I hope that everything becomes easier at higher levels, but there should be places (and not the occasional place, there should be quite a few) that pose a challenge even to lvl 50 characters. And rats, wolves and stuff should not be easy to defeat even at level 1, so they pose a challenge up to maybe lvl 5 or so. I hope the game is really hard and intimidating to lower level characters but once you reach a high level you don't feel as awed or afraid of wondering around, but there are still places you can go to challenge yourself. IMO these enemies shouldn't be leveled, because above level 30 or so your combat skills will be 100 and if the creatures keep getting tougher then it will become ridiculously hard at high levels, which is the opposite of realistic. And if you accidentally run into one of these high level ruins or caves while your level 3 - bad luck, just like Morrowind, only harder

All TES games have an extreme re playability value, but this level of hardness will make the game so fun and entertaining all the way through for every character I make (I usually get bored and create a new one at level 10 or so..)

The discussion is pointless and only serves to divide and alienate the community. I wanted to know what the OP's thoughts were on this.



Just because you circumvent the intended path doesn't make the dungeon any less linear.

That's more of a problem of dungeon design than it is levitation don't you think? Again, if we assume that levitation is a high level, high magicka spell then why shouldn't the characters that have achieved it (or found a bottle of it) not be able to use it to skip random, unimportant fights. If Bethesda designs the dungeons with the assumption that levitation will be a factor (like in Morrowind) then it's not even a problem.

With Oblivion I would agree that it's a problem, but only because of the way the ayleid ruins/forts/caves are designed (with the assumption that nothing like levitate or even super-jumping exists). They could design the dungeons with impossible to get to platforms and such.

As to the original topic...nonsense. Not wanting level scaling, and wanting interesting and unique artifacts means I want to play a demigod with no challenge? Nonsense. It means I want a believable world. Balancing it is up to Bethesda.

You should be able to strategise and combine effects to create powerful and useful effects, but when you can beat anyone easily at level 2 because of an exploit or something, it just gets stupid. Balance and challenge is important. It is what all RPGs intend to achieve. Failure to do so is not good design, I doubt it's ever even intentional. Being super powerful can be great - once you have put in all the effort and strategy and levelling to reach it. I can not understand the other perspective on this. It doesn't seem to make sense at all. Just put the difficulty slider down or use a mod if you don't want to play the game right.Or play a game that isn't an RPG. RPGs are for progressive skill gaining to get closer to perfection, not easy beatemup gameplay.

EDIT: I don't see any problem with using levitation or jumping to get to another passage in a dungeon. It's not like there's ever anything extraordinarily difficult in them anyway.

I want a balanced game

I svck

Well, okay - I was using "linear" in the sense of "following the devs 'intended' playthrough more closely". My experience of the dungeon risks becoming less... streamlined, if that's a better word. You know what I meant, you nitpicker you.

Thing is, the presence or absence of spells like Levitation and Jump dictates what dungeon designs can or can't be. The "challenge" camp wants these gone so that dungeons are more believable, and to them only a linear dungeon is believable, for some reason. :yawn:

Whatever one's camp, the last TES couldn't have done it more wrong, and Bethesda will have to work on this. Through normal progression your character not only wasn't rewarded, he/she felt like getting worse. At the same time through exploits things would become trivial. That's pretty much taking the bad sides of both camps and mixing them.

About the question.. the camp I'm in.. I'd say definitely not the camp of balance. I want magic to feel special, and constraints don't help in that. TES had that to an extreme, and I loved that. Part of the reasons people complained so much about the loss of levitation IMO, was that levitation is pretty much the symbol of freedom, breaking the constraints of the world. Magic is supposed to do that and putting arbitrary limits to it for the sake of balance doesn't help. Same with things like mounted combat.. what if they can't make it totally balanced? The real thing isn't much balanced either.

At the same time, I have no problem with challenge. The first two Gothics still are the games that first come to my mind when it comes to my favorite power curve and on both of them you started out a total wimp and ended up extremely powerful. The fights weren't trivial even at the end (unless you were a mage hehe), but they were rewarding, knowing that you now take on without problem 5-10 of the guys that used to kill you in one hit. So.. not fan of too much pursuit of balance, but what is most important for me is, whatever they do, they do it right.

I am challenge camp and I disagree with that. I just want all the elements to be fair, balanced and not be super easy to exploit for ultimate power.

"Devs intended playthrough" is where you lose me. Why can't they design epic dungeons with multiple paths to completion? Isn't that preferable to short/medium linear dungeons? Imagine Daggerfall's dungeons with the words "devs intended playthrough"...and I would certainly say Daggerfall's dungeons were 10,000 times more challenging than anything Oblivion had to offer. It just sounds to me like you've been conditioned by Oblivion's linear dungeon design.




Apparently, but to me a linear dungeon is less believable. Take the Mournhold Sewer dungeon in Morrowind. Massive. Multiple paths to completion, multiple sections of the dungeon that you're led to with various quests etc. Levitation at no point makes the dungeon easier, it only opens up the opportunity to discover otherwise impossible to reach areas with interesting items and/or loot. Or just an interesting view.

