Your quotes are definitely from deep in something dark but it's not lore. Those quotes are from no established lore and the source those quotes come from has so many holes in it that it might as well be swiss cheese. They could have a circular border, but it makes more sense that the forces of change and stasis merged and the chaos that formed was Sithis. Frankly, it also doesn't that if Alduin is Akatosh that he would be one to end the world and reform it, seeing as how he is an et'ada of Anu, he would do everything in his power to keep Mundus constant instead of trying to destroy it. Also, you made a comment that Mundus was linear on the inside and the wheel was cyclical on the outside. Well wouldn't the inside of Mundus only be bound by the linear time instead of the cyclical time?



Uggh I just had an image of two spheres of force having six. How dare non-sentient forces have six!

and I refute that wholly.
As far as I can tell your only reasoning for not considering it lore lies that it is not actually in game, as such
My, you even refute the last report to Trebonius, while all in it was made clear in game, just put together for dummies.

Look, if you even cant accept the word of god..

And while many people have tried to inform you that a world eater is not at all out of place for a time god, you keep holding on to your intial beliefs.

Look its all fine and dandy.
But at some point you have to acknowledge that your theory of how things are just does not fit with how things actually work
There is no shame in that. People do not have to get it right first come first serve.

like i said before, i really hope alduin is akatosh, because i want to avenge the banishment of mehrunes dagon

While we a talking about the wheel; Are there anyone who has drawn a sketch of how it works?

I can imagine it in my head, but I kinda wanna make sure I'm correct.

I'm not sure this is true, but I'm also not sure I'm understanding the situation you have in mind.

Suppose we have two spheres, with non-empty overlap. Now, in general, this set will not be a sphere. It depends upon the curvature of the spheres, and the extent and position of the overlapping region.

But maybe what you have in mind is something like this. Take a plane which cuts through the overlapping region. What is the set of points which lies in the intersection of the plane and the overlapping region? You might be right that this is a circle, but I haven't checked, and I doubt it. I suspect that it is at least always an ellipse.

(How much this matters for TES scholarship, I have no idea).

So I reread the Last Report again and as I said, it is fan made. It has pieces of canon but it also has Vekh's teachings and other obscure texts that are not canon and thus not viable lore. I'm not sure who/what you consider god that has created the Last Report of Trebonius. Because Kirkbride is definitely not god, I respect his writing styles but he isn't the all knowing lore god. The problem is what you take as lore doesn't actually work or fit with the rest of the canonical lore and yet people still assume it must be true just because "god" wrote it. The problem is that I could be wrong but the "facts" giving in the non-canonical lore don't fit with established lore and thus must also be false. My theory is based on all the lore available and it can definitely be wrong, but the wheel lore is definitely not true, at least unless BGS decides to pick up it up as canon.

Take only the outline of the sphere as being boundry and relevant.
Where two spheres collide, if one only takes the boundry, the colliding, shared event must be a circle
I am sure that more advanced mathemagicians can envision other shapes, but the simplest is and must be the circle.
For purposes of energy conservation we must assume that a circle is what it is.

At Sleign, look if you really are paramount to refute established lore on the basis it is not lore, I have no avenue.
I would be like the scientist showing you fossils while you recounter that the grand canyon is evidence of Noah's flood.

Well... I don't think energy conservation is a relevant consideration in pure geometry (I also don't think it's relevant for the lore discussion you're having, since it's a discussion about the beginning of the cosmos, and it's not clear that our physical laws apply in that context). But fine - I agree that if you introduce some further appropriate constraints on how the spheres overlap, then you'll get a circle.

The last report is most certainly not fan made.
It combines eveything Morrowind said about the Dwemer in one comprehensive.

The word of god in this context is Bethesda saying this is what happened.
And the last report to Trebonius is just that.

Perhaps you keep reading over my summary on purpose.
'Dwemer for dummies'

But that's just it, it's not Bethesda. It's in the Fan Made section of the site and it has "Vekh's Teachings" and "Skeleton Man" in the report which are not in the game and are just obscure texts that are not canon. I will also be happy to point out any other texts consolidated into the Last Report if you like. So it isn't "Dwemer for Dummies", it more like "Made Up Dwemer Theory".

I'm pretty sure Todd has said it's not canon if it's not in-game (this was well before the novels). That's not even considering that the obscure texts themselves are given in-character, making their thruthiness just as questionable as the rest of the in-game texts (which can be colored and fallible, as was mentioned on multiple occasions).

so your only reason to refute established lore as being non lore is that it is not in game.
Nevermind that Kirk explained his writings, nevermind that Bethesda authorised him to speak about canon.. Your only argument is that if its not in game its not true.

Ill say 'pah' at you.

Remember sermon 0.

It was not in Morrowind, but sure explained a whole deal.

No, if your only argument is that, then I refute it on the grounds that your blinders do not allow you to see the obvious.

Lore is not just that wich is in game. Lore is to a very large extent that what the creators tell us it is, and to a smaller extent what we make it, and therefore sermon 0, and all those other things are canon. And Bethesda thinks so too, wich is the ultimate measure.

What Kirkbride wrote is not canon because I say so, it is because Bethesda says so. And they have, albeit silently.
They would never have allowed a previous employee to make such bold statements about the entirety of the elder scrolls without their blessing.

So the avatar of Akatosh only saved Tamriel so he himself could destroy it? Greedy isn't he?
If that is true, Martin getting all the glory for closing the gates instead of the the Champion of Cyrodiil makes that all the more annoying.

