First of all this is all assuming that Lorkhan is an Aedra, as I believe we have been told he is. That aside, I'll just jump right into it.

Alright, so this is (oviously) a topic about my theories on Lorkhan and Jyggalag. Through my scannings of lore, I have found a few things that I feel I should share, namely on the relationship between these two deities: Lorkhan, the change-aligned Aedra and Jyggalag, the stasis-aligned Daedra. As many of you should know, Aedra tend to be aligned with stasis, or order, while Daedra tend to be aligned with change, or chaos. So why would the very pillars of order and stasis have among their ranks the very avatar of change, and the chief agents of chaos have the most orderly of all with them?

My theory? These two are the linked antithesis of each other. There is more to prove this than the above paragraph. Lorkhan was 'killed,' his heart torn out and thrown out into Tamriel, where it formed Red Mountain, the rest of him becoming the moons, Masser and Secunda. Lorkhan was, against his will, made stable and unchanging. Jyggalag was also imprisoned, but differently. He was transformed into Sheogorath, the most chaotic of the Daedra. Both of them were forced into their own opposites, but still retained some part of their original selves. The moons change throughout the course of the month, and the Greymarch occurs every thousand years.

Here is a little side theory of mine. According to Sheogorath, the Greymarch happens "every era, at the end of the era." We also have documented cases of avatars of Lorkhan appearing, such as Pelinal Whitestrake and Tiber Septim. What is important about these avatars of Lorkhan? Well, they often appeared at the end of an era. Tiber Septim conquered Tamriel, ending the Second Era and bringing in the Third. Pelinal Whitestrake assisted Alessia in overthrowing the Ayleids and bringing in the First Empire. While this wasn't at the end of an era, it was nonetheless an extremely important event and happens only 250 years from the beginning of the First Era, a fairly short time. I think the the Greymarch coincides with the avatars of Lorkhan. Somehow, Jyggalag's enrergies bring Lorkhan out, so to speak. Well, now Jyggalag is back permanently. What will this mean for Lorkhan? Will he return? Will he disappear, as the vanishing moons seem to indicate? Or maybe the vanishing moons are a sign that Lorkhan is moving somewhere else? Maybe a great deal of his power will be put into a mortal, who will go through apotheosis much liek Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil?

And one more thought for you. Sheogorath is described as "the Sithis-shaped hole in the world." Maybe this "hole" was caused by the removal of Lorkhan's heart? Think about it, what else would put a hole in the world? And wouldn't a hole shaped like the Void be, basically, a blob or "something?" Maybe Jyggalag was imprisoned in this hole, somewhat like a Tartarus of sorts, which created Sheogorath mianly as a side-effect more than the actual intent?

Your thoughts, please.

would you look at that? I think we have a mortazo fan here!

I'm not seeing the relation between the regular occurance of the greymarch and the regular cycles of the moons. Mind explaining that one?

This all seems highly speculative, mind linking to your source materials?

Where? The only one stating something nearly similar, was Mankar Camoran, and he says Lorkhan was a Daedra.

Avatars of Lorkhan? Where do you have this from? I never heard something like that.

Really? try searching for shezzarine, underking, tiber septim, wulf, etc. Should give you enough info on the topic. I personally lack the knowledge to explain it adequately.

Trying to fit Jygallag into places will give you a headache. Apparently SI was written by people without knowledge of how other patterns of spirits and myths stood. The terms Aedra/Daedra and Order/Change Aligned are completely insufficient for describing Lorkhan and Jyg.

Also, Lorkhan already has his antithesis- Akatosh. The description of Jyg as a cursed being that comes out every thousand years conflicts with the Sithis-Shaped Hole myth.

Everyone is an avatar of the Lil' Lo'man.

The OP will find this of interest:
http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=862853&hl=

Yeah and no. Lorkhan is of Padomaic origin. Aedra are of Anuic origin. Fundamentally, he ain't Aedra, though he is responsible for creation of Nirn.



edit: Concering this, I guess you could just refer to the relative bits I've already stated about Jyggalag's origin.



To reiterate what has been stated about Shor's antithesis, nah. That's Aka. Aka and Shor are mimics of Anu and Padomay: A Infinite Force is Contained by an embodiment of Limit, e.g. Anuiel (Everything) is Contained by Sithis (Nothingness). Aka (Time) is Contained by Shor (Space). Look at it as the Infinite force being kept in a vessel of sorts to allow it's existence.

Certain individuals (I think Mortazo is included, which may or may not discredit this viewpoint...) think that the Creation of Mundus caused the creation of Sheog; Exactness (Jyg: The personification of the absence of Static Change) is flipped into his antithesis, Uncertainty (Sheog: the personification of the uncertainty of Life).



The Tiber Septim and Alessia bits just tie into the Rebel-King BS, in my opinion; just the good ol' 11 Forces doin' what they do best. I will say that it is interesting that SI happened when the empire is gonna get screwed to crap.

Oh yeah: Lorkhan IS coming back. And Nirn, including the entire Aurbis, is screwed. How can it exist if it's anchor is gone?



Concering the Sheog bits, of course; check what I said above. You lost me with the blob bit....

Let it be noted that Sheo and Shezarr have very similar spheres. Let it also be noted that Sheo's "creation" coincides with Shezarr's "death". Let it also be noted that all of this pre-dates SI ( paw prints...).

I mean, I'm not fan of using the terms Aedra and Deadra due to their very large limitations, but there is a clear echo between the Sehzarr/Akatosh conflict and the Sheo/Jyg one (and the Malacath/Trinimac one, but I regress). There is definitly a possibility of some sort of mantling going on.

But aren't Aedra and Daedra usually defined as "the ones who made the world" and "the ones who didn't?" Wouldn't that make Lorkhan an Aedra, despite being Padomay-aligned like the Daedra?

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml#4

The definitions are semantic, not scientific. You would be wise not to look for patterns and things of significance through labeling different spirits.

well I'd say I agree with makar camoran when he said that lorkhan was a daedra and that nirn was his realm. The realm of change actually, because his creatures are in constant motion. The reason why it would be that much bigger than any other daedric realms is because he tricked the aedra into helping him and bind them to the realm, such a becoming the heart bones etc. And that would be why they tore out his heart. After all 8 aedra began to do the world to their image. That's why makar was angry, that a daedric realm was ruled by imposters.

As for jyggalag I dont know, maybe because no one want that kind of order, especially not daedra

Mankar, though he may have said a lot of [censored] that made sense, is still wrong; Lorkhan's sphere is Space, not constant, or rather Static, Change. Shor just provided a vessel for such an infinite force of time to stay in; he basically limited it, just as Sithis limited Anuiel.

Shor's death can still be seen as intentional, to show others what NOT to do to succeed at the Endeavor.

And I'm sure the minions of the Daedric lords are constantly in motion too...

I thought Lorkhan's sphere was freedom, and he created a realm of possibility, even the possibility to supersede that realm?

See, no one agrees and in being interpreted by every race he acts like an Aedra, like an ancestor. The Daedra are universal. You won't see many people arguing over their spheres.

If the Aedra tore out his heart and took over his realm, why is his heart down here and his flesh up there, instead of vice-versa. Nirn should be a moon colony with the heart as an orbiting star.

Although your arguments are interesting and have the taste of Lore I'm not convinced that Nirn or the et'Ada and their next phase incarnations are entirely as they present or perceive themselves - my thread on the Grey Maybe is there to try and explore ways to establish another avenue of inquiry that can be used to surround these questions because parts of them keep on circling without resolution or progress.

You guys keep assuming that because it is written the writer necessarily knows his stuff - but what if the writer was simply enjoying the process of creation without really understanding what he has written? It can still be Lore ... but it may not actually represent the deepest level of understanding. Then what is written my represent the misunderstanding/s of the being/s commenting - and why not?

I still maintain that if Jyg is Sheo, and Sheo is the sithis-shaped hole....
Then that makes Jyg the sithis-shaped hole. However, people of nirn don't know enough to explain it in this context, since nobody knows Jyg is Sheo. Now, what would this make Jyg?
An echo of Lorkhan sans heart (i.e. without imagination).
The other Aedra dislike Lorkhan. The other Daedra dislike Jyg. I know it's been done to death (mainly by me despite Proweler protesting vehemently against it), but the old lore and the new lore don't totally exclude one another if you take the old lore to be a metaphor for what we now know to be true.

Also, to the OP...
It's been said by some and felt by others that the CoC is a Shezzarine. If this is true, it lends credibility to your theory. Jyg is active in OB during the end of an era while the Shezzarine is active on Nirn. The difference, this time, is that they actually came together. The Shezarrine became the new Sheo mantler. If Jyg truly is an echo/aspect of Lorkhan, then you have a situation that parallels the infamous number 11 anology.

... bwuh?

I mentioned that a long time ago. http://www.imperial-library.info/gttpo/ Read http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#11 too.