The problem with 'Morrowind vs Oblivion' debates is not so much what people say but how they say it.

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way and I'm not trying to pick on you, but this is an example of the kind of categorical, 'opinion-stated-as-fact' way of phrasing a position that tends to get on the nerves of Oblivion fans. It is this, more than anything else, that puts such a chip on their shoulders.

I hate to say it, being one myself, but Morrowind fans are the worse thing about Morrowind. They tarnish the very game they hope to promote. This primitive 'I'm right, you're wrong' attitude does Morrowind no good. Human beings do not like to be told that their opinion is wrong, that their opinion is less important than someone else's opinion. This manner of speaking is not designed to open up debate, it is designed to shut down debate - and that makes people angry.

It seems to me that gamers are particularly prone to think in stark, black-and-white, either/or categories ("This svcks," "That rocks"). Instead of saying "I prefer Morrowind," or "I think XXX feature of Morrowind is better than XXX feature of Oblivion and here's why..." gamers are too often prone to state, bluntly, that Morrowind is better than Oblivion.

Again, I'm not criticizing you, Troyatz. Actually, the reason I quoted your post in particular is because it is an example, I feel, of how this manner of speaking can creep even into the best writing. I'm sure I must have done it myself, more than once, without realizing it. But if we are ever to have a genuine dialog on this subject we need to learn to express ourselves with a bit more care.

Ah, yeah, I honestly didn't mean it at all like that, I was stating an opinion. :nope: I fully admit to prefering Morrowind to Oblivion, but I honestly ddin't mean to say it like that. That came out all wrong, I hope nobody got pissed at me for that. :ermm:

This man speaks the truth.

In my opinion, Oblivion is the superior game while Morrowind is the superior game world. Oblivion's leveling system is a lot more balanced. It's magic system is a lot less painful. And it's combat is far more fluid. It's harder to break Oblivion in two with exploits and the quests in Oblivion actually feel like your accomplishing something more than seek-kill or item-fetch thing. I dunno, it just seems more dynamic.

Morrowind has the better lore and more variety in terms of cultures, etc. THere are more paths to go down. But Morrowind is also very buggy. People complain that the compass in Oblivion takes you out of the experience. I say Creeper, mudcrab merchant et al also break the ingame experience in a similar way. And similar to Morrowind's broken exploits, you do not have to use the map if you chose not to.

I dislike Oblivion's choices for the faces and voices of Dark Elves, but aesthetically, that's my only complaint. Overall, I find Oblivion mostly an upgrade to Morrowind. Mechanically, going backward to Morrowind would be a mistake.

I agree. Its sad that the fanaticism of Morrowind fans on these boards have prevented me from enjoying the game as much as I should have... I mean from all the holy, holy worship of this game I was expecting, well... a lot more than I got. :pinch:

Also I think that a lot of people's nostalgia for Morrowind prevents them from making an unbiased judgment... :confused:

As long as we're being politically correct, I don't think all the blame is on the defenders of Morrowind, either. Many Oblivion fans are also pretty quick to state their opinions rather harshly, even without any provocation from Morrowind fans first.

All in all, we're all TES fans. We should try to concentrate on that for a change.

Open cities <-> closed cities
Travel options(Daggerfall or Morrowind) <-> Oblivion's fast travel
Morrowind level scaling <-> Oblivion's level scaling

I mean if next game has
Daggerfall style fast travel and Morrowind in game transportation networks
combat with miss and dodge/parry animations,
not obvious level scaling like Morrowind or Fallout style scaling,
open cities...

Will it be an upgrade to Morrowind or Oblivion? Or going back to Morrowind? Will it be an upgrade to the series? Whatever suits you best. Let's not fall into wording, everyone wants better and improved TES.

Now that Skyrim is coming, I can see the shift(and increase of the returned users) between Oblivion bashing to "more like Morrowind" suggestions... Since bashing Oblivion(or Morrowind( :nono: )) is pointless from now on.

People are upset because Oblivion didn't offer improvements over Morrowind in some select cases. Oblivion's improvements are obvious. Criticisms are because people want improvements. That's why you won't see page after page praising of physics, schedules, AI... People actually don't want to go back to Morrowind as is on those cases, they most certainly want upgrades to Morrowind too which Oblivion lacked on some cases. To think otherwise would be an insult to everyone's intelligence. Oblivion cornered them to that position because they have to think they need to be OK with less.(Open cities->closed cities->zones?)

The less above was Morrowind. :wink_smile:

We all deserve better than both, combined.

@Pseron Wyrd,
Well, Morrowind is the best game ever. It has the best theme ever. Best open world game. Best game experience I had(and still having) with Silent Hill 2. There I said it, is anyone really getting offended by this? If I go and write this on wikipedia then I would understand about fact/opinion thing. No, I still wouldn't understand it. "Best game ever" is always subjective because "best"(best, greatest and worst) shows personal opinion. Really, "the opinion-stated-as-fact"(no such thing exists, you can state a lie as a fact(mistakenly or deliberately), that's all. Opinions are always opinions.) and "it will take significant resources" are those two things that step on my nerves most of the time.

Just look what you did to Troyatz. She will have to think twice before stating she likes something from now on.
(j/k)
:P

Yes, I couldn't agree more with this, and I've tried to get this very point across several times in debates like this. I am also one of the few people on this board that loves both games. I actually say that Morrowind is the better game, but that I personally prefer Oblivion. I think Morrowind is simply magical, and it's in my top five list of all-time favourite games. Yet the tone and attitude of quite a few of the MW-fans on this board makes me sick of both the fanbase and the game itself sometimes. As Pseron Wyrd mentions, to some there seem to be very few nuances.Oblivion is crap,. and Morrowind is the holy cow that can't be criticized. And if you do bring up some positive elements of Oblivion, those get trivialized and handwaved away, as can be seen in this very thread. I do think Morrowind is a fantastic game, it's just sad that some of the fans ruin it by giving me a bad taste in my mouth whenever I hear of the game because of this constant bashing of Oblivion and mindless hailing of Morrowind.

So because you don't like the combat system ect. NOTHING from morrowind should be carried over into Skyrim? Morrowind had a far superior equipment system, far more dialogue, far better leveling (less level scaling) and way way way better fast travel system

People were annoyed at oblivion because sequals are not supposed to compeltely ruin what made the early game absolutely fantastic, aka exploratino and customization in this case

You're stereotyping. "Some fans" should be "a few singular individuals", I think. PseronWyrd gave me grief about not clearly stating that whatever I was saying was an opinion (it was an opinion, I wasn't trying to state a universally acknowledged truth), and yet here you go and follow up his/her post with a rant about how horribly deranged and psychotic Morrowind fans are. Not helping to further this conversation in any way or keeping it civil.

It really does take two to tango. You can't put all blame solely on the Morrowind fan base (and no, I'm not saying that they aren't to blame, either), and completely forget that there are also violently anti-Morrowind Oblivion fans out there. Apparently, even the ones who like both games equally are able to spout provocative statements.

EDIT // Not pointing any fingers, but just a minute after I posted this I noticed a few posts in this same section of the boards that embodied the perfect example of what I meant with anti-Morrowind fans I was referring to. Someone (completely unrelatedly to the topic, I might add) started an unprovoked Morrowind-bashing hissy fit. Just proving my point.


I just have to start putting disclaimers at the bottom of all my posts that include opinions...

NOTE: The above is an opinion expressed by Troyatz and in no way presumes to reflect universal truth.

If you think I was trying to get across that I think Morrowind fans are horribly deranged and psychotic you have completely misunderstood my post. I never used words like that, and I never believed or mentioned anything about MW fans being deranged or psychotic.


Absolutely. I don't doubt for a second that there are "The Elder Scrolls Morrowind is the greatest game in the history of the universe. and Oblivion is the holy cow that can't be criticized" fans on this board as well. And that is of course equally wrong. The reason I am primarily addressing the MW fans that acts like that is that they seem to be in the majority on this board. Thus the OB-bashing is more visible and takes up more space.

Not those exact words, no, I admit to exaggerating my point a bit. But you did say that they mindlessly hail Morrowind and constantly bash Oblivion.


I've personally seen just as much of arguments started by both. That being so, I don't think you can say that either is more visible or noticeable, or that either "side" deserves to be critized/addressed more strongly than the other. But I'm glad we agree that both "sides" are to blame.

Anyway, I don't want to cause any further arguments, so please don't take my posts as meaning to argue.

Some fans bash Oblivion mindlessly, yes. That doesn't mean all of them, of course. And there seem to be some weird auto-change of sentences on this board.

The autocensor takes into account conversations like these.

Haha, actually I liked the non-regenerating magicka, I LOVED the lack of a hand-holding compass, enjoyed the fact that magic wasn't easy, and spear was my favorite weapon I was so sad to see it go. Sure, the AI svcked (but not for its time) and the combat, for some people, was boring. The reason I like Morrowind better is really just about the game world. The version of Cyrodiil they gave (the mostly generic medieval fantasy world) was not exciting to me....I also liked having to think and figure things out for myself.

Oblivion was super fun, I just like Morrowind better.

Morrowind did have a compass actually.It was just integrated to the map and the mini map.The map was fixed at Up=North,and you could see the way you were going by looking at the player indicator at the mini map.Much more better than any compass of any TES game if you ask me.

Crappy Combat? If you have a low skill rate wouldn't it make sense that you wouldn't do much damage or even be able to damage your opponent?
Magicka can regenerate if you dont have the Atronach by sleeping, skill perks is crap anyway and only affects melee, quest compass is a joke (seriously in MW it tells you where to go, and if you ask around nearby or ask a guard you would even get the location marked on the map), It's quite realistic that if you're a newb in any magic school you would fail casting spells sometimes, Crossbows and Spears wasn't useless. Some of the better ones were Spears.

Oblivion had a lot of great stuff as well obviously but it was so dumbed down and easy in comparison even on highest possible setting that it wasn't fun, or Lore-correct for that matter.

You sir, are a hero. Finally someone who agrees with me, I'm sick of the constant whiney "I want it to be like morrowind". Hey guess what game has features similar to morrowind? you guessed it, MORROWIND!

If you want morrowind then go play if it's so fantastic.

Ahahahahaha the guy who started the thread was just asking for it. Like a lamb to the slaughter...

Even though I pretty much fully agree with him

Plot, feeling, ambience, immersion = good
Broken combat, annoying mechanics, not fully voice acted = bad

*gloomily puts on flame proof jacket"

Taking 45 minutes or longer to walk from somewhere like Tel Vos to Vivec is not immersive. It's tedious. Particularly with the ash storms and everything. Oblivion's fast travel is a blessing for people who get tired of gazing at scenery and the occasional bandit. Of course, I take the long way in Oblivion on occasion. But I like to have the option to do it the fast way also.

Take the boat from Vos to Sadrith Mora, and then either take a boat to Ebonheart and walk or use the Mages Guild's Guild Guide to get to Vivec. Don't walk.

In Morrowind you had alternative means of travel other than walking, just not fast travel. Silt striders, boats, propylon indices, Mark/Recall, Divine/Almsivi Intervention and the Guild Guide more than made up for lack of fast travel. I find this far more immersive and fun than just "click and you're there!".

True, but then there's the people who do want to take in the sights, and you have the option of walking everywhere and taking forever or running and getting beat down by the first thing you come across cause you're so low on fatigue and you can't hit the thing

Still, Morrowinds alternate forms of travel would've been a welcome sight in Oblivion

Well, let's look at it practically. What's the difference between the silt striders and the instant travel system in Oblivion? Nothing. There's just more destinations in Oblivion. And for most of the forts, mines, and ruins, you still have to visit them at least once. So, I fail to understand the substance behind the complaint of fast travel in Oblivion.

I have to disagree on this one. The difference is that Oblivion travel system is completely free. Plus you start with all the towns markers already discovered.
Apart from that though, fast travel is quite convenient, that's for sure.

That's a pretty big 'just'. But you're also forgetting that you could fast travel at almost any time in Oblivion (as long as you're outside and not in combat). In Morrowind, you had to get to a Silt Strider port. Morrowind's other fast travel options could even be seen as "better" than Oblivion in some ways.. Mark, for instance, lets you specify precisely where to teleport to (eg, right next to a specific NPC or shop, or inside some interior), instead of general world landmarks.. and Recall teleports you there without passing time. You can even use it while in a dungeon or in combat.

IMO, though, both Morrowind's and Oblivion's fast travel are broken. There's practically no consequence for using them (in Morrowind, you have to be careful at very early levels, but it's still not something you have to worry much about), which makes it more like a cheat than anything.