Thank you so much.

I can max guns by like level 6 with enough intelligence and book hunting. Even earlier probably.

This is not a small increase, before I have even come across most weapons of the wasteland, I can handle it like a professional.

If these are instead perks tied to level, let's say around legs 15 I hit the final rank of the gun perk.

I'm now a man who has traveled much of the wasteland, probably seen most conventional fire arms and can handle them very well.

If we just divide skills to 4 ranks at 25 points each, nothing has changed

If you took your button of caps lock and stopped trying to act like "checkmating" people in a debate is a thing, maybe you could understand what I'm trying to say.

I'm trying to say that with the transition of Oblivion to FO3 to Skyrim, Bethesda has streamlined their games and made them simpler. When they did so, they did not bother to account for every attribute and keep it in game (example, Speed does not exist as a stat in Skyrim at all and was removed completely, Willpower got a funky transition to an enchantment that comes with ups and downs). We are now transitioning from Skyrim to Fallout 4, and they are following suit with what they did in Skyrim. Thus my point is: should you expect this transition from perks+skills to perks only to go smoothly? No, you shouldn't because the last time Bethesda did such a transition, it didn't go smoothly and was done pretty sloppy. You can expect more of the same now.

You should also be aware that Bethesda didn't create the system used in FO3. It's following the examples of FO1&2 to a large degree. And if you'd like to discuss the flaws of FO3's system? I'd be more than happy to. Fallout 3 is only being named because it's still a huge step above Skyrim and - unfortunately - will likely be above FO4 aswell.

Perhaps it was poorly worded cause my intention wasn't to imply their idiots, it was merely to state that Bethesda has not shown an interest in flawless transitions to new systems. The last time they did this, plenty of features disappeared or got streamlined dramatically. They didn't bother to make it work and instead just axed a lot of stuff or provided sloppy solutions.

the problem with the 300 point skill cap thing was that again for some skills it was hard to explain why you would want them over 100 to start with,

Seems to me the biggest schizm in this thread is between min/maxers and RPG-players, with the former advocating for percentage based perks and the latter for skills plus unique perks.

If your argument against change is because Bethesda didn't handle it well in the past, this is going to go nowhere.

Skills haven't been handled well in 3 or NV, and the company says they learned a lot from skyrim and have had at least 4 years to work on the game.

Now you can call that a lie but this is no longer a debate because now you have faith and that has no place in a debate since you'll believe it without proof of the contrary.

They could have very easily improved upon it instead of gutting it altogether. Many members have created in-depth suggestions before that would have largely improved upon the system. Removing things seems to be their way though.

Oh I understand that spreading the effects too widely is bad as well. They could have just limited skill points gained upon leveling or making tagged skills the only skills that could be mastered.

As you say though, it's of no use to even discuss it anymore.

I hate to keep bringing this up, but they are selling you the game. You think they're going to tell you otherwise? Don't kid yourself.

Many developers have been caught lying about games they're selling. Take the whole over 200 endings in Fallout 3 that Todd Howard was selling prior to release.

I really hope not. I didn't notice it when I saw the demo, I guess I have to rewatch it. But to do that is butchering what Fallout is... I reserve judgement untill I see it in play. Even more so how is Special going to function without skills if that's the case?

This is worrisome.

Personally, I find it easier to RP in games like Fallout 3/New Vegas BECAUSE of the SPECIAL alone. I have no issue with the skills, but they seem more like how I play the game, not how I RP.

I'm admitting to that much.

You however have done nothing to explain how this transition is supposed to go smoothly and with as little problems as possible. The perk pool just grew ten-fold because of all the skill work it's taking on, skill requirements can no longer be a thing, perk measurements are far less exact, gradual changes like scope sway cannot exist, debuffs cannot exist (a debuff to temporarily remove that you've taken a perk...? Unlikely), etc etc etc.

Both of us are working off faith here. The difference being, mine is at least an educated guess based off Bethesda's track record. Yours is the pure faith.

Because Bethesda is doing it. They do this for living. They've never done any mistakes before, or if they have, they clearly aren't doing one now.

http://i.imgur.com/BT84X.png

False. I have proof they learned from skyrim.

Skyrims system wasn't awful, but it wasn't perfect because skills and perks don't go well if you're trying to make them both important.

The next game made by Bethesda is fallout, they claim to have learned more, and axed skills.

Seemingly the thing they learned was that skills weren't very interesting and clashes with a perk system.

Your educated guess is that it's bad because it used to be bad?

Right, very logical and enlightened.

You have done nothing but claim it's bad because it cheapens choice despite evidence to the contrary, or skyrim.

I can point to the gameplay video where we see ranked perks taking the place of skills, and requiring x rank to craft this, like you'd need x skill rank to craft this in NV.

That's a system that works. It makes sense. You can draw parallels from one game to the other.

You also claim requirements can't be a thing. Why not? 3 ranks on science and 3 in energy weapons to take cyborg.

Gun sway with this super advanced weapon stops when you have 3 ranks in gun skill.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/smiles/todd_bucket.gif

No skills make no sense, I could imagine dropping specials like attributes in skyrim, however not skills.

In the video from stream the guy was snipping a raider and there was a button choice to hold you breath for accuracy,just food for thought.

word has it skills weren't shown in the demo, but will be included closer to release.

(some guy mentioned it in the youtube comments, so take that for what it's worth)

Demon then the solution for you is very simple. Never EVER Buy a game from Bethesda again starting now.

here is a reality check. Games like ever other entertainment we buy come from people who put work into there OWN creation. Ironically it doe not mater all all in the end how we want something to work out its up to the creative team to come out with a product that they can come out with. If that creative team Cannot make something work for whatever reason then that is the end of it.

Now were they lying about what they wanted to do way back when they first announced Fallout 3? I don't think so for a couple of reasons. One was poor communications (They had basically meant that including minor story lines and the main quest) and in part because they had such a long publicity campaign that kept growing on them resulted in some quest lines being truncated or not even fully developed, never mind that they never mentioned some things (getting the girls away from that one [censored], republic of Dave, that oddball who wanted to bed that nuka cola fan girl, putting an end a cannibal family township, the whole German town-Little lamplight and the protecting the teenagers thing (which was bugged because it was possible to save them and then get them wiped out just by leveling up),) but did a couple of others (Agatha song, Rivet city although THAT had a weird trigger that sometimes did not work and sometimes did, apparently one of the conditions was if that guy committed suicide which was possible without you ever seeing him. (that and did creating the Survival guide ever get a mention?)

(in all fairness some of the major decisions like wiping out the NCRCF also was apparently never given all its possible endings)

Basically I remember Todd making a comment that putting out any kind of announcement basically meant that the stuff you planned to do suddenly you could not do because you and a lot of your key staff ending up having to leave the office to fly off to various things to promote your game and that next time they would not even start the publicity train until they were basically done.

There may be skills, may not. 5 months before the release and only about 20 minutes of gameplay makes me think there's a lot we haven't seen and not much reason to get bent out of shape about it.
Even if they go the skyrim route, the 400 hours or so I have I. The game tells me that it wouldn't be the worst way to go.

Perks were gate-locks to perks. I couldn't just pick the 100 Archery Skill Perk if that was the one I wanted. I had to go through a perk tree to get at it. That railroaded character builds and made them samey, rather than letting them be part of a unique build.

Deciding which perks you want should be dynamic. You should pick the perk you want, not the perk you want after picking five others that you had no interest in.

Removing skills isn't "trimming the fat". Todd is cutting the bacon right off the still living pig and trying to sell off the crippled animal as the Best Idea Ever. The attributes/skills/abilities system is used by the vast majority of RPGs because it works, and works very, very well. Bethesda is pretty much legendary for its terrible character system. You're the one who is apparently ignorant of this history and what "most" actually do. There was no reason for Bethesda to reinvent the previous system. It wasn't anything original and the attributes/skills/perks themselves could have used some work, but the system was solid and prevented Bethesda from yet another character system hatched job in the style of the Elder Scrolls.

As someone has already pointed this out before me: There is a barter skill bobblehead in the inventory of the Player during the "Fallout 4 - Crafting System Gameplay" video segment. Also there are 20 places on the shelf in total for bobbleheads 7 for SPECIAL 13 for skills.

Thanks for pointing that out, I'm hoping this might be the first Bethesda game where they don't give with one hand and take with the other.

Maybe they're still refining it, or aren't ready to show it off yet hmmm? They didn't show any perks but have talked about them.

Maybe there won't really be skills, but all perks will have their ranking: http://i.imgur.com/5IoVgzv.png

I honestly would enjoy it since your character's skills would be based on these.