I think this will be very much true.
Play a warrior and get all the heavy armor and block perks, and you won't be able to get the sneak perks that reduce the ammount of noise made.

I was perfectly fine with my character being good at everithing. It's a single player game after all. About all characters being the same, it only happens when you have maxed them and then they are awesome. So again, no problem with this.

The new system though... I think I'll end up cheating since the second playthrough. I don't like the idea of needing 5 or more playthroughs to test all feats when I may use the same character for years.

Yep, Daggerfall still remains the best.

you need someone to tell you your a warrior?

isnt that what perks are for? you specialise in something and you get the relevant perks?

This. On a pedestal in all golden letters.
Sigged.

No. What I wrote is the truth . . . if you would take a little effort to actually read it in the context with which I wrote it.

At the end Oblivion's tutorial the game selected your Class . . . based on the way that you made it through the tutorial dungeon.

You could then keep that as you Class, or you could select another defined Class, or you could create your own custom class. This is why I asked the following two questions:

"How many players here, who played Oblivion, were happy with the Class that the game picked for them?"
"How many players decided to select their own Class?"

Most players did not keep the Class the the game picked for them . . . yet in Skyrim we won't have a choice.

The dynamics used to determine our pre-selected OB Class, were pretty much the same as what is being used in Skyrim to determine our skill increases.

Since this system didn't seem to work very well in Oblivion . . . what makes you think it will work any better in Skyrim?

And "being stuck with whatever you chose in the beginning of the game" is called specialization and having some actual character build Consequences . . . instead of being able to be change your character "Class" on a whim.

That statement is based on absolutely nothing. Seriously, nothing.

In Oblivion there really was no real difference between characters, you start differently, but you end up exactly the same, there's no encouragement for the things that you do, there's no encouragement for you to go a certain path, meaning specializing..

In Skyrim we don't have classes, true, but we have actions, which define us. We can still raise all the skills to their max, like ALWAYS. The only difference is that now we have perks to further specialize or customize our character, If you want to be an Assassin, choose perks accordingly. If you want to be a man of all trades, choose random/different perks and do not specialize.

Plus, in Skyrim, we have Radiant Story. Radiant Story is a system that follows our every action, turns it into a list of information. Which means we do get encouraged to specialize in something. If we're mostly a thief, then someone might approach us and offer us to steal something for him in return for a reward.

HOW IS THAT NOT ENCOURAGING BETTER THAN OLDER SYSTEMS? ^

Just capitalized the above statement so people will read it carefuly, not pun intended.
Anyway, the game builds itself according to our actions, which means we do have classes, only not in an official - naming ourself from the beginning - way. There's no hand-holding here, I agree there's some hand holding in Skyrim, but not here. We play the way we want to, and classes in older ES games did not matter anyway because we ended up the same -exact- way.

NOTE: There's no evidence or even things that suggest something that we will all begin the same way. So don't make pure speculations based on nothing.

I didn't joined all the guilds with the same character for the shake of keeping him what he was supposed to be.
My first character was warrior and mage,and my second one was thief and dark brotherhood.
I think after playing all that much to have completed about 2 guilds and various side quests let alone the main quest,somebody would start with a different character either way to try out his/her abilities.
Anyway,I can do that myself so I don't need the game to restrict me.
I'm not disabled.

Wat? :huh:
You're not making sense. Skyrim won't choose anything at all for you now.

I bet you never heard of a thing called immersion. And it's 'you're'. You're welcome.

I bet you never heard immersion has different meanings to different people. To some it's roleplay, to others it's realism, to others still it's being what you want to be, and there's also lore accuracy. I think Beth's only fault is that they emphasized one interpretation too much :spotted owl: .

Someone has already said this but it bears repeating. There are plenty of games with rigid, fixed classes, in which fighters don't get any spells at all, and mages can't wear armour. TES is what it is exactly because it doesn't have that. If you want rigid class restrictions in TES, you are asking to take away one of the three things that make it unique ( along with the Lore, and gaining skills by using them, rather than choosing on level up ).
@OP, I wasn't just referring to pure role play, but builds as well. You can take a set of perks that define any class, whether a basic mage by taking them in all the magic skills, or a more narrowly defined class, taking every perk possible in healing and alchemy for example. You can role play a class or not, but you can have a set of abilities that defines it in game terms with no 'make believe' whatsoever.

Well, I have read what you wrote several times and I'm sorry but he's right, it's VERY far from the truth...

In Skyrim we have all the choice, because there's something you don't seem to get, there are NO CLASSES in Skyrim. Which means that all we have is choice, if you want to specialize, then follow a certain very define path, if you don't want to specialize, do everything, choose perks for everything. Then you won't have a predetermined character. It's not even a question of ignoring the system anymore.

In no way in hell this is true. Just to base my statement on actual facts:
After the tutorial, the game suggested a class based on your actions during that tutorial, you would then get other options if you didn't like what the game choose for you.

In Skyrim:
We have NO CLASSES. The system writes down our actions and we get random encounters accordingly. If we steal a lot, then someone might offer us to steal something for him, if we're using mostly magic, then someone might offer us something different.

There are no CLASSES, there are only actions now, which gives you outmost freedom, no limitations, and the game encourages you to specialize in something in order to unlock side-quests etc.

HOW IS THAT EVEN SIMILAR? In Oblivion there weren't ANY quests for certain specific classes, even if you chose a warrior character you could always join the thieves guild, there was nothing to limit you, and there was no true meaning to the classes, in no way this is the same.


Not only this is not the same system AT ALL. Skyrim is 5 years after the release of Oblivion, what would you expect exactly?


There was no consequence for choosing a class, all it did was change the skills you begin with, NOTHING MORE. How is that specializing exactly?

If you need a game mechanic that enforces you or even just tells you in what you want to specialize in, you're doing it wrong...

well

I think they should reward "specialization" but without sacrificing the freedom the game offers for players

why yes i have heard of immersion but wouldnt the whole wearing platemail armor and using a shield and sword thing sort of tip you off that you just might be a warrior?

No, you didn't, and I see your point.

Of course there are unavoidable combat situations, there must be!

In this scenario you proposed (woman abducted in bandit lair, husband gives you a quest to save her)

I could try to make a deal with the bandit leader... "If you let her go i'll give you half of the reward the husband promised me" (high mercantile skill)
I could try to convince the husband I need the reward money up front, but never save his wife. (high speech-craft)
I could ask other NPCs for more information on the bandit leader, and look for something he needs in order to exchange it with the prisoner. (high speech-craft)
I could go to the local tavern and bribe/convince one of the bandits to secretly hand me the prisoner. (high mercantile and speech-craft)

Of course, if i fail... combat! and since my character (high mercantile and speech-craft) would svck at combat, i would have a very hard time.

None of this options exist in Oblivion, i'm just forced to use a weapon, use spells or use stealth to kill them all and save the prisoner.

:foodndrink:

Specialisation will be it's own reward, I suppose. You miss out on bonuses and abilities in a lot of skills, to become really good at a few. Just think, if you put every perk into sword and shield, yes you miss out on magic and stealth, but how good will you be in a straight up fight?

The problem here is that people are to fixated on doing 'the best'.
They want to use the 'best weapon in the game' and dont understand its possible to play the game without powergaming.
Now, in Oblivion I have never once used Umbra. I always gave it back to Clavicus. Its just not the kind of sword I like.
Not everything has to be equally rewarding and not everything the game offers has to be accessible for every build.

Characters ending up samey is only an issue if you insist on gaming the system, rather than roleplaying the game.

indeed

we must not forget the perks this time

I think ending up with a "pure" class will offer advantages that will overshadow the ability to lets say heal or use magic ...etc

Thats not it at all. You aren't even listening to what the devs are saying. you heard part where ' we took ______ out' and decided that you don't like it right off the bat?

The reason birthsigns and major/minor skills were taken out WAS NOT to hold your hand. It was to make it so your character was FREE. Free to make any decision at any time and not feel like the options you chose in the beginning were set in stone. Yes I was completely happy with the paladin I custom created from the start, however if i ever felt like going into something else it was incredibly hard to deviate from your chosen course.

SO let me get this straight; you believe, that by making it so you a player can build their character however they choose at any point in time you are LIMITING the player?

My very first experience with a TES game was that I had to restart the game 4 times after 30 minutes of game time until only on the fifth try did I finally find the build that I liked. Skyrim's approach would have saved me a lot of trouble back then.

Our initial decisions are very few, makes it easy for a newcomer to the genre to get into the game. But as you level up, your character's abilities become increasingly defined by your decisions, and your character's success in the world and in combat is the consequence of those decisions. I really can't see a problem with that at all.

Well, lack of classes will not prevent you from roleplaying at all so I don't see the problem.