has a need to make sure all their games appeal to the most laid back, lazy, casual gamer the would has ever seen... and of course its too much work to throw a few (optional) bones to the other end of the spectrum.

Or, you could have all of the above without having an option to turn fast travel off?? Having an option to turn fast travel off does not mean they will cater for players that want a more Morrowindesque experience, and likewise creating a more Morrowindesque fast travel system does not mean they will give you an option to turn fast travel off. The two are not intrinsically linked.

Simply having an option to turn fast travel on means they are catering for people that are planning on using fast travel.

[Alan Whiston]

Well now we know there will be random encounters in the wild, so now there is a reason to not use fast travel Everyone wins. Though I get the feeling people will always have a problem. Oh well.

Fear not. I will always find something to complain about.

If we didn't complain, though, then the franchise would never improve. You'll thank us one day :turned:

[Jenna Fields]

Because, being the business that Bethesda is (albeit one of the less money grabby ones), they want to please as many people as possible. A lot of people want to be able to just click and fast travel somewhere. A lot of other people want to be able to pay someone to take them somewhere. Seeing as both are completely optional, it makes sense to have both.

And they could still click and teleport to wherever they want by not turning off fast travel...
Why are we even discussing this? It's not like it costs vast amounts of time to implement a toggle option. <_<

[Ladymorphine]

There is a word for the "Morrowind-style" fast travel:

intradiegetic

Meaning "inside the narrative". Extradiegetic is its opposite; Oblivion's fast travel would be qualified as such.

I want intradiegetic fast travel for better immersion.

[Cheryl Rice]

Fear not. I will always find something to complain about.

If we didn't complain, though, then the franchise would never improve. You'll thank us one day :turned:

:D Perhaps your right.

[john page]

There is a word for the "Morrowind-style" fast travel:

intradiegetic

Meaning "inside the narrative". Extradiegetic is its opposite; Oblivion's fast travel would be qualified as such.

I want intradiegetic fast travel for better immersion.

*commits to memory*

This should give me the upper hand in terms of illusions of intelligence in future iterations of this debate, which is all one can really hope for in life. Thank you.

[Roy Harris]

*commits to memory*

This should give me the upper hand in terms of illusions of intelligence in future iterations of this debate, which is all one can really hope for in life. Thank you.

You are welcome.

[TIhIsmc L Griot]

Solution to the fast travel system : Morrowind style.

[jason worrell]

Oh dear, not this again.

Seriously, give it a rest. I wonder when we'll finally get a day when this thread doesn't show up. Stop moaning and be grateful for the things that they DO put in.

[Shannon Marie Jones]

I guess I'll throw my idea of a fast travel alternate.

The use of a Warp Point System

Here's how it goes lore wise a mage created the system and his descendent needs your help fixing it. It leads to a quest where you have to go find a missing artifact. Once you find the artifact you return to the mage and he gives you an item that allows you to use the warp point system. Now here's how the system works. Every town will have at least one warp point and other important places will have a warp point example Throat Of The World. They're around 15-20 warp points all together, However the only way you can fast travel with the warp point system is if you.

A, You already discovered the Warp Point that your at.
B, The Warp Point that you want to warp to has already been discovered by you.
C, You can only Travel from one warp point to another, you can't just exit cave then click on the map for the warp point. No you have to be at a warp point which will allow you to fast travel to any other warp points that have already been discovered by you. The way you discover a warp point is you just click on it and a message will pop up, "Warp Point Unlocked at X Location".

D, Also you can't be in combat, you have to kill all the enemies or evade them long enough so that they'll stop chasing you in order to use the warp point.

[Trent Theriot]

I guess I'll throw my idea of a fast travel alternate.

The use of a Warp Point System

Here's how it goes lore wise a mage created the system and his descendent needs your help fixing it. It leads to a quest where you have to go find a missing artifact. Once you find the artifact you return to the mage and he gives you an item that allows you to use the warp point system. Now here's how the system works. Every town will have at least one warp point and other important places will have a warp point example Throat Of The World. They're around 15-20 warp points all together, However the only way you can fast travel with the warp point system is if you.