Well... I if level scaling and all the other stuff is done somewhat like this I won't mind it... mostly because I want there to be a difference between 100 and 0 level characters fights... and I don't want the mainquest nor guild quests being level scaled... random quests I won't mind, and some sidequests may contain small amounts... I also want (nearly all) npcs to be nonerespawning, none scaled, and named, that way you can't live destroying the same dungeon every level... and once I've killed everyone and everything in a dungeon I want to be able to call that place home... I also want a script that will stop guards respawning once 90% of their town lies dead... and a script witch will send peasents hoping to clear off a few depts and legions after you once you've taken down entire towns... I want peasents to force you to leave their town if you've commited enough crimes... Finally if kids can't die I want 'em to dissapear shortly after their parents lie dead...

But why should magic feel more special and more powerful than stealth or combat? The whole point of the games is that they are 3 different playstyles with the same level of challenge, difficulty and reward. If magic was the best and most powerful option, what would be the point of playing a stealth or combat character? Magic is NOT supposed to be more special. It is supposed to be one of 3 equal paths.

There was that one place in the Mournhold dungeon, a big cavern, and in the middle was this huge rock formation, and you had to use levitate to get to the top, and I think somewhere up there was a piece of Adamantium Armor. That's one of the reasons I miss levitation. Those little hidden spots.

I was actually hoping to discuss peoples views of possible, practical ways to satisfy both styles of playing - I realize everyone does both to some degree.

I mean - take a game like WOW - that actually manages to divide the challenge-levels in different parts very effectively, without level-scaling. But of course WOW is considerably bigger than any single-player game, and it accomplishes the division by having quite narrow little "paths" from one area to the next, which I imagine TES-players would be unhappy with...

People have mentioned a "difficulty slider" - but again it is probably a thing that might be harder to implement for devs than people realize, because the particulars of "difficulty changes" wouldn't necessarily satisfy people.
The Oblivion Gates were a very natural-feeling way of telling people "You are now entering a mean place that might kill you" and of keeping the tough critters away from players who are just going to leyawiin for a nice drink and a chat about smelly khajiits.

So, what sort of tools do you think Beth will use this time ? Particularly steep mountains around dangerous places ?
NPCs litterally warning you about certain areas?

How about this? Make it challenging to become a super powerful character.

Agree... I liked levitation...

Magic just doesn't seem like magic when it's restricted by what you can or can't do without it. Balance kills it.

They're fairly equal for combat, just magic has more utility to it.

I would like it to be more of a challenge to get rich - I always felt that was too easy. But then I tend to play as a thief or packrat so it's my own fault if I manically collect and sell loot :happy:

I like to be "Lol, DEMIGOD", but "I want a challenge" to get there.

But that's NOT THE POINT OF AN RPG.

I seriously do NOT understand this. It's like people who like characters like Goku in Dragon Ball because he's amazing and the most powerful EVAR and he can do like everything instantly and he has no weakness and bla bla bla (I haven't watched DBZ but from what I hear this is what it's like) I mean without challenge and conflict, there is no purpose in any sort of media except slapstick random comedy. What's the point if there are no restrictions? Why not give the player a big button that says "Kill everyone in the immediate vicinity" and also give them the ability to fly forever, so long as they choose magic?

I don't play TES for adrenalin either, challenge while necessary can be kept to bosses who can be scaled, but the rest of the world is my to do what I wish with In depths combat simulations are better left for the games that supposed to be centered on combat, TES was always about other things for me, I'll go even further and say that complex combat situations that arise when I'm just traveling or going around "picking flowers" to make some potions annoy me a great deal - I'm enjoying the scenery and my role playing and have no desire to have to turn in to ninja just to beat that random monster that for some reason requires one hell of an effort to get right of.
I don't enjoy it when "have to" apply any combat strategy and jump around in circles with every rat, and no, not even if it's only every second or third rat.
The challenge should be kept to the places where you deliberately go to be challenged, and know that something would happen, so you have to be fully prepared, and in the mood for it.
P.S. And I want levitation back!

Make it challenging for lower/mid levels of the game just like it was in morrowind. Make it so you can actually progress in your skills and have it be clear where the "WOH WATCH OUT" challenges lie to the player (such as a big main quest boss or side boss, some forbidden area that's "Demon-Souls-Satisfyingly-Hard", etc).

But make it so you can be really powerful, too. Have it be WoW like in progression... the "end game rare" challenges are a distant goal for low level players, as ordinary town life and "calmer wilderness" are a challenge in of itself, not to mention low level faction and MQ challenges. Then as the player levels, slowly those challenges get phazed out and the player becomes a "demigod" of sorts. However, those "forbidden" high level challeges that presented themselves to the player earlier on? Make those known, enticing, and challenging for the player, and make people recognize the players strength.

It's not to difficult of a diffuculty curve to pull off. The important thing is that Bethesda NEEDS to not force anything on the player, as that would be completely cutting the strengths of an open world game. Make the harder "end game" challenges known to the player as he levels up and gets closer to being able to confront such challenges. Stuff like towns, normal people, bandits, wilderness wildlife etc would be super low level in compairison to the player now. If the player desires more challenge instead of desireing to "rule over" the lower level areas with power, then they could pursue these distant places in search for the ultimate challenge.

If at any point a player feels like it's too easy? Simple, start over with a completely different character...

That's my point though. You can do so much with combat. You can do so much with stealth. But with magic you can do pretty much EVERYTHING. And easily, too. And I don't care how "special" it makes some people feel, that's not how to make a good RPG.

As is stated at the beginning of the topic, that's the opinion of your camp, no offence :icecream: .