The ncr us doomed, they are already on the same exact path as prewar America appointing officials that dont even know what they're doing. They will never change and they will end up snuffing themselves out.

I would much rather have a leader like Caesar who knows what he wants and does it. I don't agree with the slavery (it's easy enough to get people to do hard work without enslaving them) and men cannot run a country without women there to help them (sorry guys but wait til you get married, you're wife will do everything), but I want a leader who sticks with their decision right or wrong and garners respect from their followers. Trying to please everyone wont work so the only thing you can do is stick with what you think is right. That is a strong and great leader, but without giving knowledge to their people, the legion will die out too unless they get their [censored] together right now.

As for the killing, I believe you have to do what is necessary to survive and conquer, the weak die the strong live end of story. If I get killed by someone then it svcks but I sure as hell ain't going down without a fight, I don't care if the person outweighs me or is bigger than me (which isn't too difficult, I'm only 5'2"). That's the one thing my mom taught me was to stick up for myself and those weaker than myself and that's what I'll do but if it comes down to me or them, I will do whatever is necessary to make sure that I come out on top.

Dario, I support legion (future legion)

I support Independent ending, too



The Mid-Western Brotherhood would aid the Courier if he agreed that A; the Mojave should be under the protection of this non-discrimatory Brotherhood of Steel and B; if the Courier agreed that the Western Brotherhood should leave immediately or join the Mid-West's way. The mid-Western Brotherhood would also want the complete destruction of Ceaser's Legion and the NCR. That and considering they are largely the ONLY faction to use pre-War technology besides vertibirds (which the NCR has thanks to the Chosen one or by their raiding of Navarro) it'll be a swift war.

The problem with this is Mr. House doesn't care about America nor the world, he only cares about his precious Las Vegas. If left to his own devices, you'd likely never hear of him beyond having his roving Securitrons.

More so the Strip, since New Vegas also encompases North Vegas, West Side and Freeside. Which he turns a blind eye to, and can't even see that his own city could be plauged with conspiracy and sabotage (Gommarah and Ultra Lux, my my Ceaser.)

I would say he cares about humanity as a whole. As he essentially wants to use Vegas to build up the necessary technology to carry humanity across the stars. That certainly sounds like he cares for more then just Vegas.


I don't think there is a real reason to discount that material on legion society and such from the Van Buren material until we find a conflict with the game. Caesar's legion came from that material. You just don't want to admit that the legion is just as horrible to women back home as they are in the Mojave. If the Van Buren material has some positive things to say about the legion you'd be perfectly fine with all the wiki material.

Does anything on legion society in the wiki conflict with NV? no it doesn't.

Without that information we can only judge the legion based on what we see in NV, which says they discriminate against women and treat them as second class citizens. Aside from The Fort, there is simply talking with other people about the legion. It has been stated in game that women for instance can't run a caravan company in legion territory glaring proof of discrimination beyond military service. We know when the legion expands they take slaves when a tribe is conquered its old and sick are exterminated and the women sold as slaves.[which is exactly what will happen to the Khans if they join]. With that kind of expansion is naive to say they'd treat women better back east. As they've already expanded across that area.


Wow so many things wrong with your logic, first the ghoul in Searchlight can join up with Astor. Second its not segregated at Echo there are both humans and ghouls stationed there, and lets remember that a ranger [especially the black armored ones] his a position of the elite. The camp is actually quite important as it spies on Cottonwood Cove and most importantly there are pockets of radiation around it. So logically your going to send your ghoul rangers to that camp as there immune.

Your also ignoring the difference between policy and individuals, the existence of a Super Mutant ranger is proof its not there policy to discriminate against near-humans. But that doesn't mean intolerant individuals don't exist. Was the guy who hired the mercs actually part of the NCR military or just a private citizen? The fact the unnamed NCR guy was forced to use mercs is proof that there are laws preventing him from just attacking the mutants outright.

Elanthil01 major problem with your reasoning against the NCR, they have largely rebuild society back west, that much is clear in there capital city as you can see it in Fallout 2. And the best ending for the Khans has them reconnect with the Followers of the Apocalypse before carving out an empire. That doesn't sound like blood thirsty conquers with that kind of friend. Shaddy Sands went from a mud hut village to a modern looking city.

What may be best for the NCR is to lose the damn to Mr. House or Yes Man. This would disgrace Oliver and the President and give the opportunity for a better leader both political and military to take over.


According to Fallout 3 the Chicago chapter is a small detachment, implying the canon ending is the destruction of the calculator. So canon wise they don't have much power and influence.

Although the NCR has built 'civilization' from ruins prior to it, to say they were not racist against ghouls is spitting on our old dear friend Harold and Herbet. Vauly city, a close ally to NCR at the time of Fallout 2, was very much wanting their own slavery of ghouls in order to obtain the Oil plant.

But there are some errors with your reasoning;

#1; you have to convinece the NCR squad commander that the ghoul isn't feral to begin with, which would require speech skill and killing all the other ghouls in the area. He claims to be 'putting them at ease', which is really convinent for his situation. That and he doesn't even know about Ranger Camp Echo (Notice not a regular army unit, so there are opportunities ghouls can have. But only if they are militarily fit), which is odd. Even though Ranger's are to be the last resort if regular units can not provide the material which is needed by the high command it either shows that they aren't suppose to know about a ghoul ranger camp or communications of NCR to troops is worse then we've imagined.

#2; NCR hired mercenaries to take out a village of SuperMutants led by Mayor Marcus(Again..), when he never did much wrong after the Master's fall. With either city, it was mostly the humans who caused fights with the supermutants. Or SuperMutants nostalgic about the olden days of the unity, try to eliminate the humans in order to keep the city pure (in Fallout 2 of course). But if the NCR is throughly good, why would they call mercenaries to raid and harrass a SuperMutant village? Especially that JacobsTown has never made any reactions, retaliations or even a search party to see what was happening in the Mojave. I suppose this is a draw back to Marcus's old ways; isolationist polices shall save us in the end. Though isolationism will eventually make you and your enemy the last objects left in the region that might be powers. Although you could suggest perhaps some high ups in the military could have ordered this, we see that the NCR now has a militry-goverment bond. Bueacratic powers aiding military influence in order to gain more money and resoucres. That and it would have to be a very wealthy individual then, no mercs want to harass SuperMutants for 2,000 caps or even 200,000. Give them at least 5,000,000 as the job begins and give them the rest of the cash (about 10,000,000) as their job is completed. Though they(whoever hired them) would most likely not expect them to live. They want to attack SuperMutants, very powerful and formidimal enemies if you don't have the proper equipment.

But then there's one last thing;

You're reasoning sounds much like those you debate against when they favor the Legion. It's that they 'rebuild society', which is true. But so has the Legion. Both societies aren't going to help humanity much, such as the SuperMutants under the Unity could have made a vast empire. But it wouldn't last long, even if they rebuilt new soceity to a perfection that none could surpass. Remember the Children and their dream? Tell me something at how the Master, Ceaser, and Tandhi were exactly different in their beings and goals for humanity?

Sure, under one route of four possible, you can get his former companion to accept him again... after having to push hard to convince Astor, with a high Int check being the only way. So, with those rangers at Echo being part of the elite and all, how many are among the ranking individuals at the station? Oh, that's right, the ranking Ranger is not a ghoul. Hell, even the comms officer who would have the most contact with the rest of the NCR is human.

Because the gap between policy and individuals makes all the difference in the world in how Super Mutants are treated. I am sure Mean Sonofa[censored] would love to agree with you on that little verbal variable meaning so much to human/Super Mutant relations regarding the NCR. Your assumption regarding laws protecting the Super Mutants is extremely flawed, when we have proof right there in Westside that NCR troopers and citizens will openly enslave, assault and torture Super Mutants who are causing no harm. Don't believe me? Go ask Klamath Bob. All hiring mercs implies is that someone felt the already thinly stretched NCR forces in the Mojave did not have the forces free to keep Jacobstown bottled up.

Provide evidence the legion has done anything to rebuild society? oh right there is none. All they can do is pacify the area of all resistance and live as a nomadic band of raiders. Caesar himself says he wants Vegas to solidify his the legion as a nation and not a nomadic band. So clearly they have done nothing to rebuild society.


Vault City wasn't a close ally at the time of Fallout 2. They had contact, and the one who really had a problem with ghouls was the first citizen, the other leaders were much more open to peaceful relations with ghouls. Did I say that the NCR wasn't racist against ghouls? no I didn't I simply stated there better then the legion which calls Raul a pet and clearly doesn't use them.


Astor DOES know about the Camp Echo he's the one who suggests it, its not surprising that Edwards a private doesn't know about every single camp in the Mojave. And so what if Astor has to be convinced, its not a difficult speech challenge and his attitude is fairly cool.


WHO in the NCR hired mercenaries? a Brahmin baron who was losing cattle to Tabitha's raiders? an NCR military officer? we don't know whose doing it. The reality is Jacobstown is taking the heat for Tabitha's antics around black mountain. You say no mercs want to harass super mutants for 2,000caps but obviously 2,000caps is enough to bribe them away. In Fallout 2 you could find Super Mutants living peacefully in NCR territory, one could be seen as a member of the rangers. The mission was to provoke the super mutants into attacking, which shows the NCR couldn't wipe it out without reason. Someone was trying to give the NCR a reason to react. The NCR is a group of people, not a religion devoted to one man like the Legion. The NCR is of course a democracy so SOME some politicians use anti-mutant sentiments to gain votes from.


There is goals and then methods. If your goal is peace in the middle east that's good. If you method is to wipe out every living soul there, that's a problem.
I had a D&D character whose goal was to escape the pocket dimension and return home to his wife and children. But being lawful evil he was perfectly willing to take six innocent people hostage in order to lure a Paladin into an ambush to retrieve the artifact he needed to escape. [where I promptly killed the hostages with a spell that used there life force to fuel my own power].
Sure great goal, return home, but horribly bad methods.

Caesar's method is violent expansion exterminating all resistance and wiping out any culture that isn't legion. As he expands towns are exterminated, the old and the sick are killed, people taken as slaves[especially women]. They force people to fight to the death for there amusemant in the arena. There a slaver empire. That is not a society that should be allowed to exist. Peace and security through fear isn't really that safe.
And as bad as Caesar is, god help the people of the wastes of Lanius takes over.

The Master wanted to convert humanity, he was not especially cruel in his methods. As wars go he was quite nice as he was more interested in prisoners. Obviously his plan had its flaws, it forced people to become super mutants for one, and the rest of the problems when brought to his attention make him commit suicide.

The NCR expands in a duo military and diplomatic fashion, notice in there ending it states "They negotiated terms to annex The Strip, Freeside, and many surrounding communities." There flaws are they expand to big and to aggressively. They couldn't be happy controlling Hoover dam, they had to secure The Strip and all of Vegas with it. The big flaw being they basically walk into the area and say, "Your under NCR jurisdiction now" and aren't above bullying people into joining. Which is bad but no where near as low as the legion. However its still a democracy so people still have freedoms and some say in how things are done. If they find Kimbal and incompetent rube after the Mojave conflict they can vote for someone new.

If you have a complaint against the leadership of the legion you might as well nail yourself to the cross

Although I did not read all of the posts, there are several things that people are not considering. After the Great War civilization was essentially sent back to the Stone Age. Humanity is needing to start over. Based on this, an Empire is the logical structure. Before society can advance to become a democracy, there needs to be stability. Ceaser's Legion provides this. Over time the Empire can evolve into a more "fair" system of government, This has occurred throughout history, and once the reset button was hit, it needs to occur again.

For everyone saying how great NCR is, they are just trying to have complete control through a different means. They are controlling the means to live, and taxing those. NCR discriminates against everyone who is not a member, and offer many fewer advancement opportunities. Also they have a definite disadvantages as they give unqualified people important jobs.. Just look at the ambassador to the strip. Even people under him say he is not very effective. The legion starts all soldiers at the same spot, and give promotions based on merit, rather than just favors.

Alright then why don't we switch questions then if we are to pre-suppose evidence has not been shown yet. Provide me any evidence that the NCR is rebuilding society? Since Towns do not consider civilization now, so that means they would have to not only provide non-discrimatory polices towards others but have a law in which would repress all that of the wasteland which would harm new soceity.

But what can I proof about the Legion re-building society? Rebuilding society, in any way, would provide this;

That A; Settlements under the particular group are not destroyed at a constant rate, nor are they controlled by an outside gang or group (Regulators for Bone-Yard was a good example)

B; That they are heading in a general direction that some goal entails that society will be a objective(structure) factor in the future that will set themselves above the rest.

And C; That the group has protected theirsettlements from both internal and external harm. But let's see what society's defintion is if you really want to play the pro-NCR game.

"A society is a group of people living or working together. There are various different uses of the term society."

Though let's also see the different uses.

Casual; "society to mean a group of people that form a semi-closed (or semi-open) system, in which most interactions are with other individuals belonging to the group. More abstractly, a society is defined as a network of relationships between entities. A society is also sometimes defined as an interdependent community."

Origin; "The origin of the word society comes from the Latin societas, a "friendly association with others." Societas is derived from socius meaning "companion" and thus the meaning of society is closely related to what is social. Implicit in the meaning of society is that its members share some mutual concern or interest in a common objective."

Or we could view society as nothing more than one class (the higher fuedal lords, wealthy monopolies, wtc) ruling over the rest as a stage of human development.

Take your pick, their(Ceaser's Legion) are scum; but they are a rebuilding society, even if it is one enduced into the roman thought of slavery and of a false thinking that Ceaser(emperor) was ever a god.



Which is why you exactly said: "the existence of a Super Mutant ranger is proof its not there policy to discriminate against near-humans..." Though even this statement is wrong. There is no existence of a supermutant ranger, as many NCR citizens, soliders, etc seem to have a fear and hatred for Supermutants. Remarks to lily are evidence. But then if we are to pre-suppose there was a SuperMutant ranger; this doesn't mean they have a policy to discriminate against that species. Our own world is a prime example, union armies enlisted the aid of African Americans and as did the confederacy. Did that mean they didn't discriminate against them? To believe that is to believe pure fantasy about the military in general.

Though if that is to be a non-discrimatory move, why did the NCR only have one. One Ranger Outpost of the entire Mojave to have ghouls near not only a dangerous target but have the others safe from harm. Or what about the NCR Ranger outpost near JacobsTown? Are they there just for giggles, or are they spying on he SuperMutant population to see if they can be eliminated easily or not?



Especially when you mention Camp Echo to begin with, since all that in his mind is prior to this is 'kill those poor forsaken ghouls'. I almost wish Set from Fallout One back, only he was perhaps a worse leader for the Ghouls.




Ah, the classical 'WELL WHO DID IT?!' response. That and way to go to ignore completely half of that post. So Who could it be? Maybe the Rangers, since they are able to spy at both the great Khans and the SuperMutants. That and see that the mercenaries say themselves they're ordered by the NCR. Unless you want to back-track west and ask every soul and body in New Reno, ShadySands, Bone-Yard, Vault city, Posideon Industries and more of who ordered contacts for these specfici mercenaries we can assume that it was someone who wanted to test out what the Mutants were capable of. Hiring a bunch of Mercenaries with grade-B equipment going up against an entire village of SuperMutants...does that not sound strange to you?

They were either high-under estimated OR They we're to be framed for the 'killings of innocent bystander'.




To repeat your statement; 'WHO?!' And where. I'll check it out for myself.




Or without a falsified report? You've seen how Chief hanlon was gotten NCR on edge with these military reports, and Super Mutants have never really recovered from the discrimination against them. Ghouls suffered just the same, but apperantly one location of ghouls just entirely proves (fairly low populated location) no discrimatory action against them. That and the NCR is presented as very weak in this game, until...actually it's always presented as weak in New Vegas.




Democratic abuse FTL? Democracy isn't really somehing to be abused, as it something a 'democracy' for one class or people above another. So its the democracy of those who control the NCR above those who are under it.

Also; whatever happened to that title the wasteland of America was created off of "no taxation without representation"? When there is no represenation for the Mojave interests and present them to the NCR.



Negotiation in this case would be "We give you this amount of money for all of your land". Not a diplomatic deal, rather a deal of people who wanted money then independence. And any anti-NCR action is removed immediately. Such as the Followers, or moving the khans (who would even ally with the NCR after genocide) to isolated areas to die off.




After a successful war and more "luxuries and commodities" for high class NCR citizens to go into the Mojave and use it as their tourist attraction? Most likely no, they will keep him for another five terms, or perhaps three, after a NCR victory. And make General Oliver Lee Commander of all land forces in any military operation for proving he's better than the Rangers. (His main goal in this Second Mojave War)

The problem with that is humanity knows how to construct a democratic government that wasn't forgotten. So why go back? An empire can be democratic, an empire can have a strong military without being a band of brutal slavers who follow a scorched earth policy. The NCR did have stability they simply expanded to quickly. So the idea you need a brutal band of slavers like the legion to provide stability is ridiculous. So why go back? Instead of trying to reform a band of brutal slavers who murder the sick and the elderly, who treat women like breeding stock. Wouldn't it be easier to reform a democracy? or use the securitrons yourself to become ruler of Vegas then let the people elect there own leaders?


Hows the Ambassador not effective? He's simply unpopular with the military for being diplomatic. He knows to send you to Hsu and not Moore when it comes to solving the Kings Gambit, he also knows a violent solution to freeside is a very bad idea. And NCR discrimination against non-members is nothing compared to the legion who insult you at every turn until your rep is high.


They turned the mud huts of Shady Sands into a modern looking City which is there capital. The established a democratic government in in the wasteland uniting several communities though out the wastes



By your wide view of logic, the fiends are rebuilding society or the Super Mutants of Vault 87 are rebuilding society. In any event that kind of society the world is better off without.


That NCR outpost is there to keep an eye on the Great Khans who the NCR has had conflicts with sense before the NCR existed. New Vegas is the first game to portray the Khans as anything other then a band of brutal slaving raiders.