A, You already discovered the Warp Point that your at.
B, The Warp Point that you want to warp to has already been discovered by you.
C, You can only Travel from one warp point to another, you can't just exit cave then click on the map for the warp point. No you have to be at a warp point which will allow you to fast travel to any other warp points that have already been discovered by you. The way you discover a warp point is you just click on it and a message will pop up, "Warp Point Unlocked at X Location".

D, Also you can't be in combat, you have to kill all the enemies or evade them long enough so that they'll stop chasing you in order to use the warp point.

I'd be okay with that.

[Dan Wright]

I'd love stage coaches a la RDR. Just having a carriage would be awesome, also if they incorporated (or there was modded in) a wagon, you could have a house on the go, it'd be great.

[lexy]

I hope you are being sarcastic.

Cost of mark/recall: Having to set the mark in the first place. Cost of magicka at least if it didn't regenerate. Typically a one way thing, you'd have to use other methods to get back to the dungeon if you require more runs. Not needed in OB due fast travel.

Cost of intervention: You may not end up very close to where you want to go. Cost of magicka at least if it didn't regenerate. Typically an escape thing to get out of trouble. Not needed in OB as you never yelled "yulp", everything was scaled.

Cost of Morrowind fast travel: Money (but cheap). Having to figure out how the routes (boats and striders) are made up, what goes where etc. Wasn't they also available only at certain days (making beds more useful)? Figuring out how the propylon chambers worked out, and obtaining the master index, it felt like a hidden quest.

Cost of Oblivion fast travel: None at all. In fact it comes with an exploit where you can ignore spells and potions running out of juice. One second feather and go everywhere - riiiiight - good gameplay!

Morrowind reduced Daggerfalls fast travel system to what it had because the game world was endlessly smaller in comparison. And it was a great decision. It worked. Most people were happy with it, or at least endured it. Once you had mapped out everything, you had done a fair bit of traveling, and you'd typically possess boots of blinding speed and had levitation and invisibility as well, reducing the need for these travel systems.

Now comes Oblivion with a slightly larger world than Morrowind. To attract more people that have no intentions of role playing but speed through everything to see the most graphics in the least amount of time - they let magicka regenerate. No cost in mark/recall, so just remove that. Levitation can't be available due town cells, so just remove that. Bah, let's just remove everything, we're on a schedule, and nobody will miss it if we make click & appear travel - great decision BGS, just... Great! Now we're stuck with spoiled brats who doesn't even want to PAY for fast travel, I mean, wtf happened?

Fast travel is needed, nobody argues that. It just have to feel natural, like it's part of the game. It should have a cost, and my suggestion has always been to let the user choose what the cost is:
* By foot (or horse), fast or slow, where slow is safe, fast is unsafe (risking fights), and is totally free. Like today, but without the by foot exploits.
* Automatic use of found travel services which also can cost time if not open for service every day, but you'll be safe.
* Night or day or both, preferring inns or camps, automatic exploration when avoiding contact - lot's of "possible" options if you want to go all the way, but not needed for the game. Works better for larger game worlds with focus on survival, but worth a thought. Day and night might be worth it for a vampire player. Hook it up with seasons (longer or shorter days) and it becomes even more important.

That will be the fast travel options. Hard core players like me will typically use travel services manually like we did in Morrowind, and occasionally use fast travel system for multi runs. But when I'm using it now, it won't feel like I'm cheating, since I'm setting options if I want to travel unsafe and risk a fight, or supersafe and pay with money and time. Paying with money and time may not be the best option if you're on a time limited quest. I can naturally also do it completely manually and walk/ride if that is my game.

I can think of many quests that over time improves the quality of fast travel services, like i.e. you have to clear a route for bandits and bandit camps before the route can be utilized, or running around hiring riders for dilligence services so they can be open for business more days in the week etc. It improves the living world we play in, in that what we do affect what we can use. Maybe after some time, some other adventurer did it instead? Who knows... Endless possibilities.

---

The Warp point sounds interesting. It could replace the propylon chamber system, or just add to it. But it shouldn't be the only fast travel system in the game.

[Hayley Bristow]

Or, you could have all of the above without having an option to turn fast travel off?? Having an option to turn fast travel off does not mean they will cater for players that want a more Morrowindesque experience, and likewise creating a more Morrowindesque fast travel system does not mean they will give you an option to turn fast travel off. The two are not intrinsically linked.

Simply having an option to turn fast travel on means they are catering for people that are planning on using fast travel.

I don't get your point. What are you arguing for?
This thread is based on the belief that there will be fast-travel in Skyrim no matter what we do. So people say, "At least give us intradiegetic fast-travel as an alternative to your simple gameplay mechanic!". That's the first compromise this thread is about. But now a part of the people who say that also fears a) that quests might be designed with fast-travel in mind and b ) that they might be tempted to use fast-travel even though they don't like it*. For them, the compromise is to at least add one more barrier between the fast-travel option and them (and the game designers).
Sure, it's likely that it won't help - but it doesn't hurt anyone either! So I don't understand why you argue so vehemently against this idea. It's a simple button in the Gameplay options, right beneath "Subtitles On/Off" - "Extradiegetic Fast-Travel On/Off".

AuthenticM: Alright I tested the two words. They rock. Thanks, man. I was growing sick of all the MW-Style, OB-Style, DF-Style... as if we're some gangster rappers representing our hoods. :toughninja:

*) By the way, to all the people who say that those who are tempted by fast-travel are "weak human beings". What the hell. Only Godwin's Law prevents me from bringing up the argument that immediately suggests itself here.
(I'm not flaming here - just telling you to consider what you're saying, especially when you exaggerate it in the way you do, using it as an insult and everything.)

[Helen Quill]

Fast travel is needed, nobody argues that. It just have to feel natural, like it's part of the game. It should have a cost, and my suggestion has always been to let the user choose what the cost is:
* By foot (or horse), fast or slow, where slow is safe, fast is unsafe (risking fights), and is totally free. Like today, but without the by foot exploits.
* Automatic use of found travel services which also can cost time if not open for service every day, but you'll be safe.
* Night or day or both, preferring inns or camps, automatic exploration when avoiding contact - lot's of "possible" options if you want to go all the way, but not needed for the game. Works better for larger game worlds with focus on survival, but worth a thought. Day and night might be worth it for a vampire player. Hook it up with seasons (longer or shorter days) and it becomes even more important.

Something like this was in Daggerfall. It really suited that game due to the immense size of the landmass. In Skyrim, it may be a bit lost though. I wouldn't expect it to take more then a few days to walk from one end of Skyrim to the other, so planning out the travel speed, where to rest, etc., may be a little unnecessary. Although it does make me think of a fast travel option that can please both parties

Travel Planning
Say I want to travel from... Solitude to Windhelm. I can open up a travel dialogue, and select Windhelm as my destination. It will then mark it on a compass or something. But the game will then detect that it will take 3 days to hike, and maybe even give the probability of bandit attacks, based on the areas I'll travel through. I can then make waypoints to various inns, towns, or even caves along the way, and these will also show up on my compass. It provides a nice immersive role-playing option for those of us who want to use it, but it can also handle the fast travel in a manner that still will please fans of Oblivion's fast travel, but provide a complexity for those of us who want more.

EDIT: It can also allow you to plan from the wilderness. I can be wandering around, and decide that I need to get to Winter Hold. I can use this same dialogue box/interface/whatever to plot my trip direct, or even to the nearest town, which can then let me hook it up to the hypothetical transport network.

[Mark]

I think the first question should be how we define fast travel?

