The War of the Red Diamond : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:41 pm

I have a few questions concerning the conflicting information given about the War of the Red Diamond. I'm hoping that maybe the forum can help me out.

- According to the Imperial Library’s http://www.imperial-library.info/content/third-era, Emperor Antiochus Septim dies in the year 3E 119. However, in http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-biography-wolf-queen the year is put at 3E 112. Which is it?

- Also, according to BotWQ, Kityra II is captured in 3E 114, but the timeline clearly states that this event doesn’t happen until 3E 121. Am I to believe from this that BotWQ is wrong in its estimation of dates?

- Furthermore, in http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-madness-pelagius we are told that when Prince Magnus allied himself with Prince Cephorus against the usurper Uriel III he brought the wrath of the Wolf Queen down on Wayrest. His son, Pelagius III, fled with his brothers, sisters, and a mother identified as Utheilla (of the Direnni line) to the Isle of Balfiera where he spent the rest of his childhood. The problem with this is that, according to http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-wolf-queen-book-four, Magnus ruled in Lilmoth which, if I can read a map correctly, lies at the southern tip of Black Marsh! His wife is also identified as the Cyrodiil Queen of Lilmoth, a woman named Hellena. Maybe Magnus was visiting his brother to finalize plans for their coordinated attacks or some such, but I find it hard to believe that he would drag his wife and children halfway across Tamriel on the eve of civil war. That also doesn’t account for the real name and background of his wife.

» Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:29 am

Hah, wouldn't be the first time. The source material is notorious for it's typos and scribes errors. For ease and clarity I'm going to try to cover this in several posts.

- According to the Imperial Library’s http://www.imperial-library.info/content/third-era, Emperor Antiochus Septim dies in the year 3E 119. However, in http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-biography-wolf-queen the year is put at 3E 112. Which is it?

3E 119 For twenty-one years, The Emperor Antiochus Septim ruled Tamriel, and proved an able leader despite his moral laxity.- The Wolf Queen, Book Five

Dead in 3E 119.

The man who would be Emperor of all Tamriel was born Thoriz Pelagius Septim, a prince of the royal family of Wayrest in 3E 119 at the end of the glorious reign of his uncle, Antiochus I. Wayrest had been showered by much preference during the years before Pelagius' birth, for King Magnus was Antiochus' favorite brother. - The Madness of Pelagius

This seems to suggest that Antiochus died in 3E 119.

For thirteen years, Antiochus ruled Tamriel, and proved an able leader despite his moral laxity. Several historians point to proof that Potema cast the spell that ended her brother's life, but evidence one way or another is lost in the sands of time. In any event, both she and her son Uriel were visiting the Imperial court in 3E 112 when Antiochus died, and immediately challenged the rule of his daughter and heir, Kintyra.- Biography of the Wolf Queen

While this suggest he was murdered in 3E 112.

I don't know for certain which it is, but the Biography of the Wolf Queen has many other errors. So I would think the Madness of Pelagius and The Wolf Queen have it correct.

edit:

Updated timeline at TIL to include a mention of 3E 112.

» Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:16 am

- Also, according to BotWQ, Kityra II is captured in 3E 114, but the timeline clearly states that this event doesn’t happen until 3E 121. Am I to believe from this that BotWQ is wrong in its estimation of dates?

3E 121

(...)

"All your men are dead," smiled Potema. "But there was no battle here. Merely quiet and efficient assassination. There will be battles ahead, against Modellus in the Dragontail Mountains and against the remnants of the Imperial Army in the City. I'll send you regular updates on the progress of the war."

"So I am to be kept here as your hostage?" asked Kintyra, flatly, suddenly aware of the solidity of the stones and the great height of her tower room. "Damn you, look at me! I am your Empress!"

"Think of it this way, I'm taking you from being a fifth rate ruler to a first rate martyr," said Potema with a wink. "But I understand if you don't want to thank me for that." - The Wolf Queen, Book Six

The first attack occurred in the Iliac Bay region, which separates High Rock and Hammerfell. Kintyra's entourage was massacred and the Empress taken captive. For two years, Kintyra II languished in an Imperial prison believed to be somewhere in Glenpoint or Glenmoril before she was slain in her cell under mysterious circumstances. The second attack was on a series of Imperial garrisons along the coastal Morrowind islands. The Empress' consort Kontin Arynx fell defending the forts. The third and final attack was a siege of the Imperial City itself, occurring after the Elder Council had split up the army to attack western High Rock and eastern Morrowind. The weakened government had little defence against Uriel's determined aggression, and capitulated after only a fortnight of resistance. Uriel took the throne that same evening and proclaimed himself Uriel III, Emperor of Tamriel. The year was 3E 121. Thus began the War of the Red Diamond - A Brief History of the Empire

Details of the War of the Red Diamond are included in other histories: we need not recount the Empress Kintyra II's capture and eventual execution in High Rock in the year 3E 114, nor the ascension of Potema's son, Uriel III, seven years later. Her surviving brothers, Cephorus and Magnus, fought the Emperor and his mother for years, tearing the Empire apart in a civil war. - Biography of the Wolf Queen

Have your pick. I would prefer 3E 121 for the same reason as above.

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Can some one else sort out the third one?

» Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:48 pm

- According to the Imperial Library’s http://www.imperial-library.info/content/third-era, Emperor Antiochus Septim dies in the year 3E 119. However, in http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-biography-wolf-queen the year is put at 3E 112. Which is it?

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/840109-time-and-place-inconsistencies/page__p__12237143#entry12237143 the date 3E 119 is most likely correct.

edit: Also from the same post - The Madness of Pelagius is wrong about Pelagius and his mother.

» Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:03 am

- Furthermore, in http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-madness-pelagius we are told that when Prince Magnus allied himself with Prince Cephorus against the usurper Uriel III he brought the wrath of the Wolf Queen down on Wayrest. His son, Pelagius III, fled with his brothers, sisters, and a mother identified as Utheilla (of the Direnni line) to the Isle of Balfiera where he spent the rest of his childhood. The problem with this is that, according to http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-wolf-queen-book-four, Magnus ruled in Lilmoth which, if I can read a map correctly, lies at the southern tip of Black Marsh! His wife is also identified as the Cyrodiil Queen of Lilmoth, a woman named Hellena. Maybe Magnus was visiting his brother to finalize plans for their coordinated attacks or some such, but I find it hard to believe that he would drag his wife and children halfway across Tamriel on the eve of civil war. That also doesn’t account for the real name and background of his wife.

I once tried to sort all this out for a giant history of the Empire I wrote around the time Oblivion came out, but I can't for the life of me remember the details now. Most of the books that were written for Daggerfall, including a Brief History of the Empire and the Madness of Pelagius, seemed to make a point of constantly putting members of the Imperial family in Wayrest, maybe because the other provinces just weren't very fleshed out yet, and, hey, Wayrest was in the game, so why not? I think Magnus being married to the Queen of Lilmoth makes more sense in the context of the series as it has evolved. Since the War of the Red Diamond was primarily a Western Tamriel affair, it stands to reason that special measures were in place to keep the East loyal during those years--a Septim in Black Marsh is probably a good move.

Really though, when it comes down to dates and things of that nature, they're not super important in either real or made-up history. In cases like this, it's fine to just pick the date that you think best fits with the available evidence.

» Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:35 pm

Thanks for all the helpful replies! :thanks:

I don't know for certain which it is, but the Biography of the Wolf Queen has many other errors. So I would think the Madness of Pelagius and The Wolf Queen have it correct.

I am leaning toward this date as well. Antiochus death in 3E 112 seems too close to the end of the War of the Isles to me. I guess we can infer from this that Katar Eriphanes is not the most reliable of Imperial scribes.

The first attack occurred in the Iliac Bay region, which separates High Rock and Hammerfell. Kintyra's entourage was massacred and the Empress taken captive. For two years, Kintyra II languished in an Imperial prison believed to be somewhere in Glenpoint or Glenmoril before she was slain in her cell under mysterious circumstances. The second attack was on a series of Imperial garrisons along the coastal Morrowind islands. The Empress' consort Kontin Arynx fell defending the forts. The third and final attack was a siege of the Imperial City itself, occurring after the Elder Council had split up the army to attack western High Rock and eastern Morrowind. The weakened government had little defence against Uriel's determined aggression, and capitulated after only a fortnight of resistance. Uriel took the throne that same evening and proclaimed himself Uriel III, Emperor of Tamriel. The year was 3E 121. Thus began the War of the Red Diamond - A Brief History of the Empire

Details of the War of the Red Diamond are included in other histories: we need not recount the Empress Kintyra II's capture and eventual execution in High Rock in the year 3E 114, nor the ascension of Potema's son, Uriel III, seven years later. Her surviving brothers, Cephorus and Magnus, fought the Emperor and his mother for years, tearing the Empire apart in a civil war. - Biography of the Wolf Queen

Have your pick. I would prefer 3E 121 for the same reason as above.

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Can some one else sort out the third one?

This one seems a bit easier because, depending on which source you believe, we know that Uriel III and his mother kept Kityra hostage for anywhere from one to five years. If we take the high end of that scale then that puts her capture in the year 3E 109 before the end of the War of the Isles. That can't be right.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/840109-time-and-place-inconsistencies/page__p__12237143#entry12237143 the date 3E 119 is most likely correct.

edit: Also from the same post - The Madness of Pelagius is wrong about Pelagius and his mother.

The strange thing is that, in the paragraph after identifying Pelagius’ mother as a Direnni, Tsathenes goes on to say that there is ‘much written record of Pelagius’ childhood in Balfiera recorded by nurses and visitors.’ I know that there are probably no such records, but I’m not sure that we should be so quick to dismiss Tsathenes. Is it possible, given the preoccupation of the Septim line to name offspring after past Emperors, that Tsathenes simply mixed up his Pelagiui?

I once tried to sort all this out for a giant history of the Empire I wrote around the time Oblivion came out, but I can't for the life of me remember the details now. Most of the books that were written for Daggerfall, including a Brief History of the Empire and the Madness of Pelagius, seemed to make a point of constantly putting members of the Imperial family in Wayrest, maybe because the other provinces just weren't very fleshed out yet, and, hey, Wayrest was in the game, so why not? I think Magnus being married to the Queen of Lilmoth makes more sense in the context of the series as it has evolved. Since the War of the Red Diamond was primarily a Western Tamriel affair, it stands to reason that special measures were in place to keep the East loyal during those years--a Septim in Black Marsh is probably a good move.

I agree. In the introduction to book seven of the Wolf Queen we are told that 'Magnus, King of Lilmoth, brought his Argonian troops through loyal Morrowind and into Skyrim to fight in Potema’s home province.'

It doesn't seem likely that one would recruit an army of Argonian troops in Wayrest.