And the ghoul population relative to humans is very low, so your not going to have many ghouls especially ghoul rangers. And as I said the outpost has radiation around it so its natural you'd want troopers there who are immune. And just because the outpost is dangerous doesn't mean there assignment is any discrimination. As rangers they'd probably consider getting a front line assignment an honor.


http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Gond
Super Mutant and a ranger.


Your assuming I was talking about an NCR victory, I wasn't. I purpose that losing to House and Yes Man could disgrace Kimbal and General Oliver and make way for better leaders who are more diplomatic. It could also make them more careful about there rapid expansion policy.

You made Caesar and House seem more evil than the are.

Who are you talking to?

Lord Vukodlak- While I do agree that the knowledge to create a democracy is there, humanity itself is going through another dark ages so to speak. There is a lot of knowledge that was lost, and most people are fighting just to survive. Everyone will do just about anything to stay alive, and most have their own plans, so how can anyone truly work together in order to achieve the democracy. And in regards to Ambassador Crocker being ineffective, he stays in his office all day, essentially doing work that makes him appear busy. He is not actively trying to advance the NCR agenda, and he even admits that he is the first ambassador to accept the limitation of his powers. Even his rise to the post was given to him in return for aiding President Kimball getting elected. It may just be my view but all evidence points to Crocker's ambassadorship being a crock. (Sorry for the bad pun but I could not avoid it. If anyone needs proof that Crocker is ineffective, the developers are calling him a crock.)

I have been putting off killing the Brotherhood for the NCR. The idea of killing them offends my sensibilities but I understand that I will gain NCR infamy if I don't kill them. What escapes logic is why the programmers thought that a treaty and allies during the upcoming war with the Legion wasn't something to be desired.

So many moral ambiguities to this game. Betraying and killing those whom I have helped and joined is just plain wrong. Good thing no impressionable young people play this game.

You gain infamy because the NCR has a long standing conflict with the BoS. That being said the infamy is minor, if you've gained little or no infamy with the NCR before hand it won't effect your standings with them.

Er...You seem to take democracy as a universal term all of humanity knows and loves. This is rather naive, to surely believe humanity can rebuild democracy when really Shady Sand's wasn't democratic at all until after the Vault Dweller came. That and you seem to tie democracy in wih the NCR as if it can be 'abused' at times. Not really understanding how democracy works or maybe you believe there is a universal democracy which only the NCR represents (Minus the Courier's Mojave Republic in the future) while other factions are merely tyrannical organizations.

That and you make democracy sound like a sincere easy, cake walk. Sorry to break the news; it's not. Democracy is a hard thing to manage mainly because the different democracies for the different classes or different people conflict with each other. NCR Democracy would conflict with Mid-Western Brotherhood Democracy for one is bent on conqering the wasteland while making a few million NCR dollars out of it. Not really giving a care for the people.

The Other uses strategy, power, and relationships to build their strength and ultimately destroy discrimination by force. NCR does not do this, nor will they ever do this. That and NCR citizens of high class (Gamblers) seem to really have an high ego of themselves and their power.

But, once again, tell me how exactly the NCR is democratic? I mean the Enclave also states it has a President, a Senate, and a House of represenatives. So is the Enclave democratic as well just for these simply organs of state power? There has to be more, obviously.

Though we're never told of these negotiation deals, or what they entailed. Just that it was negotiated and the NCR came victorious in that negotiation. How does this exactly prove the NCR is democratic when they give a diplomatic deal? Diplomacy does not equate democractic rights or principals. Just an easier way to gain what the desired outcome without much bloodshed.

Also...are you forgetting the Glow? Or New Glow? Cities of the NCR which are filled with Ghouls, and then theres Posideon's industries factory near Vault City which would mean ghouls were either second class citizens or workers. But, much like Ceaser's Legion, they'd say its an honor to die in battle. To die in the name of whatever cause it is.

In this case NCR soldiers are told they're dying for Democracy. More so dying for Kimball and Oliver lee..

Also, are you denying that the Fiends and SuperMutants at Vault 87 have a society? For, even though they are what they are, they are building a sort of society. Unless what is your definition of Society? I want to know, personally, since you seem to nick-pick nations or tribes that seem good for societies. Anything else is rather a ruthless tyrant. In which case they may be, but they are a society by action, defintion, and practical useage of the word.

Though mostly likely NCR will be out for revenge, just look at the Brotherhood. (In an Independent or House ending)

You make it sound like humanity is incapable of having a democratic government in the post war world, which I don't support. You also aren't making any case for how the legion tyranny is a better to rule over the Mojave then the NCR. And the mid-western brotherhood is small chapter, thats canon live with it. If they came into contact with the NCR they'd be crushed faster then the far larger and more powerful west coast chapters. Assuming any conflict actually arose.


There is no New Glow, your thinking of Dayglow which Canon wise ghouls prefer to gather around areas with radiation, Dayglow was built in one of the highest radiation effected areas in the game series so naturally only ghouls would live there. The old west tech facility would have loads of salvage for some radiation immune residents not to mention great protection from raiders or anyone else.


I wasn't denying it, I was simply saying the wasteland could do with out those society. Notice the topic title is the moral dilemma. I'm not saying the NCR is the best choice, I'm saying there better then the Legion a lot better.



The NCR holds elections, people come and go out of office, Tandi was president for 52 years due to her popularity the citizens can vote. We can't really be sure if the Enclave citizens vote, they kind of got blown up before we could really learn the details of there politics.



Lets compare it to some of the stuff we do see.
The NCR will negotiate peace with the BoS[proving they are willing] giving back the salvage suits of power armor in exchange the BoS patrols the highway. During the Kings Gambit, Hsu will offer freeside more food and water in exchange for the kings stopping the violence against NCR citizens. To which the king replies "Oh that sounds pretty reasonable" Moore's methods on both parties isn't negotiation but extermination so we can safely say she wasn't part of the negotiation.

Then you have Primm's ending.[if they joined the NCR]
After Hoover Dam, NCR helps rebuild Primm as a major stopping point on the Long 15. Though Primm's citizens chafe under NCR's taxes, they benefit greatly from the increased protection and merchant traffic. I think benefit greatly out weighs chafing which is usually considered a minor.

So clearly the NCR is capable of making agreeable terms.

And you make it sound like its the easiest thing in the world. Especially when, you know, most books and knowledge of 'democracy' were destroyed along with most of the world during the Great War. But you seem to be not noticing how powerful the mid-western brotherhood is? Since lets compare armies. We know that the NCR is largely human, with some ghouls(only evidence is that of Echo which is very debateable by far) along with vertibirds. But never for armed military conflicted it seems.

Now there's the Mid-Western Brotherhood which has pre-war technology (AMPs, Jeeps, Tanks, Robots of Death, etc) and a various ammount of a mutli-species army concerning of Deathclaws, SuperMutants, Ghouls, Humans and Robots all under their direct control. Notice how the Deathclaws are also intelligent, and also capable of battle strategies. Since an average soldier of the NCR can not stand a chance against a Mark I Securitron and a Ranger can have trouble with a Mark II Securitron imagine an entire army of highly advanced robots varying from foot soliders to tanks and beyond. Which almost destroyed the Mid-Western Brotherhood, so you really think the NCR has a power that can crush the Mid-West? That's like beliving the Eastern Brotherhood can easily destroy the West.

And even the Wesern Brotherhood can't stand much of a chance against the Mid-west. So you have power armor, and some high weaponry. (In this case..Guass rifles, lazer guns and Tri-lazers.) But not only does the enemy but they've gotten in tune with their locals. They've beome saviors, heroes,and uniters of the wastes. They have a larger army, and more diverse policy on species. The Mid-West knows they and the West will soon comein contact with each other; and when that day comes. "Only One Brotherhood will remain..." Since they're every way different. West is Isolated. Mid-West is open but harsh to those who threaten stability in the territories.(Raiders and such) West shall never share technology with those outside the Brotherhood without either A; proving themselves or B; being the main character.

But am I saying the Legion i better? No. I hate he Legion as much as you, if not more. But, unlike you, I have no love for the New California Republic as well. Most factions in the previous Fallout games



And this meaning that the Ghoul population is, at least, a half of the human population since DayGlow is a densely populated city in cannon. Not to mention it is also one of those cities which has many food production within its walls.



Which is right, they can do alot better then the Legion if I was given the choice of NCR or Legion with no exceptions. I would be with the NCR. But there are more choices, and the concept of the NCR being a democracy that has simply taken the wrong step or moving out of line doesn't seem right. They've done alot of other wrongs(such as not even setting a date to which their president is relieved of his or her duties) from political, to economical to simply their lust for resources. NCR's democracy is one for those on the top of the NCR. Ceaser's Legion 'democracy' is for himself.

There should be (you and I know) should be a state where democracy is direct. But NCR's Democracy will not shift to this, for then NCR shall be a completely different state.





At Fallout 2 they had a President which means some form of Judical, Legislative and Elective brance must exist within the Enclave prior to the oil rig going ka-blooie. Now Enclave citizens would entail that of soliders and that of those small time people who were in the Rig. So there would be a process to choose a 'President of th United States(Or Commonwealths, your choice) of America'. Though we don't know exactly how it works due to them being rather..extinct. And I don't count the "Eastern Enclave" mainly because an entire computer controlling the Enclave is rather silly due to them wanting to re-create America. Not just a computer tell them what to do on how to be 'efficent' in this or that. (Due to their paranoia of war arising and being the losers, this led to the creation of Vaults.)

