Not sure where you gathered anything about those being better or worse games because of skills or perks.

Skills have been doing nothing in recent fallout games. They had no general impact on your character.

So Bethesda axed them and streamlined them into skills to make characters more unique.

Or we can keep these useless skills for the sake of keeping them, despite just being maxed out and the next one invested into next.

Such compelling. Wow.

Now you get to remember when you don't need to invest points in useless skills to unlock questionable perks.

Instead every perk is useful and will unlock new crafting options or increased damage or accuracy with your weapon of choice.

The good ole days of a Bethesda fallout game.

But skills were useless in Skyrim besides being gate-locks to perks. If all skills are going to do is limit what perks you can buy and when, why NOT streamline it and use attributes to do the same thing? Then you don't have the horrible grind for non-combat skills like you did in Skyrim. Instead, Fallout stays like Fallout in the sense that you just earn XP and unlock perks as you want them, according to what your SPECIAL distribution will allow.

You're such an obsolete lil' gran'pa. Nice cane by the way. Things change, get on with times, streamlining happens for... reasons. Skills did naught previously, so they had to leave. They couldn't be improved.

Ya' dig?

Lol. Never thought I'd see those words...

I am actually so bummed out right now from the fallout info we have been given. Worse news all year.

No need for change when a system works perfectly fine. If a newbie player can't be bothered to learn the system, well they probably shouldn't play the game.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Skill

Maybe you should actually do your research because I'm sure as hell that skills actually did matter in both Fallout 3 and New Vegas. For instance when I raised my medicine healing items were more effective, when I raised my guns my aim was more steady with guns when using crosshairs and firing, when I raise my sneak I was more stealthy, I can go on and on but the end result is this.

If you're claiming that skills do nothing you really need to do a fact check or I'm instantly going to believe that when you play 3 or New Vegas you just console command your skills to 100. Skills improved the game by a lot and were for the better, not the worst.


Absolutely not they weren't. Skills in skyrim were very useful, for instance as your sneak got higher it became easier to be stealthy, pickpocket increased your chance at not getting caught, alchemy made your potions stronger, enchantment made enchantments stronger. Even so gating perks behind a required skill level isn't bad, in fact it makes the perks feel more rewarding then just "Oh level up, unlock that and boom done"

Honestly I think you guys don't play legit, skills are a fantastic idea and should be embraced and not looked down because people can't role-play in, well, a [censored] role-playing game.

Hahahahaha.

People think like this in 2015?

Cider, perks will do that now.

Which part of those 5 words aren't you getting? Instead of leveling guns and 8 other skills because every character was a master of all trades, you'll specialize and put points into perks that do these things.

They clearly didn't improve the game much hence the removal. A multimillion dollar company shares my sentiments. The same one who does this for a living.

I'll take the word of the expert over you, sorry.

From the look of it, ranked perks may replace skills. I saw evidence of Gun Nut, Science, and Hacker, each with apparent ranks.

There's no point in arguing with him, all ive seen him do for the past week is argue against anyone who dared mention that any previous bethesda or fallout game had any better features what so ever and even then he doesnt even try to have a reasonable argument, just flamebaits and doesnt acknowledge any of your legitimate points and just tries to find the smallest flaw in your argument. In short, he's had the behaviour of a common troll from what i've witnessed.

Right now, I do not see much of a problem with this. As long as I can turn a 10 mm pistol into a two hander/rifle and wear combat armor.

Words of wisdom.

You're getting the exact same result as you would with skills, they were just streamlined.

If it makes you feel any better just consider skills to have 4 or 20 or whatever we amount of ranks instead of 100.

If you look past the removal, this is a great system. Less isn't always bad.

Yes but perks solely doing that now is just blatant stupidity, skills with perks as a bonus is a better system as it makes the perks, again, VASTLY MORE REWARDING TO GET. Video game companies aren't always "experts" many games do a lot of bad moves and we see that throughout numerous genres and companies. Hell look at steam greenlight and you'll see all kinds of developers that make bad moves, same with triple A games.

If they leave out skills they will do the biggest bad move they could've done and it won't end well, people will complain because spoiler alert, PEOPLE LOVE USING SKILLS TO ROLE-PLAY.

I also saw local leader.

I wonder how many we'll be able to select each time we level. if it's only one, we could be leveling for a looooong time.

I do not see any immediate problem with having skills represented in ranks we gain through perks (if that is what we get).

That makes this system even worse, it would just end up with the game feeling so utterly slow and unrewarding which is a huge mistake.

You seem to think just because perks act as skills, they won't have amazing rewarding perks as we do now.

What gives you that impression? In the interview when asked what his favorite fallout 4 perk was, Todd refused to comment.

Is it a stretch to believe there are still amazing perks? Or do you seriously think it's all just shoot better and craft better? You can still role play, just replace the word perk with skills.

Someone who doesn't invest in conventional gun perks is going to be the same guy who didn't invest in conventional gun skills.

Why is the above sentence so hard to understand?

And that level is still there, it's just streamlined into skills now. Gun skill affected weapon accuracy and damage. Gun perk will affect weapon accuracy and damage.

Why do you need a game with both?

The straws are held tightly in fists in this thread.

The problem is the removal of a full layer - and one could argue the most important one - of finetuned progressive character customization. Stats-Skills-Perks.... and that's not to mention that there aren't even traits anymore (once again gotten fashionablly rid of). With the loss of this layer, the character possibilities and all the potential that comes with it goes way down no matter what the perks do.

Listen, gonna level with you...

Can it possibly work? Yes, of course. Any system, with enough time, thought and effort, can work.

Will it work? No. I hope I'm wrong, but the answer is no. The last time Bethesda did something like this, it was Skyrim, and I've already explained the effect this had. Perk trees made characters feel same-y, Perks providing damage and other such effects (defense) slowed down actual perk progression, etc etc. Bethesda has given us no such reason to trust that this move was done for the sake of efficiency. They've given us every example and reason to believe this is streamlining, and no, you will NOT see perks doing the job that skills once did.

Oblivion to Skyrim did not see Skyrim flawlessly adopting the job of skills and attributes via perks. Instead, things like the Luck and Speed attributes were axed completely (or at best case you can argue Luck became a "perk," but a perk that absolutely neccesitated a specific race be chosen, meaning you either had "the luck perk" or you did not, with no varying degrees of luck between), Willpower saw a strange, sloppy transition where it became an enchantment, skills became "20% cooler" perks when simply not having those perks and instead treating skills as the system to make your stats "20% cooler" would've been more efficient (the same damage variance would've existed, the same character progression would've existed, but the 20% cooler perks would've not disrupted the other perks which functioned far more like perks), and the entire thing was a giant mess.

FO3 was Bethesda's first Fallout.

FO:NV said a fantastic example about what Fallout should look like, and what RPGs in general are about.

Skyrim was a fantastic example of streamlined gaming in today's day and age.

Now we have FO4. Everyone anxiously awaited this to see if FO4 would resemble FO3, FO:NV or Skyrim. We have been given no reason to believe this is anything but Skyrim. This resembles Skyrim. This is exactly how they handled Skyrim.

The system will not be smooth, the skills will not be accounted for. I promise you now: Speech as a skill is basically dead, and lockpicking is gonna be pretty funky (if it exists). That's all there is to this, sadly...

Nothing about it was hard to follow but that doesn't mean we can't criticize a bad idea when we see one and let me tell you, this is a bad idea. Perks should be bonuses, our characters shouldn't be limited to a small amount of perks but instead we should be treated to numerous skills we can take that enhance our abilities, just like the previous fallout games.

You can shout and cry all you want that "skills were useless" but as someone who played the games legit without any exploits or glitches or anything to fast-level skills I can assure you, they are in fact NOT useless and other people can testify to this.

I played the game the same way.

They did nothing that a perk can't do.

They increased damage and accuracy. You maxed out the ones you were interested in and never thought about it again.

Skills added nothing l that a perk won't do better.

You can cry and shout all you want that skills were meaningful, but the guys making the game disagree, and they've been doing this for decades.

To clarify: you maxed out guns and never bothered with the skill ever again. You never refined your skill with them.

The gun skill did absolutely nothing when it hit 100. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. In other words, useless.

Now if we get a perk tree for guns, you can specialize in rifles, or pistols, or shotguns or whatever. It's no longer a blanket term for anything that doesn't shoot a laser. Could you have both? Yes, or you can make a perk that has 4 ranks that does the same thing that gun skill did, but in larger leaps.

Player.setguns 100 is not playing legit. If you did play legit you would understand that skills are important yet here you stand, saying they were useless in 3 and New Vegas and how do you back this up? You don't, nothing to prove your stance whereas I can easily go to sites that show the game's data and find out how they improve the game, I can go open up the geck for New Vegas and tell you all the values that the skills effect on the player.

I already posted an article that proves my point, if you actually bothered to do your homework and not make baseless accusations maybe you'd learn how the game actually works.

Medicine skill in a game that literally showered you with healing items (and food in New Vegas) Yah it made a big difference, in that maybe you only hit the stim hotkey key twice instead of three times to get back to full health.

Survival became a bloated make items skill that was kind of useless in a game that literally showered you with bullets and guns and other weapons and energy packs (seriously on hard I usually end up with several THOUSAND rounds of several ammo's by the end of some play-through

Leveling up skills with int 9 became a way to quickly max out your character thanks in part to the literal glut of skill books and magazines in game.

Repair in a game where if you see it you loot it and shove it all together.

Barter? meh by level 10 I'm dumping ammo into crafting stations, and breaking down and making 9mm over and over again just to get the bumps from crafting that junk. and if i'm not careful with what mod I installed I can find myself literally tossing out healing/ammo/guns/armor just to keep my weight under 400 (use a mod because I cant be arsed to move inventory around all the fracking time between followers and just Give them heals armor and ammo/weapons)

Look im not trying to say Skills were totaly useless. but for the most part Max out one weapon and sneak and lock-pick and science and maybee speach and repair or repair then speach (which you can do annoyingly quickly with skill 9) and then fill up first because your going to need to shoot your way out of trouble and the rest as you needed.

If they took away the "pick your own skills each level" and did more of a "you want a gun slinging Tech head then take the flowing Special stats"(Agi perception luck int) that is fine with me because honestly that was what I did way back with D&D, I could not start a Thief and then decide 5 levels later oh I want to add in all of this nifty spell casting because hey I maxed out my Thief skills!

ok now i Sound like a grumpy old man like the other grumpy old man whos [censored]ing about them taking away skills lol

Your argument is based on assuming I used a console command.

Yea, no point in arguing with logic like that. You can cry and stamp your feet all you want, but skills were not meaningful character choices, sorry to burst that bubble.

Your stance is skills are useful because they increased damage.

Perks can and will do the same thing.

There goes your laughably bad stance.

If you took the time to form a argument with legs, you might get somewhere. Reading would help also but that's probably asking a lot.

The only thing your article(a wiki you mean) proved was that skills affected weapon damage. No one is arguing that.

I'm arguing that that one thing isn't enough reason to keep them in the game when you can remove them and add perks that do exactly the same thing. 100 gun skill will do the same damage as 4/4 gun perk ranks.

But yea, somehow that means I used console commands despite not owning a computer powerful enough to play the game and have fun.

Again, skills provided a more gradual and balanced progression. In Skyrim, you'd hit points where 20% extra damage was far too much and temporarily made you a god. By contrast, you might get a dry spell where you didn't have enough progress in the skill to take the next 20%, meaning your damage was significantly and painfully behind. Skills providing this bonus gradually provides a smooth transition without any ugly bumps like this. Your damage will remain appropriate.

And one of the best features of the last two Fallouts was combining skill and SPECIAL stats with perks, AKA, only letting some of the best perks be taken if you had a certain level of a skill or SPECIAL stat. This is now gone. Likewise, speech checks often checked your skill. Again, checking a number 1-100 is not as fluid and flawless as checking a rank or a SPECIAL stat that you cannot increase.

Skills are nothing but a variable used by the system to help exhibit a certain amount of control over how your character is built. Without skills, that's less direct and exact control over your character. It's that simple. If skills become perks, then either limitless perks means everything can be mastered, or limited perks means there's now ridiculous demand for perks, to the point where you CAN break a character by not taking damage upgrades. Bethesda considers building non-viable characters a taboo in their game, and thus they'd never allow for this.

As did FO3: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_3_skills

On the other hand, it had a metric tonnage of perks: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_3_perks

I can't see them trimming those down.