I just want to chip in the fact that NCR aint "laboring to hold its head above water". NCR is actually at war with BoS based in Northern Californian, Arizona with whatever was fight the Legion as well.

Fact is, from in game dialogs, NCR homeland is depict to be quite wealthly, enough for them to enjoy corporate scheme and political bickering.

Has anyone here actually killed caesar and put Legate Lanius in charge?
Has anyone actually talked to him after the battle at the dam and secured a barter and or speech pass?

I have on all accounts.

He is a butcher however he is a lot smarter, tactical, honest, honourable and focused than little c.

He seems less in it for pleasure of power and ego and more for the conquest and expansion.
He doubts little c's vanity projects and pathological needs to one up the great bear.

Please stop saying Lanius would be worse than little c, little c made the legion what it is.
A hypocritical joke, one that can't even follow its own tenants without the wave of the hand from the top.
One that espouses honour yet shows none of it.
A bunch of raiders pretending to be civilised, by commiting the atrocities from history books.
That if left as petty raiders would never even have been dreamed of by them, and formed a group and society in their own image.
Rather than little c's a true NCR man btw, and Grahams idea of power.
Just like two victorian colonists trapped on an island with a brace of guns, declare themselves gods.

I suppose I should have been more clear, you CAN judge a nation by its leader. You can't by its lieutenant. The one I was referring to was the Nipton burning one.

Even if one doesn't agree with Ceaser, one will have to concede that he has managed to TRULY unify the Legion. Large amounts of time and energy are spent on removing all aspects of a tribe's former identity to ensure their cooperation.

Assuming the Couriers support, as he has been placed in the position of deciding power, the Legion would likely deal with matters without falling apart. Ceaser is intelligent enough to realize the importance of finding an heir or at least a secure line of succession. I feel confident in saying that the Legate will never be in command. He is a military man, not a leader. He would be bypassed or assassinated before any of the other generals allow him the position. Ceaser is a bully who crushes all who oppose him. He does not have the moral high ground. I concede this much joyfully. But, he does stand the best chance of keeping mankind alive and unified.

As to enslavement, it is needed. Their economy requires their male work force to fight to support and defend their nation. It is not morally sound, but it is economically. There is no threat of a slave rebellion (Who are cowed into submission better than raiders (Who stopped coming a long time ago)). After the war, and possibly Ceaser's death depending on his position on slavery, it will likely end. Most of his generals who stand a fair chance at succession aren't thrilled with the prospect to begin with. It is a temporary necessary evil. And who I am willing to argue that to (for the record, I will gleefully argue any side of any debate to anyone) has no affect on the validity of my argument.





Its outlying areas are, which house the bulk of its military. If they collapse or rebel then it will leave either huge swaths of land vulnerable to attack from rivals, see the rise of mini-nations attacking for independence against an entity with no foreseeable means to defend itself or at the very least crippling their economy and its already burgeoning military putting them back in line. Cue attack and... bye bye NCR.

Wealthy at the cost of alienating and inducing mass poverty to outlying areas. Corporate scheme and political bickering aren't exclusive to rich nations either, politics works a lot like school drama, rarely is it ever left behind, it just get a new name.

Mini-nations attacking for independence? Really?Right between NCR and Legion?

If anything, those "mini-mation" (or aka small town/tribes) would join NCR to resist the Legion, unless they are themselves slavers.

Madocmayhem: I don't know if a traditionalist can be call "smarter". But yes, he is more suitable to maintain the nation that CL have carved.

He's a traditionist as you say, but also a carefull planner that realises when he's outstretched and poorly supplied.
He pushes his troops brutaly, and excepts no failure, but unlike casear knows the pointlessness of just taking over something just to hold it.
I see him with what little dialogue we have as very shrewd and a carefull planner more so than caeser, but prone to as you say traditional behaviour.

caeser has the idea of a jewel in his crown that is NV, Lanius I think wants a nation undefeated..

It is possible to get the Khans to leave the wasteland and also eliminate the structure of the Fiends ensuring that NOBODY can join the Fiends without hurting the Khans.


In the slide it shows that the Fiends disperse after the leaders are killed thus ensuring the Khans find a new business.

How is Caesar's Legion any less elitist than House? If anything it is more elitist. Only human males serving as legionaires have any rights. If you aren't a legionaire, I hope you are a human male trader. If not, you are a slave or dead. House may be elitist, but anyone with potential/ability can be in the elite. His would be a meritocracy. Little Johnny is a moron? To bad, he can be a janitor. He is fed, he is clothed, he has shelter, he is safe, he is not abused, but no he doesn't get all the bells and whistles. Sure beats the hell out of living in the wasteland or Caesar's Legion. If Johnny isn't bright enough to swing a machete he is tuned into a pack mule and worked to death. If he isn't strong enough for that, he is killed. If he is smart enough to swing a machete, I don't want him being in charge of anyone or anything. If little Suzie has the ability she can be one of the elite under House. With the CL all she can look forward to is being a brood mare and pack animal.

The argument that "many people will die before House gets things working right" is also stupid. How many people will the Legion kill (have killed) to get things the way they want? How many will die before the NCR get things the way they want? How many will die if nothing is done? The wasteland is an ugly, dangerous place.

Hey Devs how about stepping in and telling us what the CL are like "back home"? Apparently what was written in the LE guidebook isn't true since it is discounted by most.

Mini-nations as in rebellious territory claiming independence and trying to capitalize on the Legion's distracting the NCR. Not random little nations popping up everywhere.

I mean territories like the Mojave who already have infrastructure who decide that the high taxes aren't worth the lack of benefits and say enough is enough. If they rebel, then it leaves large areas of land vulnerable to attack in the NCR and cripples part of their economy/military. It wouldn't take much to bring them down if they are also trying fight a war with the Legion.

Not fact, speculation.
We've yet to see a Legion town or any of the more civilized Legion areas.
All we've seen is their military.
And honestly, all military has dark moments.
IRL modern wars as well as older wars, all of them has dark moments, some darker than others.
But does the military's actions reflect on how it's country and citizens are treated?
Legion isn't the least bit pretty during war-time, especially not when it's up against a major opponent like NCR.
But that doesn't mean that this is how their conquered lands are being treated.
Why would Legion have traders if everyone is either a legionnaire or a slave?
And why would they even bother to have their own currency?
We can only base Legion upon what we've seen/heard but there are extremely large chunks of lore missing from them.
So the "Either you're a slave, dead or a legionnaire" is only speculation and not facts, at least until we actually get to see more of Legion. (If that ever happens that is.)

I first want to say that you're exactly on the Wise Path regarding Caesar's Legion. Plain and simple, there are no redeeming features to slavery and the belief that women are merely breeders. The absolute economic oppression of others, including the cruelty inflicted upon others while enslaving them and the arrogance present in people who believe in such things means they should be isolated from the rest of the human race. Get out, get away, you deserve each other and no one else. I see nothing of value there and if there is anything of value in their other beliefs, it pales into nothingness because of slavery.

The NCR has huge leadership problems. I was not impressed with most of the leaders. There were many lower ranking people I was impressed with though...an important one to me was Lt. Bardem at the Hoover Dam. He said it best. There are many people in the NCR who care about other people and work hard to help them. I saw the brightest moments among the ranks at the lower levels. It was easy for me to decide to go with them.

I didn't quote what you said but I also saw better things for the Great Khans even though their existing path wasn't the best. The younger people coming up were willing to change and do better things for their survival and I understood completely why Papa Khan was so bitter. He has the capacity to change direction too though and my ending for the Khans made me happy.

Good luck out there.

It really is irritating how bias the game is toward NCR. We need download content that opens the right side of the map up to exploration and adds some more areas for the Legion.

I feel CL needed their own "Rome" to back up all their claims etc. It would be nice to walk through a really calm advanced paradise city with free women and people without swords and wonder if Legion could make the rest of the world like that.

Techno Rome would certainly beat the depressive camps full of poor women and men in skirts.

You support the legion based on pure speculation. You have no evidence to support that legion treats women as anything other then second class or slaves.
There is plenty of evidence there treated as property and denied the same rights as men. They can't run Caravan company for example, which is Cass's biggest issue. And what happens to women when they absorb a new tribe is further evidence of how females are treated under legion rule. The simple fact that when they expand the legion takes women as slaves is plenty of evidence of how they'd be treated back home. Any of those legion civilized areas would be controlled by the military, and we've seen how the legion military treats and regards women. So there is no reason to believe they'd treat the women back "home" any different then in the Mojave.


The legion largely rejects modern technology[aside from a few elite wielding high tech weapons]. So there is no techno Legion city. You want an advanced looking city go west to the NCR. Casar wants Vegas to be his Rome to legitimize the legion as a nation as he still feels like a Barbaric King.
Which indicates legion territory has nothing beyond small settlements and tribal like camps.

And except for The Fort you have no evidence to support that they don't treat women and citizens better in their own towns like Denver and Flagstaff.
But I don't support Legion for the present time. (2281)
I support them for the vision they have for the future.
It's not a pretty road and it's going to be filled with blood sweat and tears from slaves.
But in the end, I believe that they are the best to happen to the wastes.

If we're talking morality, Legion is plain evil like a bad movie villain. While bad guys often have a good vision for the future... the ends don't justify the means. Morally NCR seems to be the best choice for the region.

Yes I do, as according to NPC testimony they don't let woman run caravan companies for example. When they conquer a tribe they enslave the women. That's exactly what happens to the Great Khans? Why do you think it be any different for the previous 86 tribes they absorbed? And if were talking about Flagstaff and thus including wiki material gathered from the unmade games. Unlike most post-War societies, which treat women as equal to men, Caesar's Legion treats most of them as merely breeding stock, The legion military treats women as second class or slaves, period, that much is clear from the in-game material. As the legion military controls the eastern territories why do you think there some how magically different people there? Why after conquering and enslaving as they expanded do you think the women in previously conquered territory would somehow be free? Slavery of women aside they still have slavery and nail people to cross and leave them to die.

At the fort a the woman "healer", said she was training to be a doctor before she was enslaved so..

A. She belonged to a tribe that had support from the followers or.
B. She belonged to a tribe or society that was seeking learning and education for all.
Either way CL went in, caught her and any woman of age or young enough to be of worth and enslaved them
Then at best took the young men for the same reasons and enslaved them if strong or killed them if not fighters.
Everyone else is killed.

So in what way does this serve anyone?

The cottonwood cove, a young man not worth anything, an old woman that would at best be a housekeeper.
The only one with a "bright" possible future is the girl who's not tooo ugly and may bear chidren.

The Khan's any too old or young killed ( most likely papa and the leaders too ).
Any resistance killed.
Women enslaved for the "offfcers" of CL.

"Women are inferior both physically and mentally".
"They leave the old and young ones mostly alone."

The traders are allied for fear and profit, not actual members of CL.

Bound to be more, but these are the paraphrased words from actual CL, and often senior ones too.

I picture the Legion as a kind of Naziesque faction. Their intentions are good and they want whats best for their people, but they are doing it in a way that is morally wrong and are killing innocents for the sake of a better nation. But at least the Nazis treated their women better.

I see why the Legion could be a good choice, but they are doomed to fail. Ceaser talks of not going back to the pre-war times because obviously it didn't work out in the long run, but then again, the nation they are emulating didn't last in the long run either.

I love how this first started out at "who should I side with?" and now its become a sympathizing fest of Ceaser's Legion. BD

But seriously, although 'you' are to make the choice a majority of the factions are just plain "old [censored]".

With NCR you have an ever-lasting "Expansionist" regime which wants to see everything under it's nice little boot. Nomally I wouldn't mind 'expansionism' concerning the wasteland must be united under a single good roof. But then again; it has to be a good roof. The NCR it's a copy-cut out of the United Commonweaths of America, who had no trouble plauging humanity with a nuclear wasteland. Then testing them within various vaults of how good human beings they are for the new world. That and most of it is irringly simular to the complaining about big goverment can't do much. Which is odd, since in Fallout 2 the NCR was at its height of power. The president was running consecutive terms, everyone was 'happy', etc. Just seems abut silly but then I'm not complaining. "A good NCR solider is a dead one."

Now for this whole thing; Ceaser's Legion. I would recommend not joining them and not because of the whole morality thing which was already there befre New Vegas release (Van Buren anyone?). It's just that CL is a doomed ending, even if we could see the positive light from it. On the one hand Ceaser doesn't even know the personality of his greatest general, over confident, and rather confused with philiosphy from the past (studying of Helegian Dialectics myself). Espically when he concerns himself with being the 'new syntesis' for this ravanged world.(Seing that the new synthesis would have to be a combination of good effects from bth 'systems' in which case it would just be a conquering of the NCR and making Ceaser's Legion become an Empire.) While I would liketo point out some things; Ceaser's Legion does have a sixist mind set, seeing that if you play a female character and align with ceaser then you basically get insulted and ridiculued until the games end. But there is no other facts of sixual oppression or discrimination then that really. Since you have, literally, no other evidence other then slaver's being harsher on slave females more then males. But let's remind ourselves that a majority of the slaves in the Fort are females...that and they seem to have a real knack of this pesudo-masculine things with their generals. Of the "strong" surviving. Reminds me of the unity and the Master, and we once sympathized with the Master. Come on, we all did one time.

House is generally just House. He wants New Vegas independent, and the rest can burn in hell for all he cares. Maybe it is a side effect of being 'immortal' and surviving the nuclear holocaust by just a thread of a second. Even then, he almost died. But, he just wants New Vegas to shine. To become a paradise for the world as it once was or even better. But this does not put the bettermet of humanity first, rather the betterment of New Vegas's looks. And when I mean 'New Vegas' I just mean that 3 part Strip. Or actually 2 part. Since the Casinos are only are the first two parts of the strip while the thrid has the NCR Embassy, Vault 21, and Micheal Angelo's workshop. That, and it's likely to be seen he will submit the Mojave to NCR. Seeing that in his ending, the NCR must agree to the "Free Economic zone of New Vegas", and if my knowledge of post-war economics serve correcty. Then it's basically New Vegas is untouched by NCR expansionism, but allows comerce, supplies, and etc to come through New Vegas. As long as the NCR 'pays a toll' if you know what I mean.

And then there's the Independent/Yes Man/"You" play-through. Which I'm somewhat dissapointed at its vaugeness. In my opinion, it's the 'best' seeing that no one really gets New Vegas except you. And then we can just imagine you're either benveolent, or tyrannical. Or maybe Yes Man just sorts out all the problems of the state and you can continue walking the wastes. We don't know yet. But I'm very dissapointed at how short it is, seeing that you obtain an army. (if you play it the smart way) and yet the army is never spoken again besides "oh it crushed any chaos, mkay?".

But we can see that if Lanius was Ceaser then it would be "You're either dead or on the cross."

CL is the best chance for the Mojave. What other options are there? A corrupt nation who will eventually fall to revolutions and hate. Mr house who says he will make the mojave great in 50 years and that you need to trust him, and even then he would only be helping a few richer people

Yes there is, the fact they enslave the women of the tribe they absorb is evidence, the fact that women aren't allowed to run a caravan company in the territory they control is evidence. Information taken from the canceled Van Buran also shows that the legion views women as breeding stock.


So a totalitarian nation of slavers and brutal murders is the best option? A nation where the sick and the elderly are killed sounds nice? Your assessment of house is also quite false, he wants to bleed the rich of the wealth so rebuild humanity. If anything its the rich he's preying on.

That'd be probably they're last resort as a 'breeding stock'. I mean since the military of the Legion in sixuality is actually very along the lines of Sparta's armies rather then Rome's.

That and it isn't 'totalitarian', it's just a tribe ruled under the militarcy of one. It's, actually in an ironic sense, the perfect definition of the Rome's version of 'dictator'. Where Ceaser can dictate anything, but then there is no senate. So this 'dictatorship' is just like NCR, filled with holes and amusing references.

New Vegas is about New Vegas and the Mojave I've generally got the impression of.

NCR do get the most lines but...
House ( and even Yes Man to an extant ) get the best ones.
If I have to say which would be the canon ending it would be house / good / neutral.
The game truely is focused on the Mojave, the NCR will have a place but it'll remain its own little state of buisness.

CL are relegated to the "other guy" role, after all they do wear red ( shirts ).

You can argue that CL are the best for the wastes, which may be true if more evidence was given.
House however is portrayed all through the game as the Mojave and..
The Mojave is good for the Mojave not the legion.

How is House exactly 'good for he Mojave', though? Since he does little for the Mojave besides sending securitrons to Outer Vegas, and sending a securitron to Goodsprings.

Did not say I thought he was good, just saying on a good ending.
You can..
A. Have the Khans free and set up with the FotA in a new state alomost akin to a wasteland utopia.
B. Drive off both sides without destroying them.
C. Have the fiends killed and driven off.
D. Have Goodsprings free and prosperous.
E. Novac happy.
F. Tabitha happy and not dead.
G. The kings / westside loyal and well off.
H. Jacobstown well off.
I. Primm well looked after.
K. The powder gangers dealt with.

No unhappy endings, Mojave well off.
New Vegas free of strife building for the future and not looking to expand.

I was honestly shocked how good the house ending could be, it made me relook at all his actions.
This is not a pro House biased post, if the Khans were the major faction it would be, but House is not my favourite.
He is however the only run through I've yet to get close to a 100% good fairytale ending.