That and NCR elected her for 52 years because there was no limit on the presidential holdings, and the Senate couldn't say anything against her. It was merely a political move on their part to let this President come and go, sadly those happy times of the NCR went with it.(And since she took over as Mayor when her dad died, doesn't seem so democratic at first..) Curse you new Reno!





That is because they want a source of domination within Freeside, much like having the quests of Vault city being pro-NCR or not due to what choices you make with this political battle between them. But with Freeside, it becomes more of a 'they defend freeside' to more of a 'a bug to be squashed' as the NCR doesn't give a full attention to Freeside NCR squatters to begin with. First its to gain local support, which they failed out. So they stop, and search to force their ways out. So even the progressive NCR squatters and troops are left behind in their conquest.

With the Brotherhood, it's an offer that chapter can't resist. Peaceful development, with NCR giving no bother to them, while gaining power armor at the same time just to patrol roads. The BoS gains much and loses little out of an offer like that.



Merchant trafic would include that of the Crimson Caravan and independent ones heading east as the NCR expands its territories. (Notice Mojave wouldn't be a state like Los Angelos or The Maja but rather a military advised territory.) The benefits would increase in primm but to a new class. The new wealthy business men of Primm, of Noav, of Nipton, of New Vegas, etc. The average people, would stil have their average jobs and average lives. Those who do deals with them (Such as the Baron Lord Heck Gunderson) would make deals with other cities out east and west in order to gain more markets and more of a benefitial edge when the NCR turns its head.

Agreeable terms, only last until somene disagrees with the situation

Obviously enough knowledge survived, FO1 is only 100 years post Great War so its very few generations removed it wouldn't be that lost. Rangers are an elite group of soldiers especially the ones in the black armor. So obviously the rangers at echo had to earn there badge. NCR territory would also include the Necropolis and Gecko power plant. Obviously the NCR is largely human as there are very few ghouls and super mutants compared to normal folk. Not being born makes for a small population.


What part of the mid-western brotherhood is a small chapter don't you understand? The mid-western brotherhood is mentioned in Fallout 3. as a small rogue detachment in Chicago. This really implies that the calculator melted down. So the midwest BoS has no army, no huge defense. They are a small detachment until you provide evidence to the contrary. That aside much of tactics was considered non-canon BEFORE Bethesda took over the series, Chris Taylor apologized for failing to keep tactics inline with lore and the previous games. In tactics they screwed up the origin of the BoS, had ghouls suffer from radiation poisoning and the intelligent deathclaws was also a mistake as the only intelligent deathclaws were of Enclave origin.[and they all died]

To sum up, the mid-western brotherhood is a small chapter until you provide evidence otherwise.


I don't get where your getting this food production or dense population stuff, its not found anywhere. From what little we know of the place its a ghoul town who scavenge the ruins of west tech facility.


How do you figure?, most of the folks appear to work for the Casino so increased traffic makes the citizens of Primm into the wealthy class? you can't say that there unnamed jobs wouldn't be effected by having more customers or more clients or not having to worry about a raider walking into town and shooting a dozen people.

Yet no where in Fallout One was there ever a city 'democractic' before the Vault Dweller came and beard his influence upon the California. And then Mayor goes down in a hetriatical society, who knew democracy begins with blood line...

Anyways; yes the SuperMutant population would be small. Though Van Burne was going to have some instances where ghouls can be born this is 'non-cannon'. Such is how our favoirte tree-head ghoul got from Califorina to the East coast like it was nothing...



Fallout Tactics was still a great game, but I really (really) dont care if in Fallout 3 says this or says that. Fallout 3 states the whole irradiated water problem was solved, and Brotherhood served peacefully for all timez~. That and Christ Talyor did a Superb job on the story of Tactics. All you really provide for the Mid-west Brotherhood is a refence in Fallout 3, which has its own poor references in any case. But we were only told they all died in order for the creators to not expand on it, in Fallout bible 9 it says otherwise. In Fallout bible 12, then it states that Intelligent deathclaws no longer exist. In any case; do you even know the relative size of both Brotherhoods? For let's compare current statistics then (if there were any available) of the West's numbers and the Mid-West's numbers. In which case even if the Caculator melted down, they still can recruit vllagers and ultimately expand their influence by teaching the locals of old ways. Oh Wait. They did, in any ending of Fallout Tactics. From Good to Berkly.

And you really can't deny that there can't be any more Intelligent Deathclaws in Fallout. That's like saying "There will be no more intelligent Super Mutants" or "there will be no more human friendly ghouls!". It'll happen, for Fallout has many possibilites.
To sum up, the mid-western brotherhood is a small chapter until you provide evidence otherwise.




city was supposed to be introduced in Fallout 2, never happened. So became non-cannon other then by name. So whatever Fallout wiki says of it, will be the first idea of it. That and if NCR was growing and Glow had now become a city of ghouls, don't you think it'd be dense due to the amount of refugees from Necropolis that would come into the city after Set and his band of ghouls lost to the SuperMutants?




1; New Reno anyone?

2; We have to think about this economically of how people are beneifited or having a negative part in the Fallout World. So far you seem to state that nothing else will be made from an NCR expansion into the Mojave, which really tries to back off of the prospect of how new wealth comes into the area and new merchants will benefit those who do trade. For not all citizens of primm will be trades or owners of Casinos. You don't see the Mojave Express as a bustling enterprise, but then imagine of how large it will be when the NCR has firm control? Then compare that to Barons that will come and Future Barons of the Mojave who will come about by busniess experitese and wanting to control the best ferile land in the area.

You basically have monopolies (Example of Barons versing the small time Brahmin ranchers) in an effort to gain the most profits in this new spectrum. In Primm whoever will be Mayor shall head most of the tragifficing deals along with his associates. You're saying they will not get any major benefits at all or any more wealth then say the street vendor?

That's one of the reasons I install Myers as sheriff.....he doesn't strike me as the type that can be bought. If someone like Gunderson tries to send his goons to lean on Primm residents Myers will send them home in a box.

- Surely nothing can ever be wrong with using the lifeforce of a paladin. He has sworn to give his life to protect the weak. And you are just calling him on that oath. Hell if you play your cards right you can get the paladin and the innocents to give up their lives for free, without any coercion. /Snicker. (My brother.... I used to live in that Alignment with my toon.)


I've played the game through about six times now. Extensive playthroughs.

I favor house as the "lesser evil".

Caesars legion raqes, murders pillages, uses the fiends as mercs (And the fiends in turn killed off an entire vault, men woman and especially children) uses torture as the rule, and has the worst trimmings of both sparta and rome without any redeeming qualities.

NCR is yet another political collosus on clay feet. They really don't care about the weak, and whilst they don't outright use torture they will employ people who do (refoulment). In some cases they will outright kill people for minor infringements such as commenting on a cheating wife. They are spread out too thin to make an effective protective force... a spread that will be even worse afte the loss of personell after Hoover. They don't endure other factions within their territory. The more or less unarmed followers are sent packing, and the kings are "encouraged" (thats political language for "we dont have the force to shove our will down your throat yet but when we do, we will not hesitate") to join. Taxes will not stay in Nevada... nah... those taxes will go home to politicians who will field artillery fodder with crap sub-par equipment, intelligence and training to "protect" the locals... or at least ensure they pay the taxes. At home it will be the politician with the greatest popularity who wins. And in a world without mass media that will be "Legates" returning from a successfull campain (as the current prez) or someone backed with enough caps to ensure the electorate sees his pic and hears his name.

House will create a strong economy. And in the end whilst House is a "benevolent dictator" bent on visions for humanity, rather than a "humane" approach to the future, its the players with caps who end up with more than visions... because they can make those visions come true.

I think that the NCR is just as bad as Caesar's Legion in terms of discrimination. The evidence? Major Knight. Both factions are discriminating, so the NCR isn't above Caesar's Legion at all, when it comes to toleration

anyway, IMO, the best choice is indy Vegas. I wouldn't let it be entirely independent though, instead choose 5 wastelanders to rule over New Vegas:
- Marcus, he's just smart
- Julie Farkas, probably not the best politician but still she's able to lead a faction that is nothing but a blessing to the Mojave desert. She has revolutionary ideals and giving her the power to persue them would result in a promising future for New Vegas. Her socialism and The King's liberalism go well together.
- The King, the least qualified of all 5, but still doesn't seem like a bad choice. He may have conservative ideas, but I think this is mostly because of Pacer, without Pacer, I think the King is a lot more reasonable. He leads a faction that makes Freeside a better place to live, and doesn't abuse his power even though many would.
- Ambassador Crocker, would be hard to recruit him after punching the NCR in the face, but I don't think he cares that much if he gets all this power. He's a born diplomat, and diplomacy rarely results in misery.
- Veronica, . Has revolutionary ideas and sees things on the right scale. Even though she grew up in an environment where she was tought that staying in a hole in the ground and follow the codex without questioning it was the right way to live, she still is able to see through it.

if only.. :sadvaultboy: