The Wheel

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:23 pm

What/Who exactly is it comprised of? 8 spokes, 16 holes - are there any Aedra or Daedra that are not in place? For example, I've heard that Jyggalag has no space on the Wheel, and that Kynareth doesn't either. And does Talos fit in this design? I'm fairly sure that Lorkhan's realm is Mundus, the center. So, who is where in the structure of the universe?




EDIT: I made this thread b/c this discussion was starting in the Daedric Princes thread, but I thought a separate thread would be more appropriate.
User avatar
Charity Hughes
 
Posts: 3408
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:22 pm

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:47 pm

Jyg is Sheog. Yeah I know we don't know the state of Jyg, i.e. if he's separate or not, but for all intents and purposes, lets just say he's still part of Sheog.

All the Aedra are the 8. The Cyrodiilic Pantheon is pretty complete: Akatosh, Dibella, Arkay, Zenithar, Mara, Stendarr, Kynareth, and Julianos. Ignore Lorkhan; he's the Hub.

16 spaces = 16 Daedric Principalities.
User avatar
Lauren Dale
 
Posts: 3491
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:57 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:41 pm

All the Aedra are the 8. The Cyrodiilic Pantheon is pretty complete: Akatosh, Dibella, Arkay, Zenithar, Mara, Stendarr, Kynareth, and Julianos. Ignore Lorkhan; he's the Hub.


Oh, he's the hub... That makes sense now. So he became the hub upon creation of Mundus, then?
User avatar
Alkira rose Nankivell
 
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:56 pm

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:54 am

Yes.
User avatar
Emma-Jane Merrin
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:52 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:44 am

Jyg is Sheog. Yeah I know we don't know the state of Jyg, i.e. if he's separate or not, but for all intents and purposes, lets just say he's still part of Sheog.


I don't think we can say that Jyg is still Sheo. TES:SI saw to that. According to the game, those two are separate entities now (unless there's something I'm missing, which is possible - many people have theories to discredit/edit what happened in SI or what Jyg said at the end).

And where does Talos and Shezzar fit into all o' this?
User avatar
sally coker
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:51 pm

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:42 am

Shezzar = Lorkhan. Talos isn't et'Ada, i.e. he wasn't present at the Dawn of existence.

And if you can't tell me the state of Jyg or where his realm is, then its best to ignore him until we see TES V come out.
User avatar
[ becca ]
 
Posts: 3514
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:59 pm

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:51 am

Talos = Shezar = Lorkhan

ninja'd
User avatar
Michelle Serenity Boss
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:49 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:10 pm

Oh, he's the hub... That makes sense now. So he became the hub upon creation of Mundus, then?

Well, the hub is Mundus, and there was no Wheel before its creation. He didn't 'become' the hub with the creation of Mundus, rather, Mundus was created with him as the hub. Just like it was created with the other Aedra as the spokes. :angel:

:turtle:
User avatar
Noraima Vega
 
Posts: 3467
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:28 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:04 am

Well, the hub is Mundus, and there was no Wheel before its creation. He didn't 'become' the hub with the creation of Mundus, rather, Mundus was created with him as the hub. Just like it was created with the other Aedra as the spokes. :angel:

:turtle:


Not just the Aedra, the Daedra aswell.
User avatar
jaideep singh
 
Posts: 3357
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:45 pm

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:28 am

I must post the MK on this.

So, Thief, let us begin with something smaller, but still large enough for those of us still within Time. Tell us of the Psijiics and their relation to the Marukhati Selectives (and, by extension, to the Tower).

"By extension, to the Tower..."?

It extends the other way, I'm afraid. But yes, let's go that way, spinning. I have spoken of this in an earlier life [21].

What is the Tower?

The Tower is an ideal, which, in our world of myth and magic, means that it is so real that it becomes dangerous. It is the existence of the True Self within the Universal Self, and is embodied by the fourth constellation, and is guarded by the Thief, the third. The Thief is another metaphorical absolute; in this case, he represents the “taking of the Tower” or, and sometimes more importantly, the “taking” of the Tower’s secret.

What is the Tower’s secret?
How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower.

What created the Tower?
The Wheel created it. The Wheel is the structure of this universe, and it is easiest to see it that way: rim, spokes, hub, and all the spaces within and without. I shall take each in turn.

What created the Wheel?
Anu and Padhome, stasis and change, both vast realms sitting in the void, they created it. Not vast, infinite, as the void was infinite. Imagine an infinity enclosed by another; you come away with a bubble. Now watch as the two bubbles touch. Their intersection is a perfect circle of pattern and possibility that we shall call the Aurbis. The Aurbis is the foundation of the Wheel.

What are the spaces within and without of the Wheel?
Outside the wheel is the void, bereft of anything. It cannot be named. If it has more aspects than stasis and change, they are outside of true language. Inside of the Wheel is the Aurbis, as I have explained.

What is the rim of the Wheel?
As the process of subcreation continued, both Anu and Padhome awakened. For to see your antithesis is to finally awaken. Each gave birth to their souls, Auriel and Sithis, and these souls regarded the Aurbis each in their own part, and from this came the etada, the original patterns. These etada eventually congealed.

Anu’s firstborn, for he mostly desired order, was time, anon Akatosh. Padhome’s firstborn went wandering from the start, changing as he went, and wanted no name but was branded with Lorkhan. As time allowed more and more patterns to individualize, Lorkhan watched the Aurbis shape itself and grew equally delighted and tired with each new shaping. As the gods and demons of the Aurbis erupted, the get of Padhome tried to leave it all behind for he wanted all of it and none of it all at once. It was then that he came to the border of the Aurbis.

He saw the Tower, for a circle turned sideways is an “I”. This was the first word of Lorkhan and he would never, ever forget it.

What are the spokes of the Wheel?
For ages the etada grew and shaped and destroyed each other and destroyed each other’s creations. Some were like Lorkhan and discovered the void outside of the Aurbis, though if some saw the Tower I do not know, but I know that, if they did, none held it in such high esteem. In any case, some of those that did see the void created its like inside the Aurbis, but each of these smaller voids sought each other out. Void shall follow void; the etada called it Oblivion. What was left of the Aurbis was solid change, otherwise known as magic. The etada called this Aetherius.

Now Lorkhan had by at this point seen everything there was to see, and could accept none of it. Here were the etada with their magic and their voids and everything in between and he yearned for the return to flux but at the same time he could not bear to lose his identity. He did not know what he wanted, but he knew how to build it. Through trickery (“We have made the Aurbis unstable with the voids”) and wisdom (“We are of two minds and so should make a perfect gem of compromise”) and force (“Do what I say, rude spirit”), he bound some of the strongest etada to create the World.

The spokes of the Wheel are the eight gifts of the Aedra, sons and daughters of Aetherius. The voids between each spoke number sixteen, and their masters are the sons and daughters of Oblivion. The center of the Wheel was another circle, the hub, which held everything together. The etada called this Mundus.

What is the hub of the Wheel?
We are the hub, the Mundus that goes by many names. We are the heart of all creation. What does this mean? Why should we care? Lorkhan created it so that we could find what he did. In fact, and here is the secret: the hub is the reflection of its creators, the circle within the circle, only the border to ours is so much easier to see. Stand in its flux and remain whole of mind. Look at it sideways and see the “I”.

This is the Tower.


Edit: More,

The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Twenty-One

The Scripture of the Wheel, First:

'The Spokes are the eight components of chaos, as yet solidified by the law of time: static change, if you will, something the lizard gods refer to as the Striking. That is the reptile wheel, coiled potential, ever-preamble to the never-action.'
Second:

'They are the lent bones of the Aedra, the Eight gift-limbs to SITHISIT, the wet earth of the new star our home. Outside them is the Aurbis, and not within. Like most things inexplicable, it is a circle. Circles are confused serpents, striking and striking and never given leave to bite. The Aedra would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters. Their teeth are the proselytizers; to convert is to place oneself in the mouth of falsehood; even to propitiate is to be swallowed. '
Third:

'The enlightened are those uneaten by the world.'
Fourth:

'The spaces between the gift-limbs number sixteen, the signal shapes of the Demon Princedoms. It is the key and the lock, series and manticore.'
Fifth:

'Look at the majesty sideways and all you see is the Tower, which our ancestors made idols from. Look at its center and all you see is the begotten hole, second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment.'
Sixth:

'The heart of the second serpent holds the secret triangular gate.'
Seventh:

'Look at the secret triangular gate sideways and you see the secret Tower.'
Eighth:

'The secret Tower within the Tower is the shape of the only name of God, I.'
The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

User avatar
kat no x
 
Posts: 3247
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:39 pm

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:00 am

Don't see why all that information need to be posted. Maybe one or two sections, but not all that.
User avatar
~Amy~
 
Posts: 3478
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:38 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:26 pm

sorry. I was going to just link Them, but there was info on other stuff in both those sections of those stories.
User avatar
Eileen Müller
 
Posts: 3366
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:06 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:25 pm

Don't see why all that information need to be posted. Maybe one or two sections, but not all that.



