Hello! I'm at the point in the game where I've explored probably over 95% of the map. I've invested over 125 hours in the game, but now I'm at the point where I need to decide how to deal with Mr. House. I confess that I've been a little impatient at times and haven't read word-for-word every little thing said by the different factions, so my understandings of each faction may be incomplete. Regardless, the following is what I gather from my gaming thus far:

NCR: Good at heart; eager to take the moral high ground but arrogant and sometimes careless in their endeavor to do good. Their eagerness to improve the remnants of mankind sometimes causes the suffering if innocent people who serve as obstacles to their expansion.
Legion: Evil, plain and simple - I killed Caeser and every other Legion member I came across. Witnessing the aftermath at Nipton was enough to clarify my perspective enough that I feel confident in my belief that they should all be destroyed for the betterment of mankind.
Brotherhood of Steel: Good at heart; strongly clinging to the belief that by hoarding technology they can control it in such a way as to prevent history from repeating itself. They believe technology was misused which resulted in the near destruction of mankind. As a result, they wish to control it themselves, no matter the cost. They don't want to kill innocent people but won't let that get in the way of procuring potentially destructive technology in the hands of outsiders.
The Great Khaans: Good at heart, but wrecklace and shortsighted by nature; unable to move beyond their hate toward NCR and their hunger for justice. While none can contest a great tragety was committed against them by NCR, the Great Khaan's are literally unable to let go of the past and look to a brighter future. They also serve as a foundation for the Fiends, a drug addicted group of murderers and rapists. In short, without the Great Khaans, the Fiends will eventually die out. Thus, I reluctantly destroyed the Great Khaan camp with two motivations in mind: 1) to prevent a lot more deaths in a suicidal attack on NCR at the dam, and 2) to ensure a safer future by eliminating the root cause of people joining the Fiends.
The Strip: A collection of businesses, the largest of which known as the "three families." The white mask society was dealt with and the cannibals killed. Also, the Gemorrah family plot was destroyed with the death of some of its members. Benny from Tops was killed as collateral damage when nuking Caeser in his tent. Thus, stability has been restored in the Tops casino. In a nutshell, though largely corrupt and misguided, the three families have been largely neutralized and no longer pose a serious threat to the advancement of mankind. Las Vegas, though the wealthiest and most reminiscent of a pre-war city, is only a very small part of a much larger collective which represents the current state of mankind. If kept in check, the Strip will inevitably grow through business and capitalism. While corruption will always be a nuscence requiring repeated intervention, progress is still progress; such is growth.
Mr. House: Well intentioned, but cold at heart; confident in his belief that his way is the best way to ensure the continued success, growth, and evolution of mankind. He believes he can facilitate the revival of mankind and oversee its evolution to the stars and beyond. Unfortunately, despite the fact that I believe he is capable of making these visions for the future a reality, his methods are extremely disturbing to me. He wants me to destroy everyone in the Brotherhood of Steal and arrange for NCR's military to be driven back to such an extent that hundreds or even thousands of good people will be killed.

If anyone would like to correct me or add to any of the above, please feel free to do so. I'm hoping this thread will turn into an intelligent discussion about the moral philosophy surrounding these issues. The problem I am having is in choosing the 'lesser evil.' Is it justifiable to commit a great and terrible act of mass murder to ensure a bright future for people who aren't even alive yet? If the answer is yes, then Mr. House may be the person to side with. Or should the real issue be the here and now, not the what may or may not exist in the future? However flawed, don't those currently struggling to find their way deserve a chance, however remote and unlikely it may seem that they might succeed? Is it good enough to have good intentions and be good at heart? If so, perhaps the 'lesser evil' would be to destroy Mr. House, thereby giving the NCR and the Brotherhood of Steel a fair chance at their own evolution toward a better and brighter future for mankind. I literally can't decide. My first instinct was to disconnect Mr. House, but let him continue to live, but upon doing so I lost karma. This caused me to pause because I generally don't do anything in the game which results in a loss of karma. I tried killing him instead, figuring it was a more merciful solution (since he asked to die once I severed his control over the robots), but I still lost karma. The loss of karma isn't my main concern, though. I'm really just trying to figure out what is the best course of action. I'm very much interested in reading some thoughts from members of this community.