No, it's not my only argument that these texts weren't in game, it's a pretty convincing and conclusive reason but also because a guy that wrote a story and put it on a website many believe to be the official BGS lore site (which it isn't) does not make it canon or established lore in any way. If you want to prove me wrong, give me a single shred of evidence that it's canon. Bethesda's silence over his writings doesn't mean that they back his writings as lore.... It's basically akin to fan writings. There is nothing wrong with it. The only things that Kirkbride writes that is canon is what BGS pays him to write and then adds it into their games or into novels. Otherwise his writings are no more established lore or canon than if I wrote a nice little lore page (which I have on my spare time, it's the "Chronicling of the Ayleid Empire") but I don't go around posting it on websites and claiming it is established lore.

I have given you reasons you just will not accept them.
Wich is fine.

But you should also be aware (dirty trick coming through) that you are the minority.
You can refute lore as is not lore, that is your right, this is what elder scrolls is about.

You have the right to try as hard as you can to establish that canon is not.
But at some point I am afraid that the majority rules.
In this case being Bethesda authorizing and establishing Kirkbride's texts.
You even refute the Dwemer summary, while all of that is in game lore, fine.
Reinforced by the loremasters that involve themselves.

As I said, it is a dirty trick, but it is valid in the end.
You will have to concede that what you proclaim is a minority and a small voice.

You may be right, we just do not know.
But the sheer volume of things I can cite to back my argument up, the sheer number of loremasters that see things roughly as I do..

I just wish you would stop contradicting established lore on the basis it is not lore. It is. Beth wouldve stopped it if it wasnt.

You keep giving reasons but not evidence. Also you keep ignoring the fact that there are several things in the Last Report that are NOT in the game, trust me. Just because Kirkbride occasionally is hired to write lore for Bethesda does not mean everything he writes and puts on a website is fact. I don't see why you think that is. As for majority rules....Just because the majority believes something doesn't make it so. If everyone in the world believed that the sun revolved around the Earth doesn't make it so. The fact of the matter is that all the evidence you have given that "supports" your hypotheses is not canon or lore. If you can show me where Bethesda declared that all of Kirkbride's obscure texts are canon I will admit that I was wrong. However, Kirkbride is not a developer at Bethesda and hasn't been for nearly 10 years. If he was a developer at Bethesda I would be more inclined to believe the texts but even then I would need word from Bethesda that it is canon. Bethesda would not have stopped fan art (yes, this includes writings) that was on someones site. There are innumerable things that people write fan stories and no one cares because they aren't selling them.

But it is not some fan art.
It is the man who wrote the lore himself explaining what it means, in his own convoluted way.

Look we can sit here and argue on what is lore and what is not till the guar come home.
The plain fact is that my views are supported by what is considered canon,
and your views hinge on that it is not.

Would not be the first time in history the 'holders of truth"were wrong ( see what I did there with your Gallileo)
No, it would not.

But as things stand your stance is minimalist while mine has the support of what elders consider lore.

Since boring is wrong, Merari is right.

No matter how you argue, it doesn't make Kirkbride's writings any more canon than my writings. He didn't write the lore of TES, he has written lore for the TES but there are many others that write the lore for TES, including several that actually still work at BGS. Unless you get confirmation by BGS that his writings are canon or see his writings in the games (which the ones you showed were not.) then it isn't lore and can't be used in the interpretation of the lore.



Yes, since horribly outlandish, omnipresent and omnipotent beings are so much more exciting.... By saying beings can be anywhere at any time and at varying power and able to do anything isn't exciting, it's extremely boring because you know that they can at any time squash anyone and thus what is the point of struggling? Then the whole point for story and the TES is worthless and thus why have any stories or TES at all because you already know the outcome, everyone loses because the omnipresent beings are so powerful and unstoppable there is no point in resisting. That's boring and ridiculous. Thus is why I hate omnipresent beings that are all powerful, they ruin story and Kirkbride's writings about the universe being a wheel caused by the collision between Anu and Padomay, that would be weak and thin compared to them converging and thus the struggle between change and stasis is the cause of chaos which is the driving force of our universe (the real universe) and that of TES and is the reason that all things exist.

Which you will, seeing as Sleign is a mimic of Crimson Paladin, except with something of a troll twist. In fact, it makes me really miss Crimson Paladin himself, and I thought I'd never be one to say that.

Oh look, another person from the lore forums here to try to discredit me with their baseless "lore" that they think is canon because it is on the Imperial Library. Oh well, thus is why I don't even try to post there. If you don't have some sort of presence in the lore forums apparently you don't have any business talking about lore because you can't possibly know anything about lore if you don't post there.... I love how I am the one trolling when I'm the one that have taken the high road and never called someone out for not reading/interpreting something correctly until it was placed on me. Oh well, we will see who is right in November.

Oh look, I didn't talk about any lore in my post! Nice observation skills/trolling! "The high road", eh?

Well seeing as how you've been on these forums for 6 years now you'd think that you would learn to not flame people. Also, my post was an inference of your post. You clearly insulted me using the lore discussion as a focal point. Thus, you were insulting me because you believe I don't have the lore knowledge of Merari or you just insulted me due to the fact I pointed out that many of the Imperial Libraries' documents are not canonical.

Calm down guys. There is no reason to argue. You can debate each side and belief but why take it to arguing/namecalling? I think you both know there's no convincing the other until we all find out for real how Bethesda wants the lore to be written.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvpoR7knnI0&t=5m39s

:chaos: :chaos: :chaos: All the TES religious/ lore talk is a mute point , for all are but mere pawns in the Great Game of the TRUE GODS :chaos: :chaos: :chaos:

GLORY BE TO CHAOS!!

...death to the false emperor and his slaves...




Thought I'd throw that out there :sweat: