I've studied TES lore pretty in depth in my spare time which sometimes I have, sometimes I do not. I don't want to step on anyone's shoes here but i've come to the conclusion that within the TES world there is no such thing as gods. The Dwemer notion that the Daedra are just powerful beings sounds more accuare to me. Ask yourself what denotes a god? Power? Worshippers? Mentality? In that sense we can attribute a god complex to just about anything that motivates people to do what they do including money, war, hatred, love.

So it seems to me more so then ever that the gods are just percieved notions. The powers of the daedra are greatly exagirated. For example I don't believe Azura cursed the Chimer to turn their skin ashen. I think it was a biological effect resulting from the Dwemer machine. A genetic mutation if you will. If Azura was as powerful as she claims to be, wouldn't this petty but ambitious soul fullfil her desires much easier? Take the Nevarine prophecy. It's a croc. She simply waited for the right person (you) to fullfil her goal. Throw enough darts and eventually you'll hit the center type deal. And the Tribunal, if they were ever so popular would have they submited to the Empire? If Vivec could really flood all of Morrowind (something we have no evidence off) what would stop him from flooding a bit west and wiping out the entire Imperial race?

Every time you meet a Daedra for a quest they're like the little kid who says they can do a cart wheel but only when no one is looking and instead ask you to do something for them. So through popular belief, a bit of propaganda work they have elevated themselves to a position of "god hood" when in reality (TES reality) anyone can become a god. The boundaries between life and death become non existant with enough magic. You can destroy the body but you can not destroy the soul, only confuse it. Like wise that is what happens with the Daedra when they are banished as they discribe it.

Note: No i'm not some angsty athiest on the internet, I actually do follow a faith and creed but I thought this was an interesting topic to discuss.

Edit: Sorry, posted before it was moved

If you do follow a faith, then please go find its definition of god immediately so you have something to compare against other than misty notions of spiritual hit dice.

Meh. Skip the Atheist/Believer part. Nobody really cares.

Owh and yea, you're right. There are no gods. The Altmer don't believe in gods even, the gods to them are the Spirits of their ancestors. Though the points you mentioned have other reasons, but I'll leave that to others.

It's all relative.

Except if you're Dwemer. Then it's all nothing.

I'm not really as well-informed a lore buff as the people who frequent this forum, but your last line made me feel compelled to comment.

I'm actually the opposite of you. I am an "angsty" atheist irl... but I'm fairly sure that there are gods in the TES universe. I suspect you're right in that the Daedric Princes aren't all-seeing or whatever... but who said they were? They are still very powerful Daedra... much more powerful than you could ever hope to be.

The Divines are, by all accounts, as powerful as myths say, but they left this world in the Mythic Era. Who knows, maybe they're not gods in the form that those who follow the Abrahamic religions understand... maybe they are really just magically talented ancestors that took magic/Magnus with them when they left. Who knows? Yet, there's no denying that they've occasionally had a hand in events on Nirn, as in St. Alessia and the Amulet of Kings, the repeated appearances of Lorkhan, and that scene at the end of the Oblivion Main Quest. So, they may be what the Imperial Cult says they are, and they may not be... but there's no denying that they're there, and they're powerful.

That's how I understand it, anyway.

Well, we don't know that. If there's an alien godhead, then mabye there is an omniprescent omnipotent "god" being.

Those we call gods stand for something, a concept that plays a part in our lives. If an entity stands for something inconsequential, no one will know him.

They are gods because we came from the concepts, not the other way around.

Asked the great sage to one of his pupils:

"Do gods exist?"

"No, master, they are just notions."

"Do you have notions?"

"Yes, of course. Otherwise I --"

***

The above, however, is looking from our own perspective. I can understand why and how you may come to this conclusion, ImmortalBlood. The thing is, however, that your reasoning simply doesn't work in a fictional world like Nirn.


You just seem to have listed a number of Imperial gods there.

The thing about Nirn is that whether or not you make the distinction as in the bit of texted I quoted, it does not matter. They are real enough either way.

Let's define 'God' for starters.

Any takers?

You've got the right idea, but I think you missed the point a bit. You seem to be basing your assumptions on gameplay mechanics rather than actual lore. Your conclusion, however, amounts to the same thing. Almost.

Firstly, I find your argument from evidence a bit flawed. You question the truth of the Sermons when it talks about Vivec flooding Morrowind to destroy the Akaviri invaders, but in the same breath you suggest that Azura's curse was a "genetic mutation" that resulted from "the Dwemer machine". There's no evidence of anything like that, either. To your credit, the Anumidium may have had something to do with it.

"Genetic Mutation" is a bit inappropriate to use in this context, since genetic mutations, when favorable to the survival of a species, slowly gain precedence over other configurations over the course of several thousands of years. Seeing as the Aurbis has only existed for a couple of thousand years (in linear time), evolution as we know it could not have taken place. If you mean "genetic mutation" in the somewhat gooky pop-culture sense, in which someone rolls in toxic waste and somehow transforms into a twenty foot monster, you might be right in a sense... but this "mutation" was a divine transformation, because the Heart itself is a divine object.

There arehttp://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/nu-hatta.shtml. All et'Ada are gods, but not all gods are et'Ada. The et'Ada were created from the patterns of possibility that resulted from Anu and Padomay touching. These include Akatosh, Lorkhan, the Daedra and most of the Aedra. Nirn was envisioned by Lorkhan, who tricked, persuaded and coerced the other et'Ada into creating it. My point being, if gods did not exist, then Nirn would not exist.

The other "gods" - Tiber Septim, the Tribunal, Mannimarco et cetera - came later, and achieved their apotheosis by various means. We have reason to believe that they all became "divine". Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus emulated the Akatosh/Lorkhan pairing, and through tampering with the Numidium, became divine in their own right. Mannimarco ascended to become the Revenant Moon, which orbits Arkay and has definite effects on Nirn, allowing Necromancers to perform profane rituals without the laws of Arkay interfering. The Tribunal are perhaps the most obvious examples measureable godhood, since they exercised their power in public and played a large part in their followers' lives.

With regard to the Daedra sitting around waiting for the eventual intrepid adventurer to somehow "do their bidding" through pot luck... the Monkey Prophet would never approve. I don't know if you noticed, but Mehrunes Dagon was doing a helluva lot of cartwheels in the Temple District.

Your suggestion that gods are "perceived notions" is interesting and correct in a sense, since it known that faith has a lot of power in the Aurbis. However, I tend to think that the et'Ada and Earth Bones are natural principles rather than notions. Note, also, that the pantheon on the Nine Divines is a political construct engineered by Alessia. However, she incorporated aspects already existing spirits into the pantheon. She just altered them slightly to appeal to all her subjects.

It's useful to look at this in the Aldmer context. The Ehlnofex believed that they were spirits bound to the mortal plane by Lorkhan, and that the natural world is a hell of limitation. Nirn definitely limited them, but limitation is needed to define existence. In short, you're half right when you say that anyone can become a god. The truth of the matter is that everybody is a god, but that not everybody realises it.

For reference, I'm secular, although I wouldn't call myself "angsty". I have an agnostic approach to most things, and this kind of reflects in my views on lore.




Gold.

Sure, there are no gods. There's just powerful supernatural/metaphysical beings that are the precursors to mortals and are worshipped or feared by almost all cultures in Tamriel.

Oh wait...

There's an influential essay sometimes used in high school English classes called "How Many Children Had Lady Macbeth?" It was supposed to question the idea that Shakespeare made good characters, the dominant critical understanding at the time, as opposed to Shakespeare writing well on themes. But the question in the title is a good one. How many children had Lady Macbeth? There's absolutely no indication of how many children she had, so there is no answer to the question. And the way this relates, in my rambling fashion, to the question, is by the fact that fiction is not the real world, and any assertions, unless contradicted within the text, are true. Anything else not implicitly stated by the text is untrue or, more likely, just unknown and therefore unassertable. The fiction ends at the edge of the page.

I say all this in response to the idea that "oh, I don't believe she did that. Oh, that's not true, he didn't really flood all Morrowind." Because unless there's something that's says contrary or some reason to be sceptical, it really did happen.

I think it's easy to overanolyse everything in TES because we are all witnesses, but not participants in any "real" sense.

I mean, Divayth Fyr dosent seem to have any scruples about calling Sotha Sil a god, and yet they knew each other on very personal terms.

Sotha is equally scrupulous about his own divinity. Asks Fyr what it means to life longer then a god. Touches on what Dark Durzog mentioned.

I've always thought it was up to you to interpret. There are plenty of conflicting viewpoints from a lot of different religious sects, arguments for and against the divinity of the "gods," and so on that there's no one truth, and only what you choose to believe.

I can not do that for two reasons. It would be like digging a hole on the beach and trying to fill it with the ocean. And secondly I can not speak about real life religion on these forums. Issues tend to [censored] and the moderators frown upon it.



Well actually I seem to recall that the Dunmer believe Azura was all seeing. But that Dwemer tricked her.

About them being more powerful then I hope to be, but can you really say that? Look how many mortals have attained "god-hood".

No denying they are there, I just do not think they are as strong as they prop themseves up to be. This stems from two main points.

1: These are just characters created by humans and because humans have a limited perspective so do the "gods" in TES.

2: There are many situations that if Daedra or Aedra were as powerful as they say they are then they would change certain things in their favor, something which they do not. They are constantly being just as manipulated by mortals as they manipulate mortals. Kind of like stepping with your foot on a bunch of steel spheres. You can make them roll across the floor and move them, but at the same time they have the potential to make you slip and fall, and as you move them, they move you.



I have listed no imperial gods. I see now that you thought i was refering to some of the 9 but I was honestly just considering aspects in random.




God in our world? I can not.

Gods in TES? Whatever someone is willing to bow down too.



Not really basing it off of game mechanics. Doing quests as part of the game aren't a game mechanic limitation such as dremora and the soul gem soul trap issue.

There is no evidence of genetic mutation yes, but it is possible to consider. And because Azura does not for whatever reason excercise such a power in much more important situations I am left to believe she isn't as powerful as she thinks she is. After all a mortal turned god uses her as a gagged doll on several occassions.

Genetic mutations don't have to be beneficial to be kept, they just can't be harmful. So in a way they can be positive, neutral or negative. Only the negative die out.

Whatever the case is it seems some "gods" are made rather then born that way. Not saying they are not powerful, just not THAT powerful and certainly not ALL powerful.




But that is my point exactly. If you measure a god simply by power then god-hood is relative. Money can be a god for example. The gods are anything the people of Tamriel want them to be. Even nightmares are gods to some. In a sense fear is their god just as love or lust or ambition is for others.



There is a certain writer of TES lore that tends to write about the events in TES through the lense of a "doubting-Thomas". I really like his perspective.

I think we'll all soon fall victim to the slow death of a thousand unnecessary definitions. It usually does, descend into some ugly mass of grey nothingness, otherwise known as objectivity.

Well, no, now you're playing with the word and making it mean anything. Outside of poetical language, and within the context of this discussion, the definition of a god exclusively refers to beings, not merely emotions or objects or things. You were right about one thing; "The gods are anything the people of Tamriel want them to be." It's an abstract cultural concept, not a concrete term with a criteria that can be checked off. Which makes the title for this topic puzzling and unanswerable.

I actually refered directly to aspects of Daedra and Aedra in there. Vermina, Mara, Molgal Bal and Dagon.

This is what they worship, but the critical distinction is that a god is a personification of a concept, not just the concept itself.

u sound like mankarcameron to me Kill Him!

You should pay more attention to Mankar. He's right about what he says.

The use of proper English wouldn't hurt you either.

You're right, but those reasons you've stated are faulty...

Even if you don't follow that Azura cursed them, there are other more likely reasons than mutation, which is just boring...

There's a significant amount of evidence to back up the Nerevarine Prophecies, however, Azura didn't have full control over it. You might say that Azura could initiate the prophecy, but it was up to Vivec and the 'Incarnate' as to whether or not it would come true (afterall, your not the first Nerevarine)...

Vivec had his own reasons for 'submitting'. As for evidence, not only does Carlovac Townway note that he did it (who is foremost a historian), but also its a document of Imperial making that says that Vivec did it in the first place (meaning that it's not subject to Dunmeri biases)...

"It has been theorized that gods do in fact gain strength from such things as worship through praise, sacrifice and deed. It may even be theorized that the number of worshippers a given Deity has may reflect on His overall position among the other Gods."http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/gods_worship.shtml

So not only do they have their reasons for giving people tasks, but furthermore there are checks and balances that keep the Daedra from exercising great amounts of influence on Nirn (most notably the Lunar Lattice and Towers). They can't just act directly on Nirn on a whim; Hircine needed the Bloodmoon, Dagon needed the fall of the White-Gold tower and the opening of Gates, Azura was only present as a specter in Morrowind perhaps showing the limit of her power of presence there...
Also, Daedric banishment as well as mortal death are both more complicated than that...

The book AstionM directed you to is one of your best resources on this topic...

I agree, "gods" are considered gods by their worshippers, although others may not acknowledge them as gods. For example, the Temple does not consider the Nine to be gods, although most of Cyrodiil does. Likewise, the Ashlanders consider the Tribunal to be "false" gods. And then there are figures such as Mannimarco, and of course the Daedra princes.