Stopped reading there.

You are being to harsh on Ceasers legion. If you talked to Ceaser instead of just killing him, you would have realised that although merciless, he is not totally evil and what he says actually makes sense. Not all members of CL like slavery, and anyway Anthony and another litenant whose name i cant remember, ceasers closest allies, were enslaved into the legion, and they actually think it did them good! There tribes were killed and they were forced to join the legion, and they were thankful. Nipton is the harsh end of the legion, but also keep in mind that we only see the invading forces of the legion and none of the cities that they created in new mexico or arizona.

I don't really want to post many spoilers on this but here goes.
These are from the 5+ endings I've run through, and people I've talked with in game.
Not my personal favourites or even opinions tbh.

House is by far the best in the long run for a smart good build, except with the BoS you will with thought and planning see everyone happy.

caesars legion, I've only done a bad run through but find them flawed to say the least.
All due to caesar himself I found, without him now they're bad.
Before if he had no involvment and they formed from within their own societies I could relate more.
That said they're the worst option for the Mojave I've found imo.

NCR, flawed is all I can say.
Good people, bad planners.
Free independent, mostly good and hard working, but liable to flawed judgement and over looking stupid horrible mistakes.

Great Khans, of all the factions the Khans have a joint perfect ending depending on player choice.
They really do have the one happy ending with no dark undertones.
However by and large it's the player that decides for them, left on their own it's all bleak.

Followers, this is the group linked to the Khans a great ending but more than likely due to die out badly.

Powder gangers, pretty much doomed, though I like to make believe otherwise.

What moral dilemma? If you want to judge everyone according to your standard independent is the way to go.

You forgot about yes man, he doesnt say yes all the time and tends to be about 80% evil as house WAS(maybe some of houses systems infected it?), I see yes man as a seperate faction than mr.house.

Brotherhood(BoS) doesnt gather all tech or the brotherhood would steal all your unique weapons.

I killed Caesar as i heard he was dying anyway and they like to use slaves and crucify people(I guessed they were all evil beacause of this),They are almost opposite of NCR as they protect their people and land but they expand their land slower than NCR.

NCR likes to own all the land but dont want to protect it?

Fiends are like BoS but more drugged, less armoured and less organised(basically more corrupt).

Deathclaws are not a faction but they are forcing me to put them in. :cryvaultboy:

EDIT: changed to make more sense and less spoilers needed.

You're broadly correct, however:

The NCR is overly ambitious and is paying a high price for it, in efficiency as well as morality. For all their good intentions, they're also ruthless and, on occasion, treacherous (think of the order to kill the Great Khans in Boulder City in violation of the terms on which they released hostages, or their decision to destroy the Brotherhood, or the exclusion of Freeside residents when handing out food). On the up side, however, they're the only ones actually trying to build up infrastructure that isn't exclusively military.

The Legion is evil. It's not in question. When even the Van Graffs think you're evil, that says something. They have no good relations with virtually ANY of their neighbors, and any group that is foolish enough to collaborate with them gets wiped out once they've ceased being useful (the diary of the Legion ambassador to the Great Khans is a good example). Whatever it is they created back in New Mexico or Arizona cannot be worth the price of mass murders and slavery. On top of that- and it doesn't seem to get much mention in these discussions- the Legion enforces institutionalized discrimination against women, Ghouls, Super Mutants- anyone but human male Legionnaires. If you want to set the world up for a few hundred years of savagery, by all means choose the Legion.

House is a non-solution, I'm afraid. He is promising spaceships to other planets in 50 years, which I think is his way of telling you that you won't live long enough to see it being done. Meanwhile, he is svcking the Mojave dry and hoarding absurd wealth in the Strip in the hands of the likes of the Omerta thugs and the White Glove Society cannibals. Let's face it, the absolute worst situation in all of the Mojave is in areas like Freeside that are immediately adjucent to the Strip. I suspect the Mojave will become one big Freeside long before House launches anything into space.

The Brotherhood, the Followers and other factions don't really matter, as only the above three can take the lead. Well, you can too, supposedly, but the one to actually govern will be the Yes Man, and he doesn't strike me as terribly trustworthy in the long term.

House in his own words doesn't want to go to war with the NCR, if they weren't trying to steal Vegas from him he'd be perfectly fine to let them keep what they have. He saved Vegas, he set up the three families and the strip. By all rights New Vegas does belong to him. But the NCR won't be happy with control of the dam. They want everything.




I talked to Caesar he and the legion are still evil. Those who hated what the legion had done to there tribe would have been killed. So its a one sided poll. Peace through tyranny, slavery and brutality is not the future you want for the wasteland.



How is he svcking the wealth of he Mojave dry? he's bringing in the NCR and the NCR bring money. And considering much of the Mojave being one big freeside would be an improvement. So what if you don't live to see those colony ships. Your still on the ground floor to something grand.

It's a matter of perspective.

Their slavers, they butcher townsfolk, treat women like cattle. And exterminate or assimilate anyone they come across. And they crucify god knows how many people.

I don't see another perspective.

:shrug:

I consider them good people.

And the NCR gets money by escalating taxes on caravan trade, on water etc. because, as one NCR NPC puts it, Vegas is svcking them dry.


But you will never know if there ever actually was anything grand.

The House situation reminds me of one of the stories about Mullah Nasreddin, a character from Central Asian folk tales. One day, Nasruddin boasted to Timur, king of the Mongols, that he was a great teacher. "Really now?" Timur laughed. "Can you teach your donkey to read?" "Of course I can!" said Nasreddin. "I'll need ten thousand gold dinars and twenty years." "Fine," said Timur. "You'll be given the money, but if in twenty years your donkey still can't read, I will cut off your head."
When Nasreddin told his friends about the bet with Timur, they were horrified. "What have you done?" they said. "Timur is a man of his word; he WILL cut off your head!". "Calm down, friends," Nasreddin said with a smile. "Twenty years is a long time. Before that time runs out, either I will die, or Timur will die, or the donkey will die".

As one NCR soldier puts it, and the money the soldiers and tourists blow on gambling is there own business. It be the war svcking the NCR economy dry. And all those taxes don't effect the Mojave if its independent from Vegas. Canada doesn't tax Mexico.


You won't live to see how the NCR or the Legion or Independent turns out in 100 years. So by your logic you shouldn't help them either. Just because you won't live see the end result doesn't make it any less worth doing.

And you *might* not be alive in 100 years, But you could easily live for another fifty or sixty years. Long enough to see what progress is made. Also I wouldn't put it past house to figure a way to keep his lieutenant alive. If you were willing you could probably become some kind of cyborg similar to Rex.

Wow, some of you people must really have a lot of time on your hands to think about things that deeply. I say pick whoever you want because unless they come out with a DLC that lets you play after the end-game, the only thing that matters much is how you want it to end.

A good story makes you think, just because this one is interactive doesn't mean it should be simple.

I didn't mean it doesn't make you think or it should be simple, just that I never knew some people would turn it into a philosophical question. Oh and by the way If I go with Mr. House or Yes Man, do both their endings end by kicking the NCR out of the Mojave?

However on my last play I did think, I worked out the exact way that if true to events..
You could get to the dam without any factions being hostile, a combination of choosing who to aid when.
Which quests to fail, and which to succede at.
The exact timing of when to play off the factions, and which ones had to die.
All this led to.....

Nada but the same yes man route with CL automatically being hostile, followed by NCR.
The same quest I'd completed and the the exact same way to finish it akin to House' and a normal Yes man run.

I'm not tooting my own horn here, but I actually found a completely non faction neutral path that favoured no sides.
I worked my fingers off, and the ending showed none of that.
All due to some lazy idea that pops up those, eyes are everywhere watching you flags.
If they had been watching they would have seen formaldehyde - ing shadows and smoke.

I love NV but that ending is just sloppy imo.

The way I see it between the 3 major factions is that it is a choice. Far flung future grandeur at a heavy price now, Future stability at necessarily cruel costs now, or a shaky future at the price of a shaky present.

House is probably right in his assessment of the future under his control, but it would really hurt a lot of people now. As the others said, it would economically destroy the Mojave. But the future would be very grand, for some people...

Ceaser strikes me as the only one who can guarantee future stability in my opinion. His entire moral platform is that human kind NEEDS an empire like his, that without it we will fall to the might of the wastelands. In this sense, he is correct. The NCR is laboring to hold its head above water, and I doubt it has the strength to continue as it is going much longer. Ceaser isn't the only strong force out there that my topple the NCR. If Ceaser wins then he will stabilize the wastelands and likely guarantee the continued existence of mankind. Most of the leaders in the Legion don't feel right about the inequality issues, so even if Ceaser does not back down on that, it will likely be changed in the future. Nipton is the result of one man's decision and we have no evidence that that is the standard treatment of captured towns. It was just as likely a rogue lieutenant going for ironic manslaughter or a whorish gambling town. A nation can't be judged by a single person, even the NCR has morally corrupt members. Take the McCallen interrigator lady for instance, she wants to torture a prisoner of war, but can't because she'll get in trouble. So what does she do? She sends a complete stranger into the room with instructions to torture him for the information. Real fine moral example, eh? Legion victory would svck for "our" generation, but I believe it would lead to the only truly stable future.

NCR is floundering, and I can't see them continuing much longer. It is mentioned that the newer soldiers don't have proper (Or sometimes any) equipment and no training. It is svcking the Mojave dry and will likely collapse in the end anyways. They are trying to hard to support their inner-territory at the cost of alienating their outer-territory. If the Legion doesn't stop them then I can easily seeing a rebellion out outer colonies doing it. Morally shaky, a crappy present and an unlikely future. I can't see supporting them.

In short, I think the immediate future is going to svck, the Mojave is going to hurt for several more years at the least. I think Ceaser is the only reliable option for a brighter future.

O_O
Have you been reading my diary?
This is basically what I think of the factions.
Well, I have the theory that House cannot secure the future he wants cause his robots will at some point run out due to accidents, tribals, raiders, war bands, tech hoggers etc killing them.

NCR is... how shall I put this. The Good Bad Guys.

They want land. They want control. But they still oppose the obviously wrong stuff, like Caesar's Ideals.

Caesar is like them in alot of ways, but their the other side of the yin and yang symbol. They want land and control, but willing to do whatever they have to do get it.

House wants a world that he can control without being touched.

Great Khans are fine. THeyre just trying to live.

Powder gangers are dumbasses.

Good to see others of like-mind.

Personally, I can't see House losing his robots, he has the means to make more. If he doesn't, then his new-found army can make the means. House would live and succeed in his plans, but it would lead to such an elitist society that it could hardly be found favorable. Based on what I know of his protecting Vegas, and recent rise to power, I can't foresee much standing in his way if he acquires the Carrier's help.

I did talk to Caeser. I read everything he had to say. I still believe he and the Legion are http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evil . How any sane person could think anyone who promotes slavery to all living females, crucifixion and/or the burning alive of anyone who doesn't submit without hesitation or doesn't serve a useful purpose to his or her conquerors isn't evil is beyond reason. Such a person is either without conscience or [more likely] simply trying to get a reaction out of us for their own bigoted enjoyment, which is otherwise referred to as http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/724862-forum-rules-and-general-information/ (see T&C #5).

A great [modern] RPG game doesn't just offer cheap entertainment, it offers a story which requires or at least encourages thought and careful consideration. One of the main attractions and, even, intentions put forth by the developers was the ethical crisis associated with a theoretical post-apocalyptic society. They weren't necessarily intended to be realistic in context, but rather in complexity and a profound sense of cruciality. Who says you can't learn something from a piece of fiction, whether it's a movie, literature, mythology, or even a video game? Chances are none of us will ever be in circumstances even remotely similar to New Vegas in real life, but that doesn't mean one can't draw parrallels. Thus, not only is this discussion interesting, but through such discussions and subsequent self anolysis, one can also acquire a small measure of wisdom and self-awareness.

Some of the replies have been very interesting. Golem's and Lord Vukodlak's perspectives are especially intriguing. I agree with both of you on several points. It is fairly late though so I'll have to revisit this topic sometime tomorrow. Thank you all for your replies.

(I'm a House supporter, but I'll save the House defenses for the moment.)

To call Caesar and his Legion 'Evil' is easy to do. While I oppose the Legion, I can see things from their perspective, and honestly, if the Legion controlled the Mojave, I'd pray to God that Lanius never becomes crowned Caesar. Lanius is not named 'The Monster of the East' for nothing. Lanius is everything a monster is. He is a warhawk for the sake of war and death. Caesar is a ruthless Emporer and conquerer. But I feel the Legion would be destined for failure unless Caesar took a child under as his protege. The problem with the Legion is that it's people largely follow Caesar and not his ideals. The Legion doesn't do what's right, but they have the best of intentions at heart, the trader at The Fort and Raul prove that the Legion are fair in their homelands, saying that before the Legion, Arizona and New Mexico were full of bandits and Raiders everywhere. The problem with New Vegas as a game is, it fails to properly show us what Caesars Legion controlled territories are like. All we see are things like Nelson and Nipton, examples of their brutality but not their law and order.

Whose judging by a single person? you can judge the legion as evil, murdering, slaving SOB's without ever meeting its leader. And while the NCR may have people willing to break the rules against torture. The legion doesn't even pretend to have rules against brutality. There is at least hope for the NCR to get better.


Unless your a woman. So please give me the argument for why slavery and treating women as breeding stock is good. Oh and if possible give that argument to your mother or girlfriend and see how they react.

As Marcus says the legion follow Caesar not his ideals, when he dies be it via the Courier, old age, or cancer. The legion would crumble from infighting. House says something similar if you kill Caesar. One thing is clear Caesar is retraining the legion. The blood bath the legion causes is nothing compared to what it does if the Legate is in command.

Which is exactly the problem the legion can't survive much beyond Caesar. Its simply a giant band of raiders held together by a charismatic leader. Caesar is just a bully who crushes you if you don't agree with him.

So there is no long term or shot term for the Mojave.

My opinions on factions.

NCR- Alright, good I guess. I have no qualms other than the fact that I think they are too ambitious at times. However, they are weak in my opinion and are prone to crumbling due to them taking over just about everything they come across. Like marcus said, the stuff they do, running over people can cause revolutions to take place. Reminds me of America's expansion in some ways.

Caesar's Legion- I downright hate them for slavery, I don't support them. I do however understand why they can be a necessary evil. They provide unity and a sense of civilization (savage as it is at times) to various Tribals and raiders. As one caravan man put it, he doesn't even need mercs to travel with him because the roads are so devoid of bandits and raiders due to them being in awe and fear at Caesar's fury. They represent iron-fist security and order in the face of chaos and uncertainty. However, the belief that not using medicine weeds out the weak is just plain stupid in my opinion. And like I said before, I don't support the prospect of slavery. I do think they belong in the Capitol Wasteland, a place like that needs Caesar's Legion. I also think that it is possible they might crumble after Caesar dies due to internal conflict and strife. Maybe Lanius will keep order, but I think with that brutal Legate in power they will be a revolution.

Mr. House- My personal favorite. Won me over with the phrase "If you want to see the fate of democracies, look out the window". Re-civilized the three largest tribes in Vegas, made what was left of the strip into a pre-war paradise, has a great understanding of economy and industry the likes of which would be the envy of both the Legion and the NCR, knows how to re-create pre-war tech that only the Brotherhood can dream of, can restart where humanity left off and actually not only restore humanity but make potential significant advancements, incredibly intelligent, and in general would make a great boss/dictator. (unlike some people think dictators can be great if you get the right person)