I tend to ignore links, but I found that very interesting. Though I'm still a bit hazy on all this Tower business, though I know the Tower's secret is CHIM (no?). The Tower is the Wheel?
User avatar
Stefanny Cardona
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:08 pm

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:43 am

The Tower is the Wheel sideways: I.
User avatar
Matt Bee
 
Posts: 3441
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:32 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:29 am

Not just the Aedra, the Daedra aswell.

Indeed. :jammasterjay:

:turtle:
User avatar
Andrea Pratt
 
Posts: 3396
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:49 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:23 pm

I tend to ignore links, but I found that very interesting. Though I'm still a bit hazy on all this Tower business, though I know the Tower's secret is CHIM (no?). The Tower is the Wheel?

Take your bycicle/car tire. turn it sidewas. you'll get a straigh line (Ignore all the fuzzy rubber stuff sticking out of the sides)
User avatar
Yonah
 
Posts: 3462
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:42 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:24 pm

Take your bycicle/car tire. turn it sidewas. you'll get a straigh line (Ignore all the fuzzy rubber stuff sticking out of the sides)

Nah, it looks like a capital "I", so don't ignore that fuzzy rubber stuff sticking from the sides, it's intended. Can't be a capital "I" without the wheel portions, otherwise you have a lower case "l"
User avatar
Amysaurusrex
 
Posts: 3432
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:45 pm

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:46 am

8 spokes, 16 holes

This kind of breaks the metaphore of the wheel. 8 spokes on a wheel with a hub would mean 8 holes, not 16. Unless you turn it over and recount the mirrored holes again.
Or do the holes represent the holes in the "rim" and the "hub" where the spokes are secured? Then it would be 16.
User avatar
Jaki Birch
 
Posts: 3379
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:16 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:02 am

You actually missed the metaphor.... It's meant to convey an idea, not to give a physically correct explanation

<_<
User avatar
Alyna
 
Posts: 3412
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:54 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:56 am

This kind of breaks the metaphore of the wheel. 8 spokes on a wheel with a hub would mean 8 holes, not 16. Unless you turn it over and recount the mirrored holes again.
Or do the holes represent the holes in the "rim" and the "hub" where the spokes are secured? Then it would be 16.


Or the spokes go all the way through, from one end of the rim to the other.
User avatar
lucile davignon
 
Posts: 3375
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:40 pm

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:10 am

Or the spokes go all the way through, from one end of the rim to the other.

You can't have solid spokes going from one rim to the other, they would hit in the middle and break the solidity of them.
User avatar
Monika Fiolek
 
Posts: 3472
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:57 pm

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:11 am

You can't have solid spokes going from one rim to the other, they would hit in the middle and break the solidity of them.


Sure you can. There are no constraints on shape. Come to think of it, I don't believe the spokes are ever said to be solid. Not that it matters because the wheel is a metaphor, but use some imagination. In a way, considering Mundus is the hub it's even appropriate that they pass through each other.
User avatar
Adrian Morales
 
Posts: 3474
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:19 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:40 am

The Tower is the Wheel sideways: I.

Yes, I had read that, but is there any other logical correlation between the two? Like why it is the wheel sideways?

You can't have solid spokes going from one rim to the other, they would hit in the middle and break the solidity of them.

Sure you can. There are no constraints on shape. Come to think of it, I don't believe the spokes are ever said to be solid. Not that it matters because the wheel is a metaphor, but use some imagination. In a way, considering Mundus is the hub it's even appropriate that they pass through each other.


Indeed, where all the spokes (Aedra) meet, we have the hub. Even if the hub is just a single point, it is still our beautiful Mundus, all that metaphor stuff aside :P
User avatar
Sophie Payne
 
Posts: 3377
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:49 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:01 am

Yes, I had read that, but is there any other logical correlation between the two? Like why it is the wheel sideways?

Because the wheel sideways looks like a tower. That is the logical correlation. :thumbsup:

:turtle:
User avatar
Lil'.KiiDD
 
Posts: 3566
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:41 am

Post » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:00 pm

It's not that kind of sideways though. You gotta look at sideways, sideways, it's part of a language that can only be spoken sideways.
User avatar
stephanie eastwood
 
Posts: 3526
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:25 pm

Next

Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion