lol are u emo ? whats wrong with being able to see if ur actually hitting ur target or missing ur target have u played in the pvp in cyrodil its fun but it gets hard to see if ur actually doing anything the siege weapons are the worst especially with the line of site sometimes u cant tell if ur actually hitting anything hit markers would be a nice touch...... its a video game if u feel alienated seek help lol

See, this is the closeminded perspective I am talking about.

We're not talking about number crunching. We're not talking about min-max. It's a matter of three things:

1. Establishing you've actually done damage.

In PVP, as the OP has stated again and again, it's impossible to tell what damage you have done to a target and what damage other people have done to that same target. It's impossible to tell if it's your ranged attack doing damage or another factor.

2. Ensuring skills are working as intended.

Without seeing the numbers in a combat log, we have absolutely no way of knowing if skills are actually operating the way they should. I've seen it happen a hundred times in other MMO's- bugs happen, and the only way to be sure is to see the combat log and compare it to the tool tip for the skill. Devs don't have the time to track this stuff on their own- they need our input because there are literally hundreds of skill combinations and there's no way to test them all.

3. Creating the best build for you

Lots of people are not really good at picking skills. What works for my playstyle the best? Well, I can guess based on the tooltip, or I can get some skills, go out and kill some stuff, and compare the damage I'm doing with (x) combo of skills vs. (y) combo of skills. Now I know for sure which ones do what I want them to do without guesswork.

It's really simple. And I'll reiterate, with the game set up the way it is, what you're scared of happening is very, very improbable. With every class being influenced by their racial skills, the weapon they use, the armor they wear, and all the different guild skills and pvp skills available, there will not be a cookie cutter build. There are hundreds of combinations.

People will still try to make cookie cutter builds. There will still be downloadable UI that will give them the numbers. Adding an option in the game will not stop people from trying to do it. All that does is make it less frustrating for those of us who choose to use it from having to re-download the UI every time there's a patch.

Ok..Im going to reply to this & then put you on my ignore list, because posts like this really are not worth seeing.

1) The HP indicator is a great way to see if the opponent takes damage.

2) With many people hitting the target, and the HP indicator doesn't show much, then pay attention to what you are doing...its called immersion. Know your range & aim at your target. I mean..there is a locking system thats holding your hand after all.

3) I've played PVP in Cyrodil. It doesn't change my opinion.

4) Hit indicators are a crap load different to floating damage gauges. For one, it won't cause an elitist trend within the game.

Now, unless you have any other childish taunts you would like to throw about, I'll leave you here.

Welcome to my ignore list.

You said it. Who to kick.... instead of who to help get it right. You just made the point of why not to have numbers.

Brezer you have obviously never raided before. Yes, you need to KICK those who can't for whatever reason follow instructions and wipe the group over and over. They are "beyond" help and won't ever get it right unless they know that the threat is there, so yes KICK UM... Until they learn. Think of it as motivational content.

Hows is it closed minded, I just said I did this for 12 yrs, crunching numbers, I have been where you are wanting this to go and its not a good place, if anyone is closed minded its you. If you really need mods and numbers go back to wow. Dont clutter up this game with that trash.

I don't want everyone to see everyone else's numbers. I wouldn't mind seeing my own numbers though, but more because it would let me know I'm actually doing something in Cyrodiil.

But it's already here and it's still closed beta. The problem is since it's through add ons it could be very difficult to use them with frequent patching constantly breaking them. Not that people who are dead-set against numbers would mind that.

I was probaly raiding before you even knew what raiding was but the point is it takes people to get the numbers and if you treat people like they are disposable it ruins the community, there are plenty of games that prove my point about that.

Use the Combat log for what it is, a tool... If you are ashamed of your numbers and/or mess up constantly I can see why this log might not be your cup O tea... But in any case thats all it is, another tool to produce a better outcome no matter the feelings that might be hurt in the process...

I would doubt that Brezer, as I grew up programming a Vic 20... Do you even know what that is I wonder? LOL... And spent 8 years on Wow raiding, so I know what Im talking about. Kick the no shows, and poor dps and bad tanks, for the betterment of the raid.... Im not talking about guildys here... Its not personal, strictly business about getting the job done....

Ah but messing up in another person's eyes can be caused by genuine mistakes, FPS drops and whatnot. The simple fact of the matter is, I did a couple of dungeons during Beta, and everyone was working their proverbial's off to get through it, a couple of mistakes were made by people, should we have kicked them for it? No. To me, that is just ridiculous overreaction no better than petulant children.

As I stated kick the ones that wipe the raid continually, or are being carried by the group. If you have never been in a well coded dungeon where everything everyone does is needed to be performed at near perfect levels, then you have no idea why its important to do what I suggest doing. It seems cold hearted and it has happened to me before. I didn't like it either, but I knew why- I was under gears and couldn't pull my own dps load. Mistakes happen yes JD, but theres a difference in a mistake and a poor or under geared player. And, the only way to know this info at times is by having a combat log to look at....