No.. that wont work..
Because 1) I cannot turn of the active quest log. (xbox.) I can put it on an open quest without markers, like collecting your roots.

But that doesnt help because 2) NPC's do not give directions in Oblivion, so if you dont know where something is, youre screwed.

Some folk do grasp the simple intuitiveness behind it, and then complain because Oblivion failed in every respect compared to Morrowind.

nah, directions from npcs instead of a compass was one of the things that made the game so so much better than oblivion. You know, actually having to explore instead of blindly following a quest marker to the exact location - if nothing else, it was this that really ruined oblivion for me.

Hyperbole much?

Actually they do give directions, there about as vague as in morrowind though.



If people claim to grasp the simple intuitiveness behind it, and then complain that Oblivion failed in every respect compared to Morrowind, then they should probably put some more points into their grasping skill.

I think that In Morrowind the equiptment was better in the sense that you could equip seperate gauntlets, a shirt and pants, and belt with your armor, and that there were pauldrons.

Oblivion had good things, Morrowind had good things, Daggerfall had good things. Add the good things together = perfect game.

In Morrowind, I simply follow the directions. It was only one time, I was frustrated. And that wasn't dwemer puzzle box which took hours to find. It was something about finger shaped rocks but I can say in retrospect, it was because of limited view distance.

When I see someone complaining about Morrowind directions being vague, I used to get confused. Because they were most of the time more than enough and always very detailed.

Then I watched a Let's Play.

I noticed the player was clicking the dialog for the job, quest, order...

"Go to Urshilaku camp.."

Now, that is vague and can be seen in Oblivion too. If player doesn't click on "Ursilaku Camp" for extra information, maybe a play-style difference, if they like exploring and finding places on their own, but then they can't complain about directions being vague.

"The camp is due north from Maar Gan, but high ridges lie in the way. Follow Foyada Bani-Dad, a deep ravine just north of Maar Gan, northwest to the sea. A shipwreck at the seamouth of the ravine is a landmark. Swim east around the headland. Pass east through the ruins of Assurnabitashpi Shrine. Urshilaku Camp lies east of the ruins, inland in a low hollow."

Because this can't be called vague.

This wouldn't work in Oblivion though with the lack of unique places and landmarks.

I had big problems with Morrowind directions. I still do, and it's one of the reasons I play it less than I would want to. Whenever I get a quest outside of town I groan inwards and avoid the quest for as long as I can. And even if do find the directions easy enough, the trip there is so long. That means that by the time I've found the place - depending on whether I've been confused and gone the wrong way, or just that the way out there was long in itself - I tend to have used up a lot of my healing and mana potions before I've even started the quest due to enemies I've met on my way over there. Meaning I might have to do a mark and recall to some town to stock up on supplies. If I can afford them, and if I find a store that has them. Then it's a hit and miss if I'm even able to win over the enemies in the dungeon at alll. THAT is what makes Morrowind - though awesome game that it is - so cumbersome and tiresome for me to play. And that is why I don't want to see a system like that in Skyrim. (I do agree, though, that the hand-holding in Oblivion was a bit too much, there should be a balance between MW and OB).

There is only one direction in Morrowind I found annoyingly vague. It was for the Mehrunes razor quest.
"The Alas tomb, near Molag Mar."
That one drove me nuts.

Found it purely by accident a few playthroughs later.

Other than that one, I never had any problem finding anything. The unique landscape, the landmarks and the excellent directions made it easy and fun. (There was one Khajit who said 'west' instead of 'east', but since those where the directions leading from a small island in the middle of nowhere, it wasnt really that hard to circle the island and find the tomb.)
I dont really understand why people would say the directions are so vague.

I've never understood this lack of unique places and landmarks, Oblivion is cramped up with different places, people usually complain about Oblivion being overcrowded with dungeons and locations, this could very easily work Oblivion, because there's a million places to refer to, consequently this is also how it does work when you you can't follow the quest arrow.

I've gotten lost because of stupid stuff like missing road signs, or the npc assuming I know where stuff already is, and I can't ask them about it. Like the quest for hostile mudcraps, it tells you to leave ald ruhn on the west side and take the road towards Gnisis, but you haven't been to gnisis, and Gnisis isn't a topic she can talk about, and there's no road sign showing you the way to gnisis. Then it talks about what you need to do when you get into the hills, but Morrowind is entirely made up of hills, so this is like say, "when you start to walk on dirt", so not only can't you take the road to Gnisis, because you don't know what road that is, and you can't ask the person who apparently knows about the way to Gnisis, but assuming you did take the road to Gnisis, your supposed to reach some hills before continuing with the rest of the directions, which tells you [censored] about when to continue, because your surrounded by elevations that can be classified as hills.

So what you have left is that the farm in trouble is due west, so you walk west, but you don't know for how long, you just walk west, and hope you'll walk over it, which is highly unlikely, because you can't walk in a straight direction because of the landscape.

We have to identify the problems better to find the real solutions for it.

1. You might got confused even if the directions are clear. Leading to frustration.
- To be able to mark locations on map would be nice. To be able to ask others for directions, as in pointing or guiding to the place if it is specific.

2. The trip being tedious, the need to fight many spawns on the road losing all supplies.
- Better AI. Natural wildlife won't always attack us on sight. If hurt, many will flee.

3. High level content for low level player.
- This has a number of implications. At least we agree on this being strictly related to quests. Because explored content is different. We explore the world to find out information about the world. Like identifying dangerous and friendly places. This should not be leveled according to player. Quests from factions can check player skills so the early quests can be tutorial level where later advancements unlocking harder ones. Random quests can be altered according to player, why not? Not level based, but skills based though.


I am leaving it to you to figure out where Morrowind, Skyrim and Oblivion are related to all these.


"Oblivion is cramped up with different places." Cramped up, yes. Different? This is just another case of less is more. It is obvious some thought went to placing things in Morrowind so they can be referred to some other major place. There are many third grade places around a point, the directions would be like "walk 30 meters to north until you reach a cave then turn and walk 20 meters more to east to another cave" which wouldn't work. They would need a better LOD system too. With that LOD system, it would be very misleading. "walk until it pops-in". So maybe a technical thing. I wish I knew what's it with Oblivion.

The other things you mentioned are things which are fixable with some QA. Not a problem of the system itself. It can be improved, could use additional complementary things... But removing it for a GPS system!?

I guess it's just a difference in play style. :shrug: In Morrowind the adventure is half of the quest to me. And the feeling that you are actually in a dangerous world makes it that much better.

This is why I get confused when people say things like what I just bolded from your post. Take a look at the definition of the word http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/quest.

Well, to me there is a balance between everything. I think Morrowind was too cumbersome and frustrating, and Oblivion too handholding. I hope Skyrim can be something in between.

I hope so too.

Well the caves have names, so the PC would not just be searching for random caves.



The "GPS" system is just an extension of what you would do yourself. The morrowind system has an inherent flaw, in that relying on directions for anything other than Roleplay consistency isn't realistic when you have a map. Anyone who knows directions to something, can and should be able to mark it on a map, even if they don't know the specific location, they can mark the region or general area, always. If Morrowind was a real place and I was really there, than I would never get lost, because I would always talk directions over with the quest giver, making sure I understood everything clearly, and have him mark everything from the location to the signs that I need to look for in order to know that I am on the right track. Because you see, Morrowinds system is already a GPS system, you always know where you are and which way you're pointing, even without a compass, which is the main feature of a Global Positioning System, knowing exactly where you are relative to everything else.

If anyone was really interested in this hiking thing, they would argue that you shouldn't be able to see your own location on the map, and then have a lot of information about the surroundings already marked on the map itself, because this is how it's done for real. This would also usurp most troubles with being lost, because you already know the location of your goal, either because it already was on the map, or because a quest giver has marked it. And your problem is to figure out where you are, relative to your destination, exactly like in real life.

In game, quest is more synonymous with Mission though, because there aren't really that many quests where the main goal is to find something, even though this is what the word means. The point of most of the quests are for you to perform a task, beyond finding something, most quest givers already know where wherever you need to go is.

The GPS system is an arrow that literally points to where you want to go. It's like a modern-day GPS. It's also meta-game. No one else has a GPS. Just like fast travel.

If I give someone directions to a place that I've personally visited (IRL), I might not be able to mark it on a map but I could say "go past the funny-looking tree, turn left at the pond and walk until you see a large rock". Especially if it's a map of the whole continent. I couldn't take a map of Australia and mark some certain cave on it, even if I've been to the cave before, because ithe scale of the map is too big for it to be possible for me to mark the exact location of the cave. I'd mark a large city or town near said cave to help you find the cave, and quest-givers usually do mark something on your map like that. "It's North of so-and-so, let me mark that on your map" etc.

:shrug:

Double strike out,

The main feature of a Global Positioning System is that it can pin-point your position, relative to everything else, this is where all the technology is focused. Notice how in Morrowind you always know where you and what direction you are turning relative to everything else. The arrow is just a connection between two points, the thing that makes it a GPS is that it can continously pinpoint your location, and therefore make a new connection.

Fast Travel is not the same as traveling fast, it's a mechanic for the player not the character, to say that that other NPCs don't have Fast Travel, is like saying the other NPCs don't have a pause button, of course they don't, Fast Travel doesn't exist in game, when you (the player) Fast Travel, you simply skip the time that The Character, travels real time.

I'm pretty sure I could pinpoint somewhere I've been if the person who is in need of direction has a map, and if like morrowind, they have a map that is zoomable to their general location, I could definitely do it, at the very least I can mark the region/town, at the very least, I could make an estimate. Now if it is me who is in need of something important done, i would already have gathered the info that they need, from country maps, maps of where they're going, even if I had not, this is the first thing I would have asked myself to be done, if I were an adventurer.

Agreed.

And the thing is, more than half of those same folks who got lost still ended up going to sites like the http://www.uesp.net/maps/mwmap/mwmap.shtml anyways, and Bethesda realized this. Thus, giving most folks what they were probably going to end up using anyhow, which was an ambient in-game map-marker.

Which could still be turned off, if the user wished.

Yes, I remember getting lost on this very quest and for this very reason myself. The first time I did this quest I must have wandered for something like two hours, real time, before I discovered those stupid things. I can still remember the frustration of wandering around exactly the way you describe it. In fact, your description brought it back a little too vividly, lol.

By the way, that was an amusing typo in that quote.





I wish we did have an map like that. It's a great resource. Back then we went to a site called "Hannah's Morrowind Whereizit," a site created by a former moderator here that provided accurate written directions (often with accompanying screenshots) to the most-frequently visited places on Vvardenfell. Sadly, it went offline a couple of years ago.

I hope there are more unique animals and monsters in Skyrim than in Ob for sure, this aspect MW did right, I always had a sense of discovery in MW because I'd see an animal and think "what the hell is that?"...in Oblivion I basically always knew what animals were because they were either real life animals or copy/pasted mythical beasts.

A cave is a third grade landmark. Cities and towns being first grade, a shipwreck and huge ruins are second grade landmarks. The correlation between third graders becomes random even if they have names. But upon further checking from maps, this problem appears just by a small margin. A little cramped up and lacking uniqueness. Just a little.


I think the directions were clear and detailed and they should be for the system to work otherwise it is a problem in the execution not the system itself. And I think you could still get lost even if you live there, it is a maze with all those hills. View distance helps though. I never really pinpoint the location of Balmora in relation to Bitter Coast or Seyda Neen in my head until graphics extender. It might came as a shock to you but I don't use the map that much, there are road signs and travel services that aid me in my quests. I only use it as a compass and a world map. It was never a problem for me to figure where I am roughly with all those towns, cities and regions. If the world was bigger like Daggerfall, those things could be a problem.

World Map works as you described, locations are marked in time. You can get the information from NPCs and I think from books too. I don't think everyone would be that good with maps. Still this can get a better treatment like Troyatz's and your ideas, more sources of information and scouts could be added. Scouts are in Morrowind actually. They could use some improvement, other NPCs can point the PC to scouts in person and local guides to nearby places. For example a nice topic list "scouts" or "lost" would really helped Morrowind's case.

I am really bad with directions in real life and I get lost all the time in Morrowind but still I can find my way in the end. I can understand people are getting lost and frustrated. So I am OK for anything making it easier for you and me. But this isn't that GPS system in Oblivion. And when I said GPS, I meant those modern GPS navigation things.

When people say "They should do what Morrowind did", they mean they should improve upon Morrowind(and Oblivion). Assuming people are anti-progression(which is not the case anyway) is wrong. That was a lesson I learned personally in time. We are in the same boat, we are not that different from each others. When we see someone in an opposite opinion, automatically assuming they have other self defined "bad qualities" isn't right(so you like oblivion lockpicking, dice-roll combat etc.). Many things were different from Morrowind to Oblivion. Discussing these things is very healthy when done right. In my personal opinion.

Here is a nice thread series I enjoy following:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1170025-why-oblivions-fast-travel-svcks/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1170154-the-we-want-added-alternatives-to-oblivions-fast-travel-thread/
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1171244-improving-upon-oblivions-fast-travel-3/

See you there.

Your gonna have to explain that a little more clearly, because I don't understand what you mean, if a cave has a name, an individual name, different from the other caves, how is it not then, something you can use for navigation.



Sure sometimes the directions are adequate, I don't think anyone had any problem finding balmora from Seyda Neen, problem is when there isn't road signs, or your given directions which are way too subjective and can't be discussed. I think daggerfall even did it better, because you could ask people where stuff were relative to you position, and they didn't have the problem of knowing exact direction, but somehow being unable to mark the place on your map. Most of the time they either didn't know exactly where your goal was, and just gave you a general direction, or they did know the location and so marked it on your map. I understand if you didn't use the map much in morrowind, because morrowinds map wasn't really a map as much as it just was a picture of the island, not really that helpful in finding anything unless you've already been there, that people refused to show you the route, instead of tell it, didn't help either.

I still think Morrowinds system is fundamentally flawed when compared to the real world version, if Morrowinds system worked perfectly, it would still be weird why people knew exact directions, but not exact locations when presented with a map. And if we made that aspect realistic and allowed them to convey their knowledge onto a map, then we would just end up with what OB is.



I think most people find the way in the end, people aren't annoyed that they never found something, it's more that they had to waste an unreasonable amount of time trying to find it, because of something which at worst was wrong or inadequate (bad directions), and at best, non interactive, and unrealistic (non negotiable directions, extensive knowledge subject yet unable to mark subject on a map). As Value/(Time Spent) goes towards zero, so does your profit from said value. In any case, I understand what you mean with GPS, it's just that I'm saying the arrow is not what makes it a modern GPS.



When people say "they should do what X did", they don't mean improve on X, they mean do it like X, they might think there should be improved upon X, but nothing in "they should do what X did" can make you come to that conclusion. Discussing the differences are good, but people need to have a clear understanding about what X difference is, and why it is different, too often I find that people are muddying the waters and obfuscating everything. This just means half the debate is gonna be about what is what.

Besides, most people aren't interested in the reality of the situations, only arguing whatever argument that brings them closer to get their way.



If I'm not mistaken, I've already been there. In fact, I think I was there before the threads were even made. Most of these discussions are older than the threads in which they are discussed.

If you're talking about Morrowind... no, the directions weren not clear. They were not clear at all. In fact a few of them pointed you in nearly the opposite direction of where you needed to go. That is why Hannah created her Whereizit web page in the first place. Back before the interactive maps appeared these forums were absolutely clogged with players frustrated with inadequate in-game directions. But I agree with the second half of your statement. I don't see this as a problem with the system itself. I see it as poor implementation of the system.

I also agree with your point about Scouts. Most of my characters talk to Elone in the beginning of a game. She marks my character's maps for Vivec, Pelagiad and Balmora. I've always found those markers to be handy when starting out. It wouldn't have been a bad idea to put a Scout in every town, some of them equipped to mark quest locations as well as towns.

I suppose the best solution is to provide the option to toggle off the "Fast travel", "Quest markers" and "Point of interest markers".

Provide Morrowind style travel services.

Then design quests as if there is no Oblivion style fast travel and no quest markers and no point of interest markers and try to make it work that way.

I.e. Give the players adequate directions to follow on their own, and enough recognizable land marks in the middle, and do not suppose that there are GPS markers to help them about, and design quests in a way that could be completed without any of them, and then let each kind of player play it as (s)he likes.

• So you could rely on point and click fast travel and quest markers, to guide you around, and instantly jump to the destination.
  
• Or you could turn those options off and try to follow the quest log and directions given to you by NPCs, and look for land marks and notes around and find your way to your destination, using in-game travel services.

If there are available choices for any type of players, all will be happy.

And there can be some ini options available, that could remove the choice for one kind of players or the others, so that they could remove the choices as they like, and do not bother to think about the alternative methods, if they like it that way.