Damn that's true too, mostly for bows (again) because they're so unnaturally short-ranged.

I see the difference is more of a Single player RPG player vs an MMO player. in single player it doesn't matter its just you vs the AI. in an MMO others are relying on you for their gaming experience as well. If a healer or tank is subpar the group as a whole will suffer. Even with ESO not relying on the trinity as much as previous games it is still present, and they will be expect to have some sense of role and skill with in it.

No damage meters, no damage logs, no armor ratings please. That's all I see on fleet in SWTOR. LFG EV MUST KNOW TACTS MUST HAVE LVL 63 GEAR blah blah blah blah blah blah.

And you just drove home why its *needed*. The reason why people mentioned gear level, is that folks would queue up in seriously sub-par gear and be a liability to the group. Skill can only carry you so far before not upgrading your gear for several levels starts to hurt you.

Just look how fast those health bars goes up or down, that will tell you how damage one is doing. We still don't need silly numbers floating on the screen, combat logs, etc

If one wants numbers, there is add-ons. Also, numbers in the default UI will lead more jerks in the game then if there are no DPS meters, combat logs in the default.

This whole thread should burn in oblivion. One of the most unique and wonderful thing about ESO is the lack of stupid an nonsens numbers,an now this thread feels just old and unnecesary.

That's kind of sad. The most unique and wonderful thing about ESO is the lack of numbers during combat?

On topic: I disagree, numbers do not good combat make. If mods can do it, great, but let's get as far away from a standard mmorpg as possible.

I agree

I understand people have strong feelings about this, but damn can we keep the hate to a minimum? Calling peoples' opinions stupid is not a good way to change someone's opinion.

I agree there should be an option for a combat log. An option, meaning anyone can opt out.

I'm not that great with builds. I pick skills/spells that look good on paper, but have no idea how they'll actually play out until I mess around with them and see if they work well in combination with one another. Right now my only indication of damage is when some health disappears from the enemy's bar. I have no idea how much, and I have no idea if using one skill over another skill is more worth my time. Additionally, some of the skills/spells have a % chance to do something else. I'd like to see for myself via a combat log if spending points for that skill makes sense. If I could see how many times on average it's showing up, I can keep it if it seems to be doing well or drop it for something else.

Also, let's not forget that this is a brand new game. How in the world are they testing spells, attacks, racial skills, etc, without knowing if they're working as intended? The spell description may say "does 37 damage", but how do we or they even know if it's working properly? We can't see if it's doing 37 damage.

When WoW was first released tons of skills didn't work like the descriptions said they would and the devs had to fix them. How did they know? Because the community told them so- we could see the real numbers in our combat logs.

GNS theory would paint this as a conflict between 'gamist' and 'simulationist' preferences.

I tend to side on the simulationist side more often than not. I'm also biased by the opinion that having the hard numbers flattens out the learning curve too much, and accelerates the arms-race between the min-maxers and devs to untenable levels leading to unsustainable rates of content-churn. Obfuscation does not prevent anything, but it does slow it down - which is enough for me.

So I'm glad the numbers are kept under the hood, and I would like it to remain that way. I am not hopeful, though: the opposition is powerful, and ZOS seems prone to buckling under pressure.

I didnt say the most. I said one of the most.And there are a lot unique things in ESO.

Devs can look at the server logs and graphs to know that info. That is fine and all. Combat logs in the game is just a bad idea -- have out put to a file or use add - on to understand them. I like the min UI idea to much to have combat logs or DPS meters. Also, those two items just leads to jerks to the game. Less we to deal them (Jerks, DPS and combat logs), the better.

That is my fear as well, but I agree with you about the arms race and the devs. Arms racing is just bad for the game.

Agreed. MMO players, by and large, are stat monkeys. We live and breathe numbers and spend countless hours poring over logs.

Removing this experience means we'll spend less time playing your game, talking about your game and researching your game. That's not a good design decision.

Devs can look at the server logs, but they don't have the time to look at 500k beta testers' logs. They're looking at a very small, very random sample. Add in the fact that any class can pick up virtually any skill and you're looking at thousands of possible combinations of skills/spells/attacks that can possibly bug out when one is put with another. There's no way to completely test every combination in every scenario, against every enemy. And we won't know if they're bugged because we can't see the logs on OUR end.

It's our responsibility to report any issues we have, not just in beta but after the game goes live. We can't do that if we don't have access to the data to check for ourselves that everything is working as intended.

Yep this.

Its very naive and dangerous for the games longevity to just expect the Dev to catch everything. The players are the ones who invest there time and effort into their characters, so we are the best ones to point out when something is wrong.

Good point, just dump that info external file and have a program go over it. I still think having combat logs and DPS part of the default UI is not good for the game either.

On this you are 100% correct but giving them extra ammunition in the way of damage numbers and DPS meters will only add to the Dbaggery of those people.

I'm all for some kind of visual cue that you are hitting your opponent or even a colour indicator for the level of damage you are doing.

Say when you hit and do a small amount of damage you reticule flashes green and when you do a large amount of damage it flashes red.

This solves a few issues, it shows you that you hit your target and also gives you an approximate indicator of the damage you are doing. It stops the creation of DPS meters that will inevitably lead to a Gear Score Dbag refusing to let someone into his group.

Admittedly this idea has literally only come to me whilst I was writing this and certainly needs more thinking about before it is viable but it might be a reasonable compromise, perhaps?

This , if it was a single player game with limited abilities its different, this is an MMO. there are a lot more factors involved, and i'll stick to what i have been saying since day 1, unlike single player games, the community feedbackis what makes an MMO successful, not the developer alone.And with no logs there is no way to give feedback regarding combat

I think combat logs would be fine, but I don't need numbers to tell me im making a difference.

I should probably add that even in the heat of mass PvP I didn't really have any issues when determining whether i'd hit another player with an arrow.

Still, a visual/audio cue that you've hit is still a top idea.

Keep your eye on your enemy vs. Keep your eye on the dmg meter...

Wtf does it matter if it's native or a Modder does it? The modders normally do things better anyway.

5 pages of debate and that is really hit of it. I vote "eye on your enemy"

if it is in default UI, they that will to jerk-ism faster and never ending arms race vs the dev's team. That is not good for the game. If it is an add-on, that will slow down somewhat. Still no ingame DPS meters or combat logs! Use external programs for that data review.