Perhaps if Fallout 3 was drawn up like Operation Flashpoint, then I would tend to agree with you, but the way that Fallout 3 is currently run, there is little challenge either as a shooter.

It's irrelevant, and it's not that it's difficult or challenging, it's that it's quite obnoxious. Missing 9/10 times is pointless, missing here and there and not doing much damage is fine though.

No game should take 10+ minutes to kill something because you wanted to do a character not based in fighting. Games are supposed to be fun, that's not fun. Making it hard to kill something is one thing, making it near impossible to hit is obnoxious.

No game should take 10+ minutes to kill something because you wanted to do a character not based in fighting. Games are supposed to be fun, that's not fun. Making it hard to kill something is one thing, making it near impossible to hit is obnoxious.

This was a little riddiculous about morrowind - at the start of the game a little slug could kill you, cos the only weapon you had was a dagger that you weren't able to hit anything with unless you had short blade as your major skill

ok, I agree about the plants in arroyo (I usually either switch to easy or save/load as crazy:), but that's basically the only quest to suffer from that ... once you get to klamath, you can have your first firearm & a few map squares later in Den you get all you need to shoot anyone's head off..

but it's certainly true.. today's RPGs are made to be as little frustrating as possible and as "console ready" as possible.. which means simplifying and some MORE symplifying.. that's why fallout became a beautiful hybrid between FPS and RPG... It's a great game, damn right it is, and even better - it will attract a LOT of FPS players while still keeping old fallout fans, who will definitely want a new sequel.. it's a win win, isn't it? :ph34r:

I think that's where we're going to have to agree to disagree.

If I make a character that has little relevant skills in combat - I don't expect to be able to tackle every obstacle with brute force. The "plant" sidequest probably isn't the best example of level design - there's not really any other option for completing that quest at that point of the game (and it's scarcely worth going back and doing it later.) But if you haven't made the sort of character that can easily dispatch those cannibal plants, then you're not necessarily going to need the reward as much, either. (As a combat-heavy character is going to burn through medical supplies much quicker than a character played in such a way to avoid confrontation as much as possible.)

I don't see the problem with a game making me take 10 minutes to kill something (and obviously that's hyperbole - I don't think I've ever spent that much time on that particular combat,) if I have made a character that completely svcks at fighting with the weapons available. If I want the combat to be easier - there's a very simple solution: make a character that's better at fighting.

If combat never gets more difficult than a minor distraction, then I don't see the purpose of even having character stats and skills, or being able to make a character that isn't a walking death-dealer (something that, admittedly, you're going to end up with by the end of all Fallout games.) But that's just my preference. Like I said, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I wouldn't say it's an inherent flaw in the game design, though. Simply a subjective matter of preference.

So you want to kill stuff quick, but don't want your character to be good at it?

I'd like to run a minute mile, but I cant run.

One thing which I always found hard to suspend my disbelief was when it came to a tribal being able to tag firearms as a skill, since if my memory serves me correctly, there were no firearms in Arroyo, and that Sulik was the exception to the rule, only that he had been living in Klamath, and became adapted to Wastelander ways.

Making it impossible to hit when by all means your character shouldn't isn't obnoxious - it's sensible. Allowing anyone to do anything regardless of how they've made their character just demeans everything done to make that character.

I've wondered about from time to time as well (I'd usually try to pick stats that would make sense for the character, and then had trouble figuring out why a Tribal would have Science, Energy Weapons, and the like as Tags.)

But, on the other hand - Tag skills are meant to represent a natural ability in those skills; and not necessarily prior knowledge. A Tribal with Science Tagged could simply mean they have a knack for logical thinking (or also that Tribals aren't as "de-evolved" as you'd think. Just because you find it easier to get by with primitive equipment doesn't mean you wouldn't necessarily be en-educated. Arroyo was settled by the Vault Dweller, after all - he could have brought much-needed knowledge with him to be passed down orally.) A Tribal with Small Arms training could simply be a natural marksman, or have excellent hand-eye coordination.

Ever play very hard mode?

Even on the hardest setting, I find that bashing all the keys, generally nets you a victory. On the other hand, the easiest setting in Fallout 2 was fairly hard.

If you miss so much, you are doing something wrong. Maybe you have made a gunslinger with low Perception or maybe you start shooting from too far away. If your chance to hit is less than 50%, save that bullet. In any case early on a shot should only be an opener in a fight as there isn't enough ammo. And frankly, it would be wasted on easier enemies.




If your character isn't based on fighting, why do you insist on getting into it? F2 can be completed with fighting only one character - Horrigan. Not to say that it is easy to do, but it is possible.
And if you start a character without fighting skills in TES games you'll be hosed, too. Even more actually, because you have to fight every step in TES and almost all quests require you to kill something, while level-scaling makes the enemies tougher and tougher.

I am not a Fallout grognard by any means, I only played F2 a few years ago, but I didn't have any problems and quickly (in the Den, IIRC) switched to the hardest difficulty. Granted, I played the Baldur's Gate saga before that and knew to save before fights, importance of character building, etc.

I played a character with Small Frame, Gifted, tagged Small Guns, Speech and Picklock (?), with decent Perception and high Agility and Intelligence. Early on I also put points in melee, and later tagged Big Guns too with that "extra Tag" perk, as well as raised Science and Medicine and a little Stealth, while reading all skill-raising books/journals I could get. Anyway, good armor is your first priority. IIRC, I appropriated Sulik's leather jacket as soon as I freed him and upgraded at every opportunity.

What difficulty where you playing on?

You don't even have to fight Horrigan yourself. Turrets and Sgt. Granite can kill him.

for me very hard and I still don't find much challange in FO3.

I'm at the turning point in FO2, just arrived at NCR with a good build up of money, if I go on a stealing spree here I will be set for the rest of the game. Its a lot more satisfying due to the fact I have had to work at it to get this far. I think FO2 got the challange level right, at lest there are challanges outside of combat something sorely lacking in FO3

Well I just completely wasted 2 days worth of gaming with F2, I usually only get to play for about an hour or hour 1/2 and for the past 2 days I've been at that stupid Toxic Cave completely unable to pregress inside because the Geckos keep killing me.

I built my character just like F1's, a small guns fighter, imagine my surprise when there are none anywhere in sight. I did just about everything I could in Arroyo (Save for sharpening my spear because that conversation never came up and now that I've gone to Klamath I'd have to restart the game to try and get it, pfft no big loss here as my melee skill is horrible) and I did the scropion quest for Torr in Klamath. I've been trying to help find Smiley but these areas are just not built for a gunslinger, my damn hth skill is 65 and I still miss 6 out of 10 attacks against those stupid geckos and they are too many to fight with virtually no healing items, no money, no weapons save that completely useless spear I can't even wield.

2 days of doing absolutely nothing except dying/reloading in the caves and getting radiated. Yup, I'm bored. :shrug:

You can find a free pipe rifle in Klamath.

Yeah, the Smiley quest is rather hard to complete early on. Just like Fallout 3 - if you find you're having too much trouble in an area, then the best thing to do is just come back later. It can be done at an early level, but it helps to have a companion with you at that point (if you can manage to get Sulik with you, that helps.) Beyond that, an old trick for Geckos and pretty much any melee combatant is that if you keep far enough away from them, they'll spend too many of their AP on their turn to be able to attack. I have made it through that quest just by running away from the Geckos. You'll be in combat mode pretty much the whole time, but it can work. You also have to make sure to tell Smiley and anyone with you to stick close to you, otherwise they'll tend to go off on combat and get themselves killed.

But yeah - without giving away spoilers, there's more to that area than just finding Smiley - and you're probably too low a level for it at that point anyway. So often the best bet is to come back later - Smiley's not going anywhere, after all.

I actually liked that the item progression was a bit more stately in Fallout 2. You will shortly end up with plenty of firearms, though. All those options to help raise your melee and unarmed skills early on are there for a purpose.

Anyway - those games aren't for everyone. Some of us find the fact that you tend to "miss" a bunch of attacks when you have low skills to be more realistic; and actually one of it's better qualities. Other people are going to feel differently.

Thanks Ausir, I'll keep an eye out as I scout the town!

nu_clear_day: I don't dislike the game because I'm dying or it's hard, just frustrated because the options seem to be quite limited for those of us who haven't tagged or invested many skill points in unarmed early on. I don't mind having just a Mauser for a while but at least it'll be a weapon I can use and not miss 80% of the time like I do with unarmed. Just want a fighting chance is all. I have tried the trick of outrunning them after a single strike, I figured this out with scorpions and ants in the Temple of Trials, but sadly geckos have more AP it seems and they catch up to me enough to hit. <_<

The only other place I have to move to is the Den; but given how crap I am right now in the first town, I imagine I'll be uber-owned by the quests in the Den. Crap, I run away every time cannibals, outcasts and geckos show up as special encounters because I know I can't even take down 1 of them! The Den will probably have me killed as I step through the entrance by putting me to fight some kind of mutant super chicken :facepalm:

Thanks for the advise! :hehe:

I tried looking for San Francisco and all I find: Dozens of cannibal camps, fisherman random encounters, more tribal outcasts, and the occasional slaver raiding party.

Could you please tell me where in Mirelurks name is san Francisco on the Fallout 2 map. It save me a whole lot of time. Vault city is not giving any easy quests and Lynette is a complete [censored]. Just please tell me, anything, as to how the hell do I find San francisco in a jiffy.

It's pretty much at the south west corner of the map. I wouldn't recommend it though, especially on your first play through as that is more or less cheating.

You might want to try the tutorial for the first two locations:
http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout2.html

The Den's actually a good place to get some XP, actually. And it's the first place you'll start finding some much-needed firepower, as well. The nice thing I liked about the old Fallouts is that most town have a lot of stuff for you to do, without even having to leave the settlement. Den's no exception.

I usually make the same characters in that game, too - not having any Unarmed or Melee skills, and starting with Small Arms tagged. Don't worry, judging from where you're at - the "stuck with beating people over the head with a knife I barely know how to use" segment of the game is almost over.

Honestly, the Den stuff isn't that hard in my experience. It's the next steps where you'll be making frequent use of the quicksave and quickload buttons. Pretty much anywhere you go next is going to be quite an epic trek. I still have... "fond" memories of the trek out from the Den to the next areas in the game...

You can also pick up a 10mm pistol in the rat caves. With Sulik king rat isn't so tough to beat.

Thanks for the tip Andaius, I haven't seen the rat caves yet. In fact my whole point to go get Smiley from the Toxic Caves was so that I could secure Sulik's release as I can't afford to clear his debt with my meager earnings. I moved onto the Den on nu_clear_day's advise, been working for Becky and that wacko Lara, trying to level up a bit more. Nonetheless, I'll keep an eye out to see how to get those caves on my map and I'll start hunting for the trusty old 10mm Colt. :gun:

Got the Pipe Rifle and some very limited ammo for it, I'm unsure if I'll try to do that fight Lara asked me to go tell Metzenger about. I don't think my guy would hold up very well in a FUBAR firefight between 2 gangs right now with a single shot weapon like pipe rifle...I'll see. So far my experience with the pipe rifle and multiple enemy engagements looks something like this:

Oh well, it still beats unarmed!! :hehe:

iirc in the opening cinematic the elder has a revolver on her table.