SKILLS HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH PERK TREES.

I think it is obvious looking at the crafting workbench screenshot and thinking back to how Skyrim was set up. We are going to probably get a perk tree related to each SPECIAL attribute, and a point to spend on buying perks just like in Skyrim when we level up. Our SPECIAL attributes determine how high up each perk tree we can go.

EDIT: This could actually be a massive BONUS to role-playing unique characters, because it will be IMPOSSIBLE to become a jack-of-trades anymore. Didn't invest in Intelligence? Can't max out the Science perks. Can't craft as many Energy weapons. Won't ever be as good with Energy weapons as a character who maxed Intelligence. Works for me.

No, they don't do the same thing. This is a lie that Todd Howard's been selling people on since Skyrim, as he made a terrible attempt to create perks that do the same job as skills.

Skills exist for a reason. In FO3 or New Vegas, I can be perfectly competent with guns without taking a single guns-related perk. The perks are just that: perks. They improve my ability with guns in one way that's by no means required. Great example is And Stay Back! Knockdown effect on shotguns is amazing, but can I competently use guns without this? Absolutely. Perhaps I have no interest in shotguns at all, making that perk useless to me....but the guns skill is not.

Simply changing it from "the skill makes you aim better with guns and do slightly more damage" to "this perk gives you extra damage and aim" is messy because if you for example have a limitation on the amount of perks you can take, then damage-increasing perks practically become a requirement and provide a pseudo-choice, diminishing the amount of actual perks you have to choose from. I want the ability perks like And Stay Back to be the prime directional focus of perks, not "here, more stats." It's bitterly ironic that all the people who parrot Todd's warped philosophy will often insult stats, but what he's truly doing is removing skills as a stat and then turning perks into a stat. If you truly hate stats but like things like perks, then even in such a case you must view skills as a "neccesary evil" of sorts.

And you're only specialized if there's a cap. Skyrim didn't have a perk cap by the end of development. You get to be superman.

Now you're argument is based on Todd Howard lying, instead of formulating something coherent.

It's clear you just want to be upset, so please, continue to be upset. There's clearly no changing your mind when you'll stoop to that.

Edit: for fun, I'll entertain this.

Perks in NV and 3 were perks in NV and 3. I can have 100 skill in guns, and then in 3 or 4 levels become a master of energy weapons without a single perk.

Now, I have to mold a character to use EW. If I don't get science perks, I can't make cool weapons. If I don't get damage perks, I'll be out paced by higher level enemies.

Tl;dr: skills were useless since you maxed them all out anyway. Perks allow use to specialize more, and you can't just max something and become a master with it. Streamlining. Learn the definition of it.

Lockpick is AgilityI believe.

Well, maybe I might try it. Just wait for it to go on sale or something. Maybe wait for Christmas.

This is interesting...

How did skills work in previous titles? I mean really work. Usually they worked on a "per ten" basis. That is, you usually (excepting combat skills and lockpick and science, which are per 25) had to put in about ten points for it to actually have any affect on the game, or at least the dialog choices and crafting. It's possible that they've replaced the skills with perks that have ten levels, which would actually act similar to the previous game since a lot of the effect was only every ten skill levels anyway.

Not that I particularly like this idea, but it's possible that's what's going on here.

I hope it's not the Skyrim system. It was a pain to increase crafting, speech, and every none combat skill besides sneak.

if that is the case they had best let us pick 3 perks per level up. but then they'd have to water down perks.

Where I come from, a debate involves arguments and counter-arguments. The post I'm quoting here provides neither.

If you wish to claim that perks can functionally do everything skills can do without any effects to the system taking place, then explain how. This simply isn't the case. In Skyrim, skills were "removed" in that the effects of Skills are abysmal. I forget the exact numbers, but I think a single skill maxed to 100 provided 7% or 17% more damage (don't quote me on that) whereas a perk provided 20% more damage per rank, with 5 ranks total. This meant that skills were effectively experience, nothing more. Perks adding damage were absolutely 100% required. Nobody who plays skyrim skips those things, because your damage without those upgrades will eventually fall very flat. This meant that many of your level ups effectively provided you with no perk at all.

If I level up in New Vegas, I can give myself enough skill points to up my guns damage by ~10%, then take a perk to give a specific gun-type a knockdown effect, or my fists a paralyze effect. If I level up once in Skyrim? I must first spend perks on damage, then eventually I can get the paralyze or the knockdown. Trying to get the knockdown first is both impossible (due to perk trees, which are also a terrible design because they demand very similar perk choices amongst several characters, leading them all to be same-y) and ill-advised, because the damage is the most valuable asset. Imagine playing FO3 or New Vegas without getting any damage increases from skills.

THAT is tedious. That's extra level ups required to do the EXACT same thing. It's not more efficient, it's less.

And that's weapons, that's not passives. Case and point: how do you handle speech with no skills? The old speech system can check your character's speech ability on a 1-100 scale. Perks can never hope to do this, the scale is too small. This means that, once again, gaining speech skill is eating into your perk choices and slowing character development, and not only that, the speech improvements are much simpler. It ends up being a one to three scale or something, which is much less exact. You cannot create more exact variance across characters, as two characters that are both "kinda charismatic" would both be at rank 1 instead of one of them having 25 speech while the other boasts 40.

And again, without a perk cap? It's all tedious. It just means a level up is less valuable because there's more worthless "20% cooler" perks like in Skyrim to eat your perks up practically by requirement.

Maybe they are doing perks/skills similar to Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

I can't imagine they would take out skills, that literally makes no sense what-so-ever. SPECIALs? Yea I can see that, wouldn't be happy but I could still see that but the skills? Literally doesn't make a bit of sense, hopefully it was just a "we didn't implement them yet in the pip-boy" or they were hidden like someone said.

Each skill had their own formula as to how they worked. The formla factor in your skill level and your Special that effects that skill.

If where you come from arguments start with calling someone a liar, those arguments must be terrible. And occur in a sandbox.

But on topic; of course you won't skip damage perks if you want to do damage. Claiming that they were too good is a matter of opinion and difficulty played on though.

You can hit 1 rank and open up the tree like I did for marksmen since I only used it as a fallback option; my character became more specialized. I wasn't an archer with 100 skill and thus did as much damage as the most dedicated archer. I opened a fight with it in hopes of paralyzing.

But yea, skills did nothing in past games except let you do everything with no perk investments.

Now perks are what define what you do and how you do it. They do the same thing skills did, but better in terms of a character because now I can't box as well as a legion legate, while also being able to shoot as well as a ranger and patch up wounds better than any doctor in the world.

In 4 I can punch that legate in the face, but I'll do no damage unless I've dedicated levels on that tree, and I'll never 1 shot kill a super mutant unless I've made my character a sniper.

And you handle speech with no skills by either requiring a certain amount of charisma, or 3/4 ranks of the speech perk to pass a difficulty check that will occur about 75% into the game, or a quest tuned around doing it at a level that the third rank is unlocked.

Problem solved by someone with 0 experience making games by the use of logic. Astounding!

But yea, this thread is nothing but a no more character build circle jerk, when only having perks goes the opposite direction of that. I mean, having 7 intelligence made me a master of multiple disciplines but I guess that's depth right?

Alas, that's what has seemed to have happened. The characterbuild possibilities and all the potential thereof just got trimmed down quite drastically.

While I'm not a big fan if skills are definitely out and the perks are meant to be the replacement I think I can live with that system. I think some are right that perks could be a limiting factor on how you play. Meaning that a very charismatic character isn't going to be the best at melee too. It may be a combat difficulty zero-sum game in character specialization. I personally liked being super man who had everything maxed, but I know that isn't what some people wanted. If there is a perk cap then you have to make choices carefully and make trade-offs on if you want combat to be easier or to play the game in some other way.

Yes, but I'm trying to boil it down to the actualy in-game effects they had, which tended to go on a by-ten basis.

It looks like stats will be used in place of skills, and that leveling will allow you to raise stats.

In the video, the character started off with pretty low stats ... only 28 points out of a potential of 70. That gives the player plenty of room for improvement if he gains a special point every other level or something.

Except in Skyrim, you still had skills. You were required to increase them to a certain point to enable you to buy perks on level up. That WAS tedious, especially for skills like Crafting and Speech. You are right.

However, if it works like I think it will work in Fallout 4, the only requirements to buy a perk in a perk tree are going to be your Attribute points in SPECIAL. So what you can and can't buy in perks are determined right at the start of the game. No grinding for skill points and saving up perk points like Skyrim.

I respect that perks are NOT the same as stats. But as I pointed out above, I don't think it will be tedious in FO4. And hopefully Bethesda does have a perk cap (probably tied to a level cap).

I really think this is a positive step for creating unique characters that don't all end up the same at the end of the game. If they don't f-up perk trees, there shouldn't be any dump stats in SPECIAL, and your choices in SPECIAL will have a real impact on what you can do in the game - permanently. I am cautiously optimistic. The removal of skills DOES scare me - I've been playing Fallout since the first, but I'm willing to see how well this works.

I disagree. I think if Bethesda puts a perk cap in-place the character build possibilities just shot through the roof compared to FO3 and NV, for the reasons stated above. Intelligence will no longer seem like a necessity for farming skill points. Your initial SPECIAL attributes will MEAN something. You'll be limited on each character you create, and will have to specialize. (Imagine that - specialize with a system called SPECIAL!)

Yeah because rebalancing skills and skill point gain so you can't max out so many skills would be really tough. You'd have to change numbers and values and things. Easier to just cut them entirely.

I get what you mean. you're talking about the incraments in which the actions were improved by increasing the skills. I personally always thought they improved by 5s. I wouldn't be completely upset if they found a way to balance the system with perks rather than skills. but that does leave perks feeling rather uninteresting as well as removes the pleasure of adding points to my skills.

Yeah because that's an argument. Yeah because streamlining is often a good thing, especially when done by people who do this for a living. Yeah because wanting skills for the sake of skills isn't at all an arbitrary reason, despite them doing nothing in past games.

In case it went over your head, they were removed for a reason. Not because it's easier to just cut them.

Bethesda thought they didn't add much to character customization, and they didn't. It was just another thing tacked on that a new system can do better.

It seems all my worst fears of the franchise are coming true...

If you watch in the part where Todd is making furniture and puts up the bobblehead rack one of the bobbleheads is for Barter. So skills are still in the game in some form.

You're right.

https://youtu.be/GgL_dH_HPGw?t=25m22s

Hard to say what affect that will have in the game, though. It's right around 25:22, where the link takes you.

But for the wrong reason.