Is fast travel a magic door that takes you from A to B with no time gone by? (or very little time)
Is fast travel just another way of getting you from A to B in the same amount of time it would have taken you to run?
Is fast travel a way of avoiding random encounters, in that you are traveling under protection of a caravan?
Could you actually get from A to B faster by owning a horse and riding yourself, but taking the risk of random encounters?

I'm all for fast travel, and the option to not use it if you don't like it.

If the purpose is to save RL time and save you the annoyance of having to travel, then the Oblivion way works just fine. No hassle, no waste of time.

I think it would add a ton of flavor if you could get on a carriage and enjoy the scenery as you journey through the country side. But that would be the same as as running/riding yourself except you didn't have to touch anything.

I think fast travel should be an optional way of getting from A to B faster than you could by yourself, thus saving in-game time and RL time both. Options could be caravans, carriages, ships and even mage guild teleporters. And it should cost money. But I can also see how that would be annoying if you didn't have the money to fast travel, and traveling by foot across the map to complete a quest would be really really annoying to you. It would force you to enjoy the scenery and risk random encounters, but to me, that's a huge part of TES.

So to sum up, my vote goes to paid for fast travel options, maybe even with a short 10 second video clip showing pieces of the journey (although that would probably get old fast). The fast travel you pay for should be safe (no random encounters). Then you could also fast travel for free, on your own, which should take a bit longer and include the risk of random encounters. I think that would add the flavor I'd like, while at the same time being somewhat realistic and practical for game play purposes.

[Isaiah Burdeau]

Something like this was in Daggerfall. It really suited that game due to the immense size of the landmass. In Skyrim, it may be a bit lost though. I wouldn't expect it to take more then a few days to walk from one end of Skyrim to the other, so planning out the travel speed, where to rest, etc., may be a little unnecessary. Although it does make me think of a fast travel option that can please both parties

Travel Planning
Say I want to travel from... Solitude to Windhelm. I can open up a travel dialogue, and select Windhelm as my destination. It will then mark it on a compass or something. But the game will then detect that it will take 3 days to hike, and maybe even give the probability of bandit attacks, based on the areas I'll travel through. I can then make waypoints to various inns, towns, or even caves along the way, and these will also show up on my compass. It provides a nice immersive role-playing option for those of us who want to use it, but it can also handle the fast travel in a manner that still will please fans of Oblivion's fast travel, but provide a complexity for those of us who want more.

EDIT: It can also allow you to plan from the wilderness. I can be wandering around, and decide that I need to get to Winter Hold. I can use this same dialogue box/interface/whatever to plot my trip direct, or even to the nearest town, which can then let me hook it up to the hypothetical transport network.

I really like the travel planning idea. The use of inns and rest stops could reduce the risks but in turn also make you pay for accommodation. That gives you the option of doing it for free or pay a bit and reduce your risks. Good idea.

[Tom Flanagan]

Oh dear, not this again.

Seriously, give it a rest. I wonder when we'll finally get a day when this thread doesn't show up. Stop moaning and be grateful for the things that they DO put in.

Lol i'm the paying customer i'm moaning in advance

[Channing]

Oh dear, not this again.

Seriously, give it a rest. I wonder when we'll finally get a day when this thread doesn't show up. Stop moaning and be grateful for the things that they DO put in.

The cry of the apathetic?

[Crystal Clarke]

Oh here we go again.

Why can't you just use bows and pretend that you're shooting a crossbow?
Why can't you just pretend that you don't start in prison?
Why can't you just pretend that you can't join every guild in the game without penalties?
Why can't you just pretend that fast travel doesn't exist, even though the game is build around people using it?
Why can't you just sing over the ending of the game if you don't like it?
Why can't you just pretend that that sword is a spear?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. My imagination has a limit on the extent to which it can ignore what the game is telling me. "Just pretend" is not a viable solution to bad game design, and I wish people would stop spouting it.

well..... why can't you?

[roxxii lenaghan]

well..... why can't you?

People's suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

[Rachell Katherine]

well..... why can't you?

I already answered that in the very post that